scriptures ignored by Trinitarians.

[Breetai]

Usually trinitarians ignore john 17.22. I've never run across your explanation before, you did pretty good, I had to think about it a little bit to discover it's flaw.

I'll take that as a compliment. Thank you!

To be honest, I thought of it on the spot... but I don't want to claim that my brilliant thinking game up with a new explanation. Being raised in a conservative orthodox Christian church, I'm very preconditioned to think this way. It takes a lot of effort for me to think outside my own paradigms and try to see things from other perspectives; whether it's your non-trinitarian view, or Vanhin's Mormon view. In fact, in the case of Mormonism... I try to make my brain think that I'm LDS. "I'm Mormon, I'm Mormon, I'm Mormon...". Probably a strange thought for anyone reading this, but it really helps me to see things in different ways. It goes against every fiber of by being (well, upbringing) to look at the Bible in a non-Trinitarian way.

Here is what john 17.22 results in with your interpretation.


++John 17:22 And the glory which thou hast given me I have given unto them; that they may be one (church), even as we are one (being)

if it were the same as then it would read

;+ John 17:22 And the glory which thou hast given me I have given unto them; that they may be one (organization i.e. the church), even as we are one( organization i.e. the god organization.);

your interpreatation results in God being an organization or it results in the church being one being. Either way it fails.

I was thinking about this when I was at work today (opps!). If I claim that God is an organization, then I'm falling into what is considered by orthodoxy as heresy (then again, so is not accepting the Trinity). That's not what I was thinking though. "++" is exactly how I was thinking of it. I was considering the church as one. That is how I've always been taught how to think of the church. Am I amiss, or do you think of it a different way? If "it results in the church being one being", how does that fail?

 

[Breetai]

The Greek word that Paul used here for “one” (hen) is neuter, literally “one (thing),”

Are you trying to say that when a neuter adjective is used, that it has to be a "thing" as opposed to a "he" or "she"?

indicating oneness in cooperation. It is the same word that Jesus used at John 10:30 to describe his relationship with his Father. It is also the same word that Jesus used at John 17:21, 22. So when he used the word “one” (hen) in these cases, he was talking about unity of thought and purpose.

Not only in Greek, but in every language, the meaning of words can change depending on context.

Right in the context of the verses after John 10:30, Jesus forcefully argued that his words were not a claim to be God. He asked the Jews who wrongly drew that conclusion and wanted to stone him:

How did you argue that he was not claiming to be God? What that really what he said? Just what did Jesus mean by "Son of God" in verses 34-36? Where did he get those terms from used in those verses? The Jews still wanted to kill Jesus after this was said. Why did they think Jesus was claiming to be God with those words in verses 34-36? Jesus never made the claim that the Jews were incorrect in their conclusions of what was said, but instead says that they didn't believe the words (v.38...though ye believe not me...).

I still think that you're reading outside thoughts into the text.

 

[2ducklow]

I'll take that as a compliment. Thank you!

To be honest, I thought of it on the spot... but I don't want to claim that my brilliant thinking game up with a new explanation. Being raised in a conservative orthodox Christian church, I'm very preconditioned to think this way. It takes a lot of effort for me to think outside my own paradigms and try to see things from other perspectives; whether it's your non-trinitarian view, or Vanhin's Mormon view. In fact, in the case of Mormonism... I try to make my brain think that I'm LDS. "I'm Mormon, I'm Mormon, I'm Mormon...". Probably a strange thought for anyone reading this, but it really helps me to see things in different ways. It goes against every fiber of by being (well, upbringing) to look at the Bible in a non-Trinitarian way.

humans are creatures of habit.

I was thinking about this when I was at work today (opps!). If I claim that God is an organization, then I'm falling into what is considered by orthodoxy as heresy (then again, so is not accepting the Trinity). That's not what I was thinking though. "++" is exactly how I was thinking of it. I was considering the church as one. That is how I've always been taught how to think of the church. Am I amiss, or do you think of it a different way? If "it results in the church being one being", how does that fail?

you say the meaning is that God the Father and Jesus are one omnipotent omnipresent god YHWH. Well, god the father is the omnipresnt, omnipotent spirit whose name is YHWH, and Jesus is a physical human being, so that would mean that a physical human being and a spirit being are the spirit being god. Which means Jesus a physical human being is a spirit. a human body is a spirit contradicts scripture that says spirit is spirit and flesh is flesh. It also contradicts Jesus own words at the end of luke.

