Scripture Manipulation...

[maco]

Just a last thought before I go.

Romans 14:21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak.

We as mature Christians, who know the truth, should not eat meat or drink fermented wine in front of a weaker brother. A weaker brother is one who believes drinking fermented wine and eating meat is sinful.

This is not rocket science.

 

[Loveaboveall]

I can see now that you are not here to converse with people but to prove that you are right and they are wrong.

 

[TrustAndObey]

I can see now that you are not here to converse with people but to prove that you are right and they are wrong.

My sentiments exactly.

 

[No Swansong]

As this thread turned into a debate and the subfora are not debate fora this thread is being relocated to the main SDA forum.
Please refrain frim debate on the Subfora.

 

[maco]

I'm not sure if this is where I post but here goes.

One step further, I hope this help.

1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving by them who believe and know the truth.

God clearly tells His people not to follow the doctrines and commandments of men. There are some who say eating meat is forbidden but from the above verse this is a commandment of men. According to the above verse it’s those who believe and know the truth that understand that eating meat is not sinful.

Now take this thought over to Romans 14:21.

Rom 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing by which thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

Here God has place meat and fermented wine in the same category. He goes on to say that there are people in the world who are following the doctrines and commandments of men because they believe eating meat is sinful. God’s calls them a weaker brother but for us who know and believe the truth meat and fermented wine is not sinful.

 

[thecountrydoc]

Well Marco, I see the mods finally had to move this thread for you.

For the moment lets stick to just the oiginal topic of your thread.

I will simply post a response I made quite sometime ago in another forum on the subject of alcohol and drinking in general. The thread was titled; "Do you think Drinking is a Sin?" If after reading this response you still feel you have reason to consider the use of ANY form of fermented bverage for ANY REASON, I ask you to think long and hard about your position. What I have said in this response is nothing more than an introduction to the subject. The actual "book" is quite long and very well documented.

"BOY, O' BOY, O' BOY,

This thread has covered quite a spread of ideas, opinions, statements, medical advice, bibical text and thier interpititations, indications of studying bibical history and even bibical language translation! It has even been suggested that what may be wrong for some may be OK for others! WOW!!!

At the risk of offending anyone who has posted here I must say that "there is somthing wrong with this picture"!!

Before addressing the topic at hand let me say that I do not intend to address each thought, belife, interpitation or pratice mentioned nor will I give additional bibical text. Rather I'm going to share some ways that each can evaluate there own position and arrive at thier own conclusions.

Too often, when there seems to be instruction on any topic that is not spelled out step by step, Christians forget the statment given, "study to show thyself approved". To study for ourselves means not only to read the Word but to use a very important God given ability to help us apply the instruction given. It is the ability to use logic. When study of the Word is used with logic, reason, and some current facts, each should be able to draw correct conclusions about any subject not just the topic of this thread.

In understanding the instruction given on this topic, drinking, we first need to use some current facts followed by some bibical "facts". With said facts in hand we can use logic about God's fairness, truthfulness, and the principals that should be used when applying all of the instructions given on any subject or topic. I might also suggest that the further study of bibical history as well as secular history may prove to be of futher help in understang actual practices and langueges as well as the total concepts and meanings of each text given previously.

Current secular facts:

Alcohol impairs brain function. Alcohol impairs our ability to use logic and reason. According to current studies consumption of even a single alcoholic beverage is enough to produce measureable brain impairment. More people are killed on our highways due to alcohol related accidents than all other traffic accidents combined. The number of homicides commited while under the influence are more than double those commited when there is no alcohol involved. The vast majority of all child abuse and spouseal abuse involves alcohol. "No", not one, single addiction can be started without a "first time" action.(ie. taking a first drink) A book could be written about the social, moral, and medical reasons for not using alcoholic beverages of any kind therefore I will stop here.

Bibical and Christian facts and principals:

God gave man a brain. There are two main functions intended for the use of that brain. The first use of our brain, the mind, is to communicate with our creator. ANY impairment of our brain power impairs our ability to comunicate with our Creator.
With our brain man was given the the power of choice. To make "good" choices we need to use logic and reason which is what puts..." man above the animals" and why God gave man dominion over all of His creation. God has never given anything that of itself is addicting to His children. He has never blesed anything that is self addictive. In todays Christian world any addiction is considered a sin. Anything {action} that may produce sinful behavior is not of God but is of Satan. God does not cause or condone sin. Any addictive behavior will produce sin. By studying the true charector and nature of God we, as Christians, can establish that God is fair and does not use different standards for different people. He is truthful. Close study does not find contardiction in all the Bible. What God gives He never takes away. His Word is truth.

The knowledge of the above "facts" and principals, coupled with a complete faith/dependancy in/on God the Father, gave Jesus Christ the ability to live a perfect life while here on earth. His every thought, action, statement or question was based in logic and reason.

