Scripture Manipulation...

[TrustAndObey]

Thanks for the help...

But I'm still not sure which one she is referring to...

Peace in Christ,
John

You really don't know? She quoted it.

Extreemism is a technique used to get people to believe something that is not true, for example. In order to get you to believe that drinking fermented wine is sinful they will point to the drunkard on the street corner all beat up and dirty and say, "Do you see why drinking wine is sinful?"

I personally don't think she was being extreme.

I thought she made some very good points.

Wine is a mocker. Scripture doesn't say "one drink isn't a mocker" it says the whole concoction itself is a mocker.

 

[honorthesabbath]

Mac--this is the line I was referring to--it's terribly demeaning to the SDA church.

Why do we, as SDAs, manipulate the Scriptures to fit our beliefs?

 

[TrustAndObey]

I'm making these arguments because I'm not sure if I'm going to continue in the SDA faith. I was hoping that someone on these forums could convince me by way of Scripture of the sinfulness of jewelery, wine, theather and dance.

The funny thing is that I don't even drink alcohol nor do I wear jewelry or dance. But I know people who do and for the reason of these teachings in the SDA they won't come to church. As of yet I have not been convinced by clear Scripture proof of these things being sinful in themselves. Just because there are drunk people in the world does not make wine sinful nor does the fact that there is heart disease in the world would make eating meat sinful.

I guess I will have to really pray about these things.

Prayer is always an important thing, no matter what the question is.

This is a non-debate forum, so what I'm going to say is in no way meant to incite conflict. I'm a Traditional Adventist and am not thinking of leaving the church.

Should we change what we believe in to get people to come into our church? Should we become lax in our views to get people to come into our church?

Jesus said (Matt 7:14) Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Isn't "baptized paganism" and bending "the rules" what created about 99.9% of the problems we have in our modern-day churches? I have no doubt that when people sat around trying to think of ways to get pagans into Christian churches, and they decided to bend scripture in order to do that....that they really thought "it was a good idea at the time."

 

[TrustAndObey]

Compromising what we believe in to bring in more numbers is ludicrous. I won't be any part of it personally.

A person should know exactly what a church stands for before they consider joining.

It's best that people know beforehand that we don't condone drinking. If they aren't willing to abstain from it, then there are plenty of denominations that put their approval stamp on it, no?

 

[TrustAndObey]

Mac--this is the line I was referring to--it's terribly demeaning to the SDA church.

Why do we, as SDAs, manipulate the Scriptures to fit our beliefs?

The BIG question is, what benefit is it to us?

Let's pretend there aren't any health reasons, and that scripture doesn't call wine a mocker....why would we try to manipulate scripture to say you can't drink?

I'm sure Adventists are just as predisposed to want to "medicate" the crazy world away with alcohol.

It's just silly to say we'd try to manipulate scripture to say you aren't supposed to drink.

Wouldn't it make more sense to manipulate scripture in a SELF-SERVING way instead of denying ourselves what MOST of the world indulges in?

 

[thecountrydoc]

Hi Maco,

This isn't a debate forum, but if you really want to try to make your statements stand up, why don't you start a thread in a debate column about what you have stated.
I'll gladly respond.

Doc

 

[TrustAndObey]

Hi Maco,

This isn't a debate forum, but if you really want to try to make your statements stand up, why don't you start a thread in a debate column about what you have stated.
I'll gladly respond.

Doc

As always Doc, you are a shining EXAMPLE!

When will I ever learn?

This is an excellent way to handle these types of situations in the future!

 

[maco]

TrustAndObey

First of all I would not want anyone to change their beliefs unless it wasn't Scriptual, Jesus would too. If I became a member of the SDA durning the years of Ellen White I would probably have told them that the Shut Door doctrine was not a true doctrine. I would have probably gotten the same response you gave me. Just because someone believes something dosn't make it true.

Why would the SDA manipulate the Scriptures to fit their beliefs? Because Ellen White said drinking wine and wearing jewelry is a sin. You even have SDA members saying eating meat is a sin because of Ellen White's health message.

I have no problem with a church obstaining from alcohol or jewelry we just can't call it sin when someone choses not to obstain. This is where the problem is. I say praise God for anyone who obstains from alcohol because of personal choice not because it's sinful to drink a glass of wine. To make the Bible say it's sinful to drink a glass of wine one would have to manipulate the Scriptures. If one calls something sinful when in fact it is not then yes you need to make a change to get people who know the truth to come into the church.

Now as far as which statment I made that made her resent. It appeard to me that everything I said made her resent so it was hard to decide.

I believe the SDA church has a lot of truth in it but it needs to make some changes. From what I've been hearing these changes may be coming but probably not in my time.

Many blessings,
John

 

[TrustAndObey]

Maco, I will gladly answer your questions in the debate area of this forum.

You're fairly new, so if you don't know, the debate section is the main forum. Don't click on "Traditonal" or "Progressive" links, just start a new thread in the main section. That section is for debate.

 

[TrustAndObey]

How'd I do Doc?

 

[maco]

When Jesus spoke the truth it came against many of the beliefs of the religious people in His day. They resisted the words of Jesus to the point where they didn't have a leg to stand on so they started attacking His character when this didn't work they crucified Him.

 

[thecountrydoc]

Hello once again Maco,

This still isn't a debate forum. Nor do I see you running to start a thread in one. But before you do, you should know that I really don't need E.G. White, or even the Bible to support her writings. I'll just use medical facts.

