Scripture Manipulation...

[Jimlarmore]

Alcohol destroys brain cells by the thousands. The brain is the seat of the soul where God's Holy Spirit lives. When you intentionally put something in your body that impairs what your brain does functionally then you are sinning and defiling the temple of the Holy Spirit. Your body is not your own, it belongs to God.

What you are doing is trying to rationalizing the use of alcohol. We humans are master's at this so we can do something wrong and make it ok in our minds so we don't feel guilty for doing it.

You say the Bible does not forbid drinking fermented wine. The Bible does not forbid marrying multiple wives either but it shows that was not the pattern God ordained for His children originally. God did not say that drinking fermented wine was good for you and it certainly was not a part of God's original diet for supporting good health. Paul said a little wine is good for the stomach's sake. I can argue he meant new wine instead of fermented wine because wine in the Bible could be either fermented or new. Laying all of that aside you have to decide from a careful study what God really intended for His children. From what I can determine He certainly did NOT intend for man to drink fermented wine on a regular basis.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[OntheDL]

There are 19 different Hebrew and Greek words (fermented and unfermented) used in the bible. But all were translated into wine in KJV. There is no one verse you can say with certainty supports drinking alcoholic wine.

Show me where you think the bible says drinking alcoholic wine is ok. Bear in mind that in the biblical times, the wine had less alcoholic content than today's beer.

Science has shown alcohol destroys neurons, the connecting links between brain cells. This supports the text in Proverbs 23. It speaks about the nature of alcohol, not the amount.

A couple of sips of wine, I get the light-headedness feeling. An alcoholic will probably take 5 shots before feeling the same.

So where do you draw the line? Trying to find how much you can get away with before getting caught is called legalism. I'm sure Satan has alot of success getting people cross a fine line.

If you don't want to catch a cold, stay away from people that have one. To say 'let me get in a room full of sick people, just before I get sick, I'll get away from them' is comical and illogical.

 

[maco]

OntheDL,

I understand that the word used in the Bible for fermented wine and unfermented wine are the same. So how do you know when the verse is referring to fermented wine? By the context...

Noah was found drunk in his tent this tells me that he drank fermented wine.

People at the Lord's supper were getting drunk. This tells me they were drinking fermented wine.

Did you know that Jesus turned water into fermented wine? How do I know it was fermented? By the context...

There are more verses in the Bible regarding this topic but I'll stop here.

Too much of anything is harmful to your body. These things such as wine, meat, eggs, candy are not sinful in themselves but they can become sinful by how we use them.

Did you know that drinking too much water can kill you? Should we say drinking water is sinful?

 

[OntheDL]

OntheDL,

I understand that the word used in the Bible for fermented wine and unfermented wine are the same. So how do you know when the verse is referring to fermented wine? By the context...

Noah was found drunk in his tent this tells me that he drank fermented wine.

People at the Lord's supper were getting drunk. This tells me they were drinking fermented wine.

Did you know that Jesus turned water into fermented wine? How do I know it was fermented? By the context...

You can't say Jesus turned water into alcoholic wine. Because when He arrived there, they had been drinking for days. Would Jesus give them more alcohol to be more drunk? I don't think so.

There are more verses in the Bible regarding this topic but I'll stop here.

Too much of anything is harmful to your body. These things such as wine, meat, eggs, candy are not sinful in themselves but they can become sinful by how we use them.

Did you know that drinking too much water can kill you? Should we say drinking water is sinful?

Too much water can kill you? Not unless you are drowned in it. I have seen people vomit when they drank too much water.

You are apparently in denial of the fact that alcohol is bad for you, regardless of the amount. There is nothing wrong with water by itself. The same can't be said about alcohol.

A Justice department survey shows 40% of all unnatural death involves alcohol. 50% of all crimes involves alcohol. Alcohol impairs your judgment, period.

A drop of wine will still damage your neurons. But you won't feel it. Does it make it ok? No.