So I now ask each poster to this thread as Christians to follow the example of Jesus Christ and draw your own conclusions and answers to the question. IS DRINKING A SIN?"

Respectfuly, Your brother in Christ,
Doc

 

[Loveaboveall]

Very well said Doc.

I would ammend the part about addiction-- Doug Batchelor made a good point in a sermon I heard. He said (paraphrase) that he believes God created all men with addictive tendencies. We were intended to be addicted to God! but if God is not in our hearts than we will find something else to become addicted to.

 

[thecountrydoc]

Hi Loveaboveall,

Most of the time Pastor Doug and I see eye to eye. However this time I must respctfully disagree. Perhaps its just simantics but as I see it, man was created with "loving tendencies," not addictive tendencies. Addiction is Satan's way of replacing true love. The word addiction indicates a lack of free will. God will never take away our free will, but Satan will not only attempt to take our free will away, he will also try to corupt it with additions.

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc

 

[Jimlarmore]

Chemically, alcohol is much closer to gasoline than it is to water. It literally effects in an adverse way every single cell in the body but especially nerves cells that die when exposed to it.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Jimlarmore]

I'm an ex-law enforcement officer. When I was attending the academy I went thru we had to take several classes. One was on alcohol and it's related impact on society as we became certified to run the breathalyzer. One of the things we did was to let some of us cops go thru an experiment. In this experiment the participants went thru a persuit driving course that we had been thru many times. We ran it without the booze and then ran it after one ( 1 ) ounze of booze. There actually was a measurable difference in just one ounce of consumption. After two it was extremely obvious and then at 4 most of the pillons were knocked down at the course speed.

One last thing I want to add. In this course they told us that there had been many studies done on prisoners in several states prisons. Nearly 90% of all prisoners were there for either alcohol related or drug related incidents that got them convicted. To put in plainly alcohol and drugs cause humans to loose inhibitions for doing wrong things.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[TrustAndObey]

I'm an ex-law enforcement officer. When I was attending the academy I went thru we had to take several classes. One was on alcohol and it's related impact on society as we became certified to run the breathalyzer. One of the things we did was to let some of us cops go thru an experiment. In this experiment the participants went thru a persuit driving course that we had been thru many times. We ran it without the booze and then ran it after one ( 1 ) ounze of booze. There actually was a measurable difference in just one ounce of consumption. After two it was extremely obvious and then at 4 most of the pillons were knocked down at the course speed.

One last thing I want to add. In this course they told us that there had been many studies done on prisoners in several states prisons. Nearly 90% of all prisoners were there for either alcohol related or drug related incidents that got them convicted. To put in plainly alcohol and drugs cause humans to loose inhibitions for doing wrong things.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

That's very interesting Jim! Very good example of how alcohol can impair you...even a small amount.

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

 

[mva1985]

People keep raising the question of drinking wine or fermented beverages. Personally, I don't drink and from the stories that I hear of people who get drunk and wake up with a hangover I don't think I am missing much.

People are going to massage the scriptures anyway they want. If the original poster wants to drink go ahead - it is between you and God. But realize from the lessons in the Bible that it does lower your inhibitions and can lower your will power to do things that you might not otherwise do, and may very well regret in the morning.

The choice is up to you.

 

[djconklin]

And there are consequences. And no do-overs either.

 

[maco]

Jesus drank wine and ate meat and so did the Apostles. Jesus was even called a winebiber because people saw Him drinking wine. Jesus is even seen in contrast to John the Baptist. Jesus drank wine in contrast to John drinking no wine.

 

[thecountrydoc]

Hi Maco,

You have been presented with clinical facts. Those facts have come from both medical research in the lab as well as clinical trials, and actual field experiments conducted by law enforcement. I might add that those "field trials," conducted by law enforcement, have been conducted all across the country, many of which of which were actually conducted under proffessional medical supervision. Yet you seem to dissagree.

You also attempt to refute both biblical principals as well as some rather direct, pointed, biblical statements concerning the use of fermented beverages, especialy wine.

From all that you have said you cause me to ask myself some very pointed questions. First I must ask myself, why have I spent so much time and effort during my lifetime attempting to learn about the human body? About its physiology, its anatomy, the psychology of the mind and the related relationship between the physical and mental processes and how each affects the other. Why have I had to explain to other faimly members, from small children, to wives and husbands, to family and friends that are octogenarians, why a loved one has been killed in a fatal traffice accident, when the loved one wasn't even the one that had had "just a couple of beers," and other driver was declaired "legaly sober?" It would seem that I have been lying whenever I have warned women against drinking ANYTHING alcoholic during pregnancy due to the danger to the fetus.