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Spirits are not born of the flesh, and Jesus was born of the flesh, he is not a spirit being, he even directly stated he wasn't.

If the god that Jesus and god the father are isn't the omnipresent omnipotent spirit YHWH, which or what God are/is they?


As to your question, surely you do not believe that the church is literally one phycial body? or do you? I'm not being facitious, I have run into trinitarians that say the church is literally one phycisal human body.

What I get so far is that you are saying that the we the members of the church are one church just like Jesus and God the Father are one being YHWH. so you got 100 million saints being one church organisation = 2 beings (One physical one a spirit) are one spirit being.. That doesn't compute.

 

[Vanhin]

Just for the record, though I agree with 2ducklow that the scriptures clearly establish a non-trinitarian Godhead, I part ways with him on the question of the divinity of Christ.

Before this Jesus of Nazareth, whom we call the Christ, was born into mortality in a lowly manger, He was known as Jehovah (YHWH). Under the direction of the Father, He created worlds without number, whose inhabitants are the spirit offspring of God the Father. He is the Lord of the Universe, the Eternal God of heaven and earth. In all things He has been obedient to the will of the Father, and is thus both the Father and the Son.

I proclaim the divinity of Christ without any equivocation, and I worship Him like I do the Father.

The risen Lord appeared to the ancient inhabitants of America. They are the other sheep that He told his disciples he must visit. Here is part of what he said to them:

10 Behold, I am Jesus Christ, whom the prophets testified shall come into the world.
11 And behold, I am the light and the life of the world; and I have drunk out of that bitter cup which the Father hath given me, and have glorified the Father in taking upon me the sins of the world, in the which I have suffered the will of the Father in all things from the beginning.
12 And it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words the whole multitude fell to the earth; for they remembered that it had been prophesied among them that Christ should show himself unto them after his ascension into heaven.
13 And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto them saying:
14 Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world. (3 Nephi 11)​

Just want to be clear about that, is all.

Regards,
Vanhin

 

[Breetai]

Just for the record, though I agree with 2ducklow that the scriptures clearly establish a non-trinitarian Godhead, I part ways with him on the question of the divinity of Christ.

Before this Jesus of Nazareth, whom we call the Christ, was born into mortality in a lowly manger, He was known as Jehovah (YHWH). Under the direction of the Father, He created worlds without number, whose inhabitants are the spirit offspring of God the Father. He is the Lord of the Universe, the Eternal God of heaven and earth. In all things He has been obedient to the will of the Father, and is thus both the Father and the Son.

I proclaim the divinity of Christ without any equivocation, and I worship Him like I do the Father.

The risen Lord appeared to the ancient inhabitants of America. They are the other sheep that He told his disciples he must visit. Here is part of what he said to them:

10 Behold, I am Jesus Christ, whom the prophets testified shall come into the world.
11 And behold, I am the light and the life of the world; and I have drunk out of that bitter cup which the Father hath given me, and have glorified the Father in taking upon me the sins of the world, in the which I have suffered the will of the Father in all things from the beginning.
12 And it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words the whole multitude fell to the earth; for they remembered that it had been prophesied among them that Christ should show himself unto them after his ascension into heaven.
13 And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto them saying:
14 Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world. (3 Nephi 11)​

Just want to be clear about that, is all.

Regards,
Vanhin

Yeah... with all do respect Vanhin, I'm not touching that one.

For 2ducklow, I'm on holiday for a few weeks. A couple 15 hour trips worth of flights, four 4 hours drives, and then moving house in September. Father-in-Law in hospital and a stressed out wife to keep chilled out. Taking a Koine Greek course on top of all that (did Classical about 10+ years ago... but I forget most things). Crazy busy! I'll try to get back to this then, or maybe for small spurts in between. Same with the PMs. This Trinity issue is something that I'll have to get deep into eventually. I don't know if eventually means in a few weeks, or a few years. At any rate, I'll try to respond when I can. I've been in and out and around here for a few years, so I'm not planning on shying out.

 

[2ducklow]

Yeah... with all do respect Vanhin, I'm not touching that one.