As an aside; "There is no such thing as being just a little bit pregnant;" "People change daily, principals never do;" Sin is a binomial form of logic."

Respectfully,
Doc

 

[thecountrydoc]

Lainie, I think you're a quick learner!

Blessings,
Doc

 

[TrustAndObey]

Doc, I wanted to tell you....I decided for sure what area of medicine I want to go into.

I used to joke that I wanted to go into plastic surgery so I could get "freebies". HA! But I decided after going through my first Anatomy class that I definitely want to be a neurosurgery assistant.

I did very well on the testing relating to neurosurgery, and it's what I've been fascinated with since 1996 (when I was diagnosed with a brain tumor)...so that settled it.

Thought I'd share.

I may end up moving to Little Rock so I can work at the Children's Hospital there. It's world-reknown, and I can vouch for the excellent, well-qualified staff there.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Lainie, I think you're a quick learner!

Blessings,
Doc

Wellllll, we'll see about that. I'm taking Microbiology in 5 weeks (instead of 16). If I'm a quick learner my grade should reflect that, right?

 

[Loveaboveall]

Maco,

Sin still comes down to selfishness. You may call me an extremist but this is what Jesus taught as I posted before. Please give me one reason to partake of alcohol in a social setting other than pure selfishness. Top that off with what Doc would tell you if you posted this in th main forum, you got your formula for something you should not do! It doesn't have to be just wine, you can apply this to anything in life. If you are motivated by selfish motives you shouldn't do it. if you are motivated to do something for the glory of God, by all means, go for it!

1 cor 6:19, What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

It is not this verse that is the most important in understanding why drinking alcohol is a sin it is the next:

Vs. 20 ,"For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

By drinking alcohol are you glorifying God? Again, it all comes down to glorifying self (selfishness) or glorifying God.

 

[maco]

What makes fermented wine such a blessing from just plain old grape juice is its ablility to make the heart merry, in other words, get a buzz going.

Psalms 104:15 And wine that makes glad the heart of man, Oil to make his face shine, And bread which strengthens man's heart.

Fermented wine can ease the pain of death and lift a heavy heart.

Proverbs 31:6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.

Oh don't get me wrong, God does not what His priest drinking while on duty.

Ezekiel 44:21 "No priest shall drink wine when he enters the inner court.

Lev.10:8-9 Then the Lord spoke to Aaron, saying: "Do not drink wine or intoxicating drink, you, nor your sons with you, when you go into the tabernacle of meeting, lest you die.

Because Aaron and his sons couldn't drink intoxicating wine while in the tabernacle tells me that they coud drink if they were not in the tabernacle.

Oh yah, what about the Nazirite. He too was not allowed to drink on duty but afterwards it was okay to have a cold Bud after a long day at the office, Bud light of course.

Numbers 6:1-5 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, "Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: `When either a man or woman consecrates an offering to take the vow of a Nazirite, to separate himself to the Lord,`he shall separate himself from wine and similar drink; he shall drink neither vinegar made from wine nor vinegar made from similar drink; neither shall he drink any grape juice, nor eat fresh grapes or raisins.`All the days of his separation he shall eat nothing that is produced by the grapevine, from seed to skin.`All the days of the vow of his separation no razor shall come upon his head; until the days are fulfilled for which he separated himself to the Lord, he shall be holy.

Numbers 6:20 And the priest shall wave them for a wave offering before the Lord: this is holy for the priest, with the wave breast and heave shoulder: and after that the Nazarite may drink wine.

What a blessing femented wine can be for thoes who know the truth. But for those who don't know the truth God tells us to treat them as weaker brothers and sisters.

Romans 14:21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak.

Many blessings,
John

 

[thecountrydoc]

Maco,

I've seen seen some pretty good twisting of what the Bible has to say in my lifetime, but right now you are competing for first pace. You are also trying to get the same arguement going in both the TSDA and PSDA sub forums. If you really think you've got a leg to stand on, why don't you follow my suggestion and take this to the main forum where we can find out if indeed you are standing or not?

Doc

 

[maco]

Maco,

I've seen seen some pretty good twisting of what the Bible has to say in my lifetime, but right now you are competing for first pace. You are also trying to get the same arguement going in both the TSDA and PSDA sub forums. If you really think you've got a leg to stand on, why don't you follow my suggestion and take this to the main forum where we can find out if indeed you are standing or not?

Doc

Hi Doc,

I'm kind of new to this forum stuff. I first posted on TSDA and it started then I was told to post on PSDA so now I have two threads running now you want me to post on a main forum...

It doesn't matter which forum I post on the truth remains the same you just have to come to realize it.

I have given Scripture verse after Scripture verse that shows us how God allows His people and priest to drink fermented wine. There are rules to follow in partaking of it just like there are rules to follow in partaking of sex.

To call something evil when God calls it good is sinful.

Remember, the sin of wine is drunkenness and the sin of sex is adultery.

Many blessings,
John

 

[TrustAndObey]

It doesn't matter which forum I post on the truth remains the same you just have to come to realize it.

Actually it does matter which forum you post certain things in.

http://www.christianforums.com/t2180188-purpose-of-traditional-sda-forum.html

That's the link to the sticky for the Traditional Adventist subfora. There's not any debating allowed here.

If Doc were to answer you, he'd be debating.

It's not a matter of him not "seeing" what you want him to, he disagrees with you and can't debate here.

The main forum is for debate. That's what Doc has been nicely trying to tell you.

You're new, so you probably hadn't looked at the forum rules. Not a big deal, you just need to know why we've asked you to post in the main forum.