It would also seem that I have wasted much time and effort to learn about someone who I had always believed to be perfect. Eventhough he never gave into any temptation or sin are you now telling me that he chose to stand on a very slippery slope? If I choose to follow His example, as you would have me believe, does that mean that even if I don't have the will power to refrain from drinking too much its still OK, I'm still "saved," because after all Jesus did it? When I say that I've wasted time and effort, that includes post graduate studies. Did I missunderstand all of my teachers and professors? Have I been telling others a lie about who this Jesus Christ is? Have I been telling falsehoods about His charector and nature? Does this mean that whatever I personaly feel or think about this, or other biblical principals, that my personal feelings are acceptable? Or is it possible that I've just been giving everyone that I have told about Jesus Christ and His love, the 'old sugar pill,' and false hope?

Now Maco, if you are thinking of replying to this post, may I suggest that you think long and hard before making any reply. To use a variation of a very old saying; I have given you a lot of rope. It would seem to be very wise not to find out how easy it is to hang yourself with it.

Respectfully,
Doc

 

[djconklin]

Thanks for your great response doc!

 

[maco]

Hi Maco,

You have been presented with clinical facts. Those facts have come from both medical research in the lab as well as clinical trials, and actual field experiments conducted by law enforcement. I might add that those "field trials," conducted by law enforcement, have been conducted all across the country, many of which of which were actually conducted under proffessional medical supervision. Yet you seem to dissagree.

You also attempt to refute both biblical principals as well as some rather direct, pointed, biblical statements concerning the use of fermented beverages, especialy wine.

From all that you have said you cause me to ask myself some very pointed questions. First I must ask myself, why have I spent so much time and effort during my lifetime attempting to learn about the human body? About its physiology, its anatomy, the psychology of the mind and the related relationship between the physical and mental processes and how each affects the other. Why have I had to explain to other faimly members, from small children, to wives and husbands, to family and friends that are octogenarians, why a loved one has been killed in a fatal traffice accident, when the loved one wasn't even the one that had had "just a couple of beers," and other driver was declaired "legaly sober?" It would seem that I have been lying whenever I have warned women against drinking ANYTHING alcoholic during pregnancy due to the danger to the fetus.

It would also seem that I have wasted much time and effort to learn about someone who I had always believed to be perfect. Eventhough he never gave into any temptation or sin are you now telling me that he chose to stand on a very slippery slope? If I choose to follow His example, as you would have me believe, does that mean that even if I don't have the will power to refrain from drinking too much its still OK, I'm still "saved," because after all Jesus did it? When I say that I've wasted time and effort, that includes post graduate studies. Did I missunderstand all of my teachers and professors? Have I been telling others a lie about who this Jesus Christ is? Have I been telling falsehoods about His charector and nature? Does this mean that whatever I personaly feel or think about this, or other biblical principals, that my personal feelings are acceptable? Or is it possible that I've just been giving everyone that I have told about Jesus Christ and His love, the 'old sugar pill,' and false hope?

Now Maco, if you are thinking of replying to this post, may I suggest that you think long and hard before making any reply. To use a variation of a very old saying; I have given you a lot of rope. It would seem to be very wise not to find out how easy it is to hang yourself with it.

Respectfully,
Doc

First of all one of the greatest problems within the SDA, as well as, many other denominations is the when we begin to call something sinful when in fact it is not. This is what I have been preaching against in all my posts. The Bible DOES NOT teach that drinking fermented wine is sinful. To teach that having a glass or two of wine is sinful is to go outside of the Bible. One of the fruitful problems with teaching this is seen in your personal belief that Jesus would be sinning if He had a glass of wine. Do you see the dangers in these kinds of false teachings. Secondly, when one teaches beliefs that are not found in the Bible one will have to manipulate the Scriptures to prove their point. This too is very dangerous. You say that I disagree with medical science and law enforcement, this is a false statement. Medical science tells us that prolonged abuse of wine will cause damage to the body. We also now from medical science that prolonged abuse of anything even healthy food and exercise can harm the body. The key word is abuse. Medical science also tells us that a little fermented wine is good for the body, as a matter of fact, there is a SDA doctor in Tenn. who tells his patients that have trouble sleeping to drink a couple glasses of wine instead of taking sleeping pills. I also understand that drinking and driving is against the law. I, as well as God Himself, knows that wine will effect you. God tells us that wine will make the heart merry and this He says in a positive way. So yes, wine does effect us and too much wine will bring about a drunken state that is forbidden by God.

Just to let you know that I am a police officer and have been in law enforcement for the past 27 years. I started out working in a prison and then transferred over to a police department where I have been serving the past 21 years. I am currenty assigned to our adult major crimes division as senior detective. Most of my cases I find alcohol involved yet I cannot say alcohol in itself is a crime. Many of my cases involve sex crimes yet I cannot say sex in itself is a crime. Many of my case involve the love of money yet I cannot say money in itself is a crime.