For 2ducklow, I'm on holiday for a few weeks. A couple 15 hour trips worth of flights, four 4 hours drives, and then moving house in September. Father-in-Law in hospital and a stressed out wife to keep chilled out. Taking a Koine Greek course on top of all that (did Classical about 10+ years ago... but I forget most things). Crazy busy! I'll try to get back to this then, or maybe for small spurts in between. Same with the PMs. This Trinity issue is something that I'll have to get deep into eventually. I don't know if eventually means in a few weeks, or a few years. At any rate, I'll try to respond when I can. I've been in and out and around here for a few years, so I'm not planning on shying out.

I know where there's free on line bible college greek classes, you just have to buy the book, it's not their book its some famous greek grammar class book.

 

[scriptures]

I think the subject of John 10.30 is the protection of the Sheep, and on this matter the Father and His Son are perfectly unified, working for the salvation of these sheep.

 

[Breetai]

I know where there's free on line bible college greek classes, you just have to buy the book, it's not their book its some famous greek grammar class book.

I'm already half done the first course, and it's accredited. Unfortunately, accredited courses aren't free...

 

[Breetai]

I think the subject of John 10.30 is the protection of the Sheep, and on this matter the Father and His Son are perfectly unified, working for the salvation of these sheep.

I question your understanding of scripture after you said this, to be honest. It's fairly common knowledge that the Sanhedrin was on Jesus' case even more strongly after He gave this dialogue because He was attributing himself to God here through Psalms 82:6. I really think you ought to take a good heard look at how Jesus dialogue from John 10:30 on and Psalm 82 connect, and why the Sanhedrin (a safe assumption, I think) believed that Jesus was calling Himself God here. Again, if they were mistaken in thinking that Jesus said that... why didn't He correct them and save Himself? All He did was chastise them for not believing what He said. What did He actually say? You really need to do a lot more research to find out, because as it is all your doing is committing eisegesis.

You still haven't answered why you're equating Greek adjectives in their neuter forms with impersonal "things" and not allowing them to also be personal.

 

[scriptures]

What did He actually say? .

Hear are the list of what God’s servant Jesus said prior to John 10.30

Joh 1:51 ASV
(51) And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye shall see the heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

Joh 3:18 ASV
(18) He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God.


Joh 5:25 ASV
(25) Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour cometh, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and they that hear shall live.


Joh 6:27 ASV
(27) Work not for the food which perisheth, but for the food which abideth unto eternal life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him the Father, even God, hath sealed.

Joh 9:35 ASV
(35) Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and finding him, he said, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?


And here is what he said during the event of John 10.30

Joh 10:36 ASV
(36) say ye of him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?


None in the Book of John prior and during the event of John 10.30 did he ever claim any trinity.

You still haven't answered why you're equating Greek adjectives in their neuter forms with impersonal "things" and not allowing them to also be personal.

Mat 5:30 WNT
(30) And if your right hand is a snare to you, cut it off and away with it; it is better for you that one member should be destroyed rather than that your whole body should go into Gehenna.

The word “one” is neuter in greek so it takes a neuter noun “member”

Mat 5:41 WNT
(41) And whoever shall compel you to convey his goods one mile, go with him two.

The word “one” is neuter in greek so it takes a neuter noun “mile”.

Mar 12:29 WNT
(29) "The chief Commandment," replied Jesus, "is this: 'HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD;

The word “one” is masculine in greek so it takes a masculine noun “Lord”

1Co 8:6 WNT
(6) yet *we* have but one God, the Father, who is the source of all things and for whose service we exist, and but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom we and all things exist.

The word “one” is masculine in greek so it takes masculine nouns “Lord” and “God”

In the case of John 10.30, “one” does not modify a noun because “one” stands for a noun that naturally agrees with its neuter gender.

The natural way for a christian like me is to look for the same wordings in the scriptures.

John 17.11 will give us the answer.


Joh 17:11 ASV
(11) And I am no more in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are.

Therefore, the sort of oneness that exist between God and his servant Jesus is the same as the oneness that exist between christians.

 

[stelow]

I also am a non trinitarian but believe Jesus was before His spiritual virgin birth as the Son of man. I am a non denominational believer and believe in the deity of Christ Jesus.

John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning there was the Word. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.3 All things were made by him, and nothing was made without him.

Colossians 1:16-18
16 Through his power all things were made—things in heaven and on earth, things seen and unseen, all powers, authorities, lords, and rulers. All things were made through Christ and for Christ.17 He was there before anything was made, and all things continue because of him.18 He is the head of the body, which is the church. Everything comes from him. He is the first one who was raised from the dead. So in all things Jesus has first place.