 

[Loveaboveall]

Maco,

I believe you have missed a VERY important point-- the reason for a person to drink an alcoholic beverage!

The only reason for a person to want to drink an alcoholic beverage is for what? the taste, the buzz... in essence how it makes THEM feel.

When we do something even though we know it is harmful to us (we know this because alcohol is a drug that must be filtered by the liver and the kidneys. The liver is what filters out BAD stuff. Even the smallest amount of alcohol must be filtered) it is called SELFISHNESS!

Our bodies are the temple of God and when we knowingly take something for the sole reason that we like it, knowine it is bad for our bodies, we are putting what we want above God and that is breaking the 1st and 2nd commandments which is a sin! If you are taking alcohol for a specific medicinal reason ( I can't think of a good one, but for discussion...) than it is not for selfish reasons you are taking it then you may say that it is not a sin.

But when you ingest alcohol just because you want to and you know it is not good for you, that is a sin becasue it is selfishness--- the root of ALL sin.

So you see the bible does clearly say that drinking strong drink is a sin, for all selfishness is sin.

 

[honorthesabbath]

OK--I'm back in this for a moment. ROFL!!

Someone mentioned earlier that Peter suggested using 'a little wine for the stomach sake'.

Now think about this. If a person has an ulcer or other stomach ailment--the first thing the Dr. will tell that person is to stay away from ALCOHOL! However, research has shown that certain properties in grape juice can heal stomach problems. Cabbage juice is said to cure stomach cancer!

But alcohol, being a mocker, cannot heal anything.

All one needs do is read the list in the bible of alcohol's 'hall of shame' to make an intelligent decision to abstain.

 

[OntheDL]

Alcohol is a narcotic. Some moronic doctors recommend wine for heart health. The truth is that the grape seed extract in it is a good anti-oxidant.

 

[maco]

Fermented wine is used all throughout the Bible. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad. When drank in moderation it's good but when it's used to become drunk, it's bad. This is very clear in the Bible, to deny it is to deny Scripture.

You can make every argument why we should not drink it but the Bible stills allows it's sinless use.

If your personal choice is to not drink wine thats good but it doesn't make you any holier.

You can read all you what into why Jesus couldn't have turned water into fermented wine but that still does not void out the context of Scripture which clearly states it was fermented.

The same argument is built on the sinfulness of jewelry yet its nothing when a lady has braided hair or a man wears a tie. Both serve one purpose and that is to beautify the wearer.

The Bible says, DO NOT BE DRUNK...no matter how much you try and exaggerate, one or two glasses of wine does not constitute drunkenness.

 

[honorthesabbath]

Fermented wine is used all throughout the Bible. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad. When drank in moderation it's good but when it's used to become drunk, it's bad. This is very clear in the Bible, to deny it is to deny Scripture.

You can make every argument why we should not drink it but the Bible stills allows it's sinless use.

If your personal choice is to not drink wine thats good but it doesn't make you any holier.

You can read all you what into why Jesus couldn't have turned water into fermented wine but that still does not void out the context of Scripture which clearly states it was fermented.

The same argument is built on the sinfulness of jewelry yet its nothing when a lady has braided hair or a man wears a tie. Both serve one purpose and that is to beautify the wearer.

The Bible says, DO NOT BE DRUNK...no matter how much you try and exaggerate, one or two glasses of wine does not constitute drunkenness.

Ok Mac---believe what ever perverted interpretation of the bible you want-but better scholars then you think otherwise.

Just do me a favor and stop calling Jesus a bootlegger!

 

[Loveaboveall]

Do you think the same applies to people who are overweight? What about obese? Isn't heart disease the number one killer in the U.S?

Most definitely, gluttony is a sin! In our society we have been conditioned to accept selfishness as long as it is within societal norms. God does not accept this. He wants our WHOLE heart. Jesus is our example of how to live on this earth. Jesus would not even make himself some food when he hadn't eaten for forty days. How many if they had the power to do this would rationalize it away. Jesus lived His whole life in complete submission to the Father, not one act of His was done out of want for Himself, which we call selfishnes.

Humility is what Jesus taught throughout His ministry on earth. Humility at its very essence is denying what we want and submitting to what God asks of us. Whenever we do something for the sole purpose of pleasing ourselves it is selfishness. We are all guilty of it, but that doesn't make it okay. That is the work God is doing in each christian life. He is working to bring about a change in us, most of the time through trials, so that we may humble ourselves before Him. That is what we call the journey to sanctification.

I realize that what I am saying may step on some toes and bring some strong disagreement from people, but this is what Jesus taught, not me.

Luke 9:23, "And he said to [them] all, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

 

[freeindeed2]

Most definitely, gluttony is a sin! In our society we have been conditioned to accept selfishness as long as it is within societal norms. God does not accept this. He wants our WHOLE heart. Jesus is our example of how to live on this earth. Jesus would not even make himself some food when he hadn't eaten for forty days. How many if they had the power to do this would rationalize it away. Jesus lived His whole life in complete submission to the Father, not one act of His was done out of want for Himself, which we call selfishnes.

Humility is what Jesus taught throughout His ministry on earth. Humility at its very essence is denying what we want and submitting to what God asks of us. Whenever we do something for the sole purpose of pleasing ourselves it is selfishness. We are all guilty of it, but that doesn't make it okay. That is the work God is doing in each christian life. He is working to bring about a change in us, most of the time through trials, so that we may humble ourselves before Him. That is what we call the journey to sanctification.

I realize that what I am saying may step on some toes and bring some strong disagreement from people, but this is what Jesus taught, not me.

Why do we pick on those who drink alcohol (without getting drunk) and not allow them to hold church offices or lead out in church, but have no problem with fat people doing the same? (Over half of the pastors I worked with were fat.) But they're allowed to lead out, teach Sabbath School, hold church offices, lead the youth, etc. Isn't that a double standard?

As far as our bodies being the 'temple of God', heart disease is the number one killer in the U.S., period. It's ahead of all others, even accidents. Yet we continue to shun those who drink alcohol more than those who are at a higher risk of dying of heart disease. And, the bottom line is this: our 'temples' will all still die, as have all the 'temples' throughout the history of the earth. Our lives are but a blip in history, and then we will die too. It could even be today. (I hear walking in front of a bus could be hazardous to our health, but we wouldn't judge someone for doing it. We call it an accident, even though they stepped off the curb of their own 'free will'. But we will judge someone who drinks wine with their meals once or twice a week and lives to be 90.) Maybe we should stop trying to judge everyone else and lift up Jesus Christ.

Just a thought (or two).

PS-Look for the fruit of the Spirit, even in those who do the judging. We will know they are Christians by the love (agape) they have for other Christians. I wonder, if when we judge others for this, that, or the other, if the fruit of the Spirit is evident?

 

[Loveaboveall]

Free,

You are speaking of hypocrisy, not what is right and wrong. Just because there are pastors or teachers that sin does not mean it is not a sin, does it?

What we shun, unfortunately, is based more on society than on biblical principles. Obesity is becoming the normal while alcohol historically has been viewed by christians anyways as not so good. This does not mean it is right but it is the reality of the christian faith today.

As a seventhday adventist I have a health message from Mrs. White that is even today far above the times. Science is continuing to prove what she said over a hundred years ago to be correct. However, even though adventists have this message they are not following it and thus are hypocrites.

Here are two things from Mrs. White off the top of my head that she says not to eat:

cheese and processed sugar

How many adventist do you know that follows these dietary guidelines? In my opinion this is just as wrong as drinking alcohol except for one point... these cannot lower your inhibitions which will lead to doing many more sinful things.

You are right it is all about Jesus! Flip the coin here, If we can't give up some of these pleasures for Him than do we really love Him? We are all in a different place in our walk with Jesus and some may not have been convicted yet of somethings others are. But whenever we come to a point where we know that something is harmful to us yet we still do it because we like it we have just said "I love (whatever) more than Jesus.