The Bible tells us that the kingdom of God is not in food or drink but in righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. The sin of food is gluttony, the sin of wine is drunkenness and the sin of sex is adultery. Those who partake of these sins of unrighteousness will not inherit the kingdom of God. But will those who drink wine, eat food and have sex enter into the kingdom? Yes, if their done in accordance with the word of God which teaches against adultery, drunkenness and gluttony.

I believe unwarranted guilt and condemnation brought about by calling things sinful that are not sinful can burden people and produce a hard heart towards God. The Bible tells us that sin hardens the heart whether it's Biblical sin or a placebo sin.

Let us teach and understand what true sin is so we can live in the liberty and freedom which is in Christ.

Many blessings,
John

 

[thecountrydoc]

Hi John,

I really don't have time nor the desire to debate the obvious. Therefore I'll just ask you a question. You say you have been in law enforcement for 27 years and you have moved up to a senior detective. My qurstion is this; As an investigator, would I be correct in the belief that there have been times when, even after some investigation, you simply didn't have all the necessary requirments for the proseuutor to make the case in court. However, from your proffessional experience, you didn't give up your investigation. Instead you used logic and common sense to keep going till you found the necessary information for the prosicution.

So it is with the Bible, God's Word. There may not be "a thus saith the Lord" for every question raised, or a step by step set of instructions for every possible problem we may encounter in life, but there are very logical, practical, commonsense, biblical principals for us to use. The Creator of the universe is a creature of logic. When He created man, He made us in His very image, complete with a brain so that we might understand more about Him and the plan of salvation by using our God given gift of logic.

I beg you not to let Satan decieve you by diversion. Use the logical approach to everything that you do or say. If you plan on going to heaven when Christ returns, wouldn't it be logical to start living, right now here on this earth, as close to the the way that life in the New Earth is described?

If you still do not see the logic in what I have presented in this thread I would be most happy to arrange a debate for you and non-christian medical educators that would make what I've said in this thread sound very sophomoric.

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc

 

[maco]

thecountrydoc;
Hi John,

I really don't have time nor the desire to debate the obvious. Therefore I'll just ask you a question. You say you have been in law enforcement for 27 years and you have moved up to a senior detective. My qurstion is this; As an investigator, would I be correct in the belief that there have been times when, even after some investigation, you simply didn't have all the necessary requirments for the proseuutor to make the case in court. However, from your proffessional experience, you didn't give up your investigation. Instead you used logic and common sense to keep going till you found the necessary information for the prosicution.

The very first thing I do in my cases is determine if there is a law that forbides the act I'm investigating. If there is no law against what I'm investigating I go no further. If there is a law against what I'm investigating I will have all my ducks in a row when I present my case. What I see in the Bible regarding wine is that there is no law against moderation but there is a law against drunkenness.

So it is with the Bible, God's Word. There may not be "a thus saith the Lord" for every question raised, or a step by step set of instructions for every possible problem we may encounter in life, but there are very logical, practical, commonsense, biblical principals for us to use. The Creator of the universe is a creature of logic. When He created man, He made us in His very image, complete with a brain so that we might understand more about Him and the plan of salvation by using our God given gift of logic.

The problem with your above logic is that the Bible plainly gives permission to drink fermented wine, in other words, the Bible says, Thus saith the Lord, "thou shall not be given to much wine" and "Give wine to those who have a heavy heart".

I beg you not to let Satan decieve you by diversion. Use the logical approach to everything that you do or say. If you plan on going to heaven when Christ returns, wouldn't it be logical to start living, right now here on this earth, as close to the the way that life in the New Earth is described?

If I use your logic I would not be married for in the kingdom we will neither marry or be given in marriage for we will be like the angels. The way God call us to live in preperation for the kingdom is rigtheous, for no unrighteous person will inherit the kingdom of God.

If you still do not see the logic in what I have presented in this thread I would be most happy to arrange a debate for you and non-christian medical educators that would make what I've said in this thread sound very sophomoric.

Man's logic will never fit into God's plan.

Your brother in Christ,
John

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

I beg you not to let Satan decieve you by diversion. Use the logical approach to everything that you do or say. If you plan on going to heaven when Christ returns, wouldn't it be logical to start living, right now here on this earth, as close to the the way that life in the New Earth is described?

So you want to prepare for how things are in heaven. What if the Bible indicates that there will be fine aged wine in heaven? Is that Satan's diversion?

(Isa 25:6 NIV) On this mountain the LORD Almighty will prepare a feast of rich food for all peoples, a banquet of aged wine-- the best of meats and the finest of wines.

(Isa 25:7 NIV) On this mountain he will destroy the shroud that enfolds all peoples, the sheet that covers all nations;

(Isa 25:8 NIV) he will swallow up death forever. The Sovereign LORD will wipe away the tears from all faces; he will remove the disgrace of his people from all the earth. The LORD has spoken.