Scripture as my measure

[LittleLambofJesus]

jckstraw72 said:

the individuals who make up the Church have free will, but Christ has promised that the gates of Hades would never prevail against the Church,

We are assured that at least some people in the church will continue in the truth until the second coming of Jesus Christ, for there will be true believers who will still be "alive and remain" at his second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17)..

That is how I read Romans 11

Romans 11:4 "But what is saying to him the divine-response 'I left to Myself seven thousand who-any not bow a knee to baal <896>'"
5 So then also in the present time a remnant according to the choice of grace there hath been;
[1 King 19:18/Revelation 2:14]

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

There is no better measuring tool than the Bible, in
terms of determining what is correct doctrine and
what is righteousness:

I'll just AMEN that.






.

 

[laconicstudent]

yay thread necro.

 

[Ortho_Cat]

I suppose we can just say "different measures for different folks"

Revelation Chapter 6 verse by verse - Christian Forums

Revelation 11:1 And was given to me a reed like a rod/staff saying, "Be arousing! and Measure! the Sanctuary of the God, and the altar, and the Ones-worshipping in him;

Reve 21:15 And the one talking with me had *measure/metron reed, golden, that he should be Measuring the City and the gates of Her and the wall of Her
17 And he measures the wall of Her, hundred forty four of cubits, measure of a Man, which is of a Messenger. [Ephesians 3:17-19]

how about same measure, different measurements?

 

[sunlover1]

someone was saying we have replaced the inafllible God with the fallible Church and i was just trying to point out that that is a false dichotomy

I understand. Lately there have been posters doing that with Scripture/Jesus.

In all fairness you have to take into consideration other views and check them against scripture using logic/reasoning. You may think you are in the 'true' church but a church is a church is a church, and only God Himself is infallible. There are many in the Church, meaning, not just your church, but all churches in the name of Christ, who will not be saved.

 

[sunlover1]

how about same measure, different measurements?

Welcome to my old thread about using Scripture as a plumb line.
Thanks to LL .. you can improve your juggling skills too!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Welcome to my old thread about using Scripture as a plumb line.
Thanks to LL .. you can improve your juggling skills too!

Takes lots of practice

Blue Letter Bible - Search Results for KJV
(plumbline)
occurs 4 times in 2 verses in the KJV

Search for 'Genesis 1:1' in the version

YoungLT] Amos 7:7 Thus hath He shewed me and lo! the Lord is standing by a wall [made according to] a plumb-line, and in His hand a plumb-line
8 and Jehovah saith unto me, "what art thou seeing Amos?" And I say, "A plumb-line" and the Lord saith: "Lo, I am setting a plumb-line in the midst of My people Israel, I do not add any more to pass over to it."

0594 'anak {an-awk'} probably from an unused root meaning to be narrow; TWOT - 129.1; n m
AV - plumbline 4; 4
1) plummet, plumb, lead-weight

Originally Posted by Bible2 There is no better measuring tool than the Bible, in
terms of determining what is correct doctrine and
what is righteousness:

I'll just AMEN that..

 

[ivebeenshown]

Scripture is indeed a measure, in that it is the authoritative word of God and tradition cannot and must not conflict with scripture.

Who is going to deny this much?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Scripture is indeed a measure, in that it is the authoritative word of God and tradition cannot and must not conflict with scripture.

Who is going to deny this much?

Depends on the "tradition"

Kindgdom Bible Studies Lambs Book of Life Part 1

*SNIP*
.......... Now, what is meant by this term &#8211; THE BOOK OF THE LIFE OF THE LAMB? The wise man said, "...of the making of many books there is no end..." (Eccl. 12:12).

The book stores are filled to overflowing today with all types of books dealing with every aspect of earthly life. Even in the church world there are books setting forth every kind of viewpoint relating to God, the Bible, doctrine, Christian experience, and church order.
However the subject material of most of these books largely contains a message of religious tradition and spiritual death............................

 

[Standing Up]

Scripture is indeed a measure, in that it is the authoritative word of God and tradition cannot and must not conflict with scripture.

Who is going to deny this much?

The deal is tradition and scripture don't always attach clearly and cleanly. For example, a tradition that is first recorded c250 or later would not necessarily be apostolic. We know that certain Christians introduced non-apostolic traditions.

So, it's not so easy. Groups have alot invested in their traditions. I doubt any would admit that they even have tradition that is non-apostolic, even though it's clear they do.

 

[ivebeenshown