 

[annie1speed]

"But whenever we come to a point where we know that something is harmful to us yet we still do it because we like it we have just said "I love (whatever) more than Jesus."

OW! (Hopping on one foot!)

Annie

 

[maco]

Did you know that life causes death? The moment we're born we're one day closer to death.

We care for our bodies by eating and drinking in moderation, as well as, exercise.

God tells us in His word that eating meat is not sinful but we know from medical science that meat can cause heart disease. So how do we handle this? The key word is moderation. There are many things in the Bible that are not sinful in themselves but they can become sinful by how we partake of them, for example. Money, sex, family, pleasure, food, work, and yes fermented wine. These things, according to God's word, are not sinful in themselves but God warns us that they can keep us out of the kingdom by how we partake of them.

Eating meat, cheese, sugar or anything else not directly forbidden by God is not sinful so lets not be like the Pharisees by putting burdens on people that don't need to be put on them. People know their bodies, they know when too much is too much, we don't have to lable things sinful in order to control people, this is what the Pharisees did.

Listen to what God says about exercise.

1 Timothy 4:8 For bodily exercise profits a little, but godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come.

It's important and a blessing to have healthy bodies but not to the point that we are in bondage by watching every little thing we eat. This bodage can cause a spiritual sickness through unjustifed guilt and condemnation that can bring about a spiritual heart disease.

Eat and drink in moderation the things not forbidden by God. Exercise daily in moderation to be healthy and blessed. Don't put undo burdens on yourself or others by labeling things to be sinful where God has given us liberty.

Many blessings,
John

 

[honorthesabbath]

Definition of temperance…
tem·per·ance https://secure.reference.com/premiu...://dictionary.reference.com/browse/temperance /ˈtɛm pər əns, ˈtɛm prəns/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[tem-per-uh ns, tem-pruh ns] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1.
moderation or self-restraint in action, statement, etc.; self-control.


2.
habitual moderation in the indulgence of a natural appetite or passion, esp. in the use of alcoholic liquors.


3.
total abstinence from alcoholic liquors.


[Origin: 1200–50; ME temperaunce < AF < L temperantia self-control. See temper, -ance ]

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

​

I find it interesting that the dictionary includes ALCOHOL as part of the understanding that ‘temperance’ is involved with ABSTINENCE. There is a reason for this Maco.

Alcohol is NOT FOOD! It has no nutritional value. You are trying to compare obesity with alcoholism—it won’t work. Even obese people can live relatively successful lives—they can even help other people. But a drunk?? No way! All a drunk can do is stumble around looking stupid.

Is there a street in America that has ‘skid obese row’ on it with a bunch of fat people in tattered cloths laying on the ground and who have no home?

Mac—which has the potential for more harm? Food or alcohol? Has anyone ever been arrested from driving while under the influence of a Big Mac? Does Big Mac’s kill brain cells? Does Big Mac’s cause you to beat your wife and kids as alcohol does? FOOD may harm the person who over consumes it—but it doesn’t harm those around it.

Mac—I cannot understand for the life of me why you would even consider condoning the use of a substance with so much harm packed into every ounce.

One other point. Food is necessary for life—Alcohol is not! The desire for alcohol is pure LUST. One can go all their lives without consuming one drop of alcohol and live a happy and successful life. However, countless thousands have lost everything, by starting down that road with ONE DROP!!

Think Mac—THINK!!!!

 

[maco]

Definition of temperance&#8230;
tem·per·ance/&#712;t&#603;m p&#601;r &#601;ns, &#712;t&#603;m pr&#601;ns/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[tem-per-uh ns, tem-pruh ns] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
&#8211;noun
1.
moderation or self-restraint in action, statement, etc.; self-control.


2.
habitual moderation in the indulgence of a natural appetite or passion, esp. in the use of alcoholic liquors.


3.
total abstinence from alcoholic liquors.