1 Corinthians 1:24-25
24 But Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God to those people God has called—Jews and Greeks.25 Even the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

 

[Vanhin]

I also am a non trinitarian but believe Jesus was the Son of God before His spiritual virgin birth as the Son of man.

+1 stelow! The Bible supports our shared non-trinitarian beliefs, and therefore, grants us a seat at the Christian table.

Regards,
Vanhin

 

[2ducklow]

I also am a non trinitarian but believe Jesus was before His spiritual virgin birth as the Son of man. I am a non denominational believer and believe in the deity of Christ Jesus.

John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning there was the Word. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.3 All things were made by him, and nothing was made without him.

Colossians 1:16-18
16 Through his power all things were made—things in heaven and on earth, things seen and unseen, all powers, authorities, lords, and rulers. All things were made through Christ and for Christ.17 He was there before anything was made, and all things continue because of him.18 He is the head of the body, which is the church. Everything comes from him. He is the first one who was raised from the dead. So in all things Jesus has first place.


1 Corinthians 1:24-25
24 But Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God to those people God has called—Jews and Greeks.25 Even the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

Your doctrine is built on fabricated scripture, here is what God actually said, not the perverted translation you posted above.

(Rotherham) Colossians 1:16 Because, in him, were created all things in the heavens and upon the earth, the things seen and the things unseen, whether thrones or lordships or principalities or authorities,--they all, through him and for him, have been created,
Colossians 1:17 And, he, is before all, and, they all, in him, hold together;

　
　
　
　
Colossians 1:18 And, he, is the head of the body, the assembly, Who is the beginning, Firstborn from among the dead, in order that, he, might become, in all things, himself, pre-eminent;

(Rotherham) 1 Corinthians 1:24 But, unto the called themselves--both Jews and Greeks, Christ, God's power, and, God's wisdom


and I can show how the scripture you posted is man's distortion of God's scripture . Point by point.

 

[2ducklow]

Yeah... with all do respect Vanhin, I'm not touching that one.

For 2ducklow, I'm on holiday for a few weeks. A couple 15 hour trips worth of flights, four 4 hours drives, and then moving house in September. Father-in-Law in hospital and a stressed out wife to keep chilled out. Taking a Koine Greek course on top of all that (did Classical about 10+ years ago... but I forget most things). Crazy busy! I'll try to get back to this then, or maybe for small spurts in between. Same with the PMs. This Trinity issue is something that I'll have to get deep into eventually. I don't know if eventually means in a few weeks, or a few years. At any rate, I'll try to respond when I can. I've been in and out and around here for a few years, so I'm not planning on shying out.

I suppose you could logically say that 7 million people are one church the same way 3 parts of God are one God. But the problem is that you are saying 7 million people are one church the way 3 beings are one being. 3 beings are one being is a contradiction. So your argument is false, because contradictions are not truth. At some point, those who believe contradicitons, have to ignore facts that expose their contradictions. Because there is no logical explanation of contradictions, there are only illogical explanations of contradictions.

 

[Gareth]

Someone made the point that the human soul was eternal. I suspect that is another term for being immortal. If that is the case, then, why was Jesus resurrected from the dead if he was already immortal? Or, further, just why did Jesus resurrect people back from death when in reality he could of been holding them up from going, say, to heaven. That Jesus did die indicates that he was not immortal otherwise the whole point of him coming to the earth to save mankind would of been in vain. Only God up to that point was immortal, the Son gaining immortality as a reward for his faithfulness. He was, according to Phil. 2:9 given a superior postition for his efforts, something he didn't have before he came to the earth.

 

[timlamb]

Someone made the point that the human soul was eternal. I suspect that is another term for being immortal. If that is the case, then, why was Jesus resurrected from the dead if he was already immortal? Or, further, just why did Jesus resurrect people back from death when in reality he could of been holding them up from going, say, to heaven. That Jesus did die indicates that he was not immortal otherwise the whole point of him coming to the earth to save mankind would of been in vain. Only God up to that point was immortal, the Son gaining immortality as a reward for his faithfulness. He was, according to Phil. 2:9 given a superior postition for his efforts, something he didn't have before he came to the earth.

Jesus said, "Before Abraham, I Am", He said "I and the Father are one", He said "No one gets to the Father but by me". He forgave sins, brought the dead back to life, walked on water, turned water into wine, and desplayed His power over demons, and nature, calming storms and healing the sick. Demons even recognized who He was, He spoke to Satan with authority. No mere man could die for our sins. No mere man could live a perfect life. And no mere man would ascend to the throne of God to judge mankind.

Philippians 2:5-7 (New International Version)


5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.

Yes, Jesus and His followers claimed He was God, so was He telling the truth or lying or was He insane?

Oh Yes, and His resurection was evidence that In Him, we do not die but will be raised and made incorruptible. The resurrection is what 1 Corinthians 15 is about, the dead raised immortal. If you think immortality is not dying physically, you aren't reading your bible correctly. Read 1 Corinthians 15 again.

Matthew 10:28
"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I don't think anyone promised the body was not meant for destruction.

 

[2ducklow]

Jesus said, "Before Abraham, I Am", He said "I and the Father are one", He said "No one gets to the Father but by me". He forgave sins, brought the dead back to life, walked on water, turned water into wine, and desplayed His power over demons, and nature, calming storms and healing the sick. Demons even recognized who He was, He spoke to Satan with authority. No mere man could die for our sins. No mere man could live a perfect life. And no mere man would ascend to the throne of God to judge mankind.

Philippians 2:5-7 (New International Version)


5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.

Yes, Jesus and His followers claimed He was God, so was He telling the truth or lying or was He insane?

Oh Yes, and His resurection was evidence that In Him, we do not die but will be raised and made incorruptible. The resurrection is what 1 Corinthians 15 is about, the dead raised immortal. If you think immortality is not dying physically, you aren't reading your bible correctly. Read 1 Corinthians 15 again.

Matthew 10:28
"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I don't think anyone promised the body was not meant for destruction.

theway john 8.58 is translated in every bible is nonsense because it is not a complete sentence.

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.


"before abraham was I am.

I am what? IT only makes sense and is a complete sentence if 'he' is understood so that it should read,

before abraham was I am he.
just like ego eimi has 'he' understood in 3 verses prior to john 8.58 in that very same dialogue of john 8.

John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.


you will note that he is in italics in the KJV which indicates that it is not in the Greek. He is understood just as when we in english say I am , He is the understood object of the verb to be. The only reason he is not inserted in john 8.58 by any translator is because it is untouchable because every christian and his mother believes it says , which it doesn't, that Jesus is the I am. Analysis it, if I am is god's name then all Jesus has said is "beforee abraham was , god." that makes no sense. Jesus did not say , before abraham was I am the I am. that is how every christian, just about, reads it, and falsely so.

 

[Albion]

I suppose you could logically say that 7 million people are one church the same way 3 parts of God are one God. But the problem is that you are saying 7 million people are one church the way 3 beings are one being. 3 beings are one being is a contradiction. So your argument is false, because contradictions are not truth. At some point, those who believe contradicitons, have to ignore facts that expose their contradictions. Because there is no logical explanation of contradictions, there are only illogical explanations of contradictions.

Except that no orthodox Christian believes that there are three beings.

 

[Albion]

Someone made the point that the human soul was eternal. I suspect that is another term for being immortal. If that is the case, then, why was Jesus resurrected from the dead if he was already immortal? Or, further, just why did Jesus resurrect people back from death when in reality he could of been holding them up from going, say, to heaven. That Jesus did die indicates that he was not immortal otherwise the whole point of him coming to the earth to save mankind would of been in vain. Only God up to that point was immortal, the Son gaining immortality as a reward for his faithfulness.

It was only the physical Jesus of Nazareth who died. The Son had existed from all eternity and continued to have an existence and consciousness while the body was in the grave. Both of those points are affirmed in the Bible.

He was, according to Phil. 2:9 given a superior postition for his efforts, something he didn't have before he came to the earth.

According to that verse, he was exaulted and given a name above all names. That's not al all what you said. He was not made immortal, etc. by this.

 

[scriptures]

Jesus said, "Before Abraham, I Am", He said "I and the Father are one", He said "No one gets to the Father but by me". He forgave sins, brought the dead back to life, walked on water, turned water into wine, and desplayed His power over demons, and nature, calming storms and healing the sick. Demons even recognized who He was, He spoke to Satan with authority. No mere man could die for our sins. No mere man could live a perfect life. And no mere man would ascend to the throne of God to judge mankind.

I think you completely disregard what woden said, Jesus died and resurrected by his God. His God exalted him to a superior position. Therefore his God is superior and almighty than Jesus.