[Origin: 1200&#8211;50; ME temperaunce < AF < L temperantia self-control. See temper, -ance ]

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.​

2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;​

I find it interesting that the dictionary includes ALCOHOL as part of the understanding that &#8216;temperance&#8217; is involved with ABSTINENCE. There is a reason for this Maco.

Alcohol is NOT FOOD! It has no nutritional value. You are trying to compare obesity with alcoholism&#8212;it won&#8217;t work. Even obese people can live relatively successful lives&#8212;they can even help other people. But a drunk?? No way! All a drunk can do is stumble around looking stupid.

Is there a street in America that has &#8216;skid obese row&#8217; on it with a bunch of fat people in tattered cloths laying on the ground and who have no home?

Mac&#8212;which has the potential for more harm? Food or alcohol? Has anyone ever been arrested from driving while under the influence of a Big Mac? Does Big Mac&#8217;s kill brain cells? Does Big Mac&#8217;s cause you to beat your wife and kids as alcohol does? FOOD may harm the person who over consumes it&#8212;but it doesn&#8217;t harm those around it.

Mac&#8212;I cannot understand for the life of me why you would even consider condoning the use of a substance with so much harm packed into every ounce.

One other point. Food is necessary for life&#8212;Alcohol is not! The desire for alcohol is pure LUST. One can go all their lives without consuming one drop of alcohol and live a happy and successful life. However, countless thousands have lost everything, by starting down that road with ONE DROP!!

Think Mac&#8212;THINK!!!!

Extreemism is a technique used to get people to believe something that is not true, for example. In order to get you to believe that drinking fermented wine is sinful they will point to the drunkard on the street corner all beat up and dirty and say, "Do you see why drinking wine is sinful?"

They will point to an over weight lady wearing a huge fur coat with a ton of red makeup on and five pearl necklaces and a huge ring on each finger. They will make this lady look like a harlet and say, "Do you see why God forbids people to wear jewelry?"

Let us not use extreemism to prove a falshood, but rather, let us use the word of God to teach freedom with moderation...Amen and Amen.

 

[honorthesabbath]

Extreemism is a technique used to get people to believe something that is not true, for example. In order to get you to believe that drinking fermented wine is sinful they will point to the drunkard on the street corner all beat up and dirty and say, "Do you see why drinking wine is sinful?"

They will point to an over weight lady wearing a huge fur coat with a ton of red makeup on and five pearl necklaces and a huge ring on each finger. They will make this lady look like a harlet and say, "Do you see why God forbids people to wear jewelry?"

Let us not use extreemism to prove a falshood, but rather, let us use the word of God to teach freedom with moderation...Amen and Amen.

Oh good grief--I give up!!!

And by the way--I really do resent your opening line of the OP!

 

[maco]

Oh good grief--I give up!!!

And by the way--I really do resent your opening line of the OP!

I'm not sure I know what you mean by OP...

If I said something that offended you than I apologize.

I'm making these arguments because I'm not sure if I'm going to continue in the SDA faith. I was hoping that someone on these forums could convince me by way of Scripture of the sinfulness of jewelery, wine, theather and dance.

The funny thing is that I don't even drink alcohol nor do I wear jewelry or dance. But I know people who do and for the reason of these teachings in the SDA they won't come to church. As of yet I have not been convinced by clear Scripture proof of these things being sinful in themselves. Just because there are drunk people in the world does not make wine sinful nor does the fact that there is heart disease in the world would make eating meat sinful.

I guess I will have to really pray about these things.

Many blessings,
John

 

[TrustAndObey]

John,

OP=Original Poster or Original Post

OP usually just refers to the person who originally started the thread or it refers to the question originally asked in the first post.

 

[maco]

John,

OP=Original Poster or Original Post

OP usually just refers to the person who originally started the thread or it refers to the question originally asked in the first post.

Thanks for the help...

But I'm still not sure which one she is referring to...

Peace in Christ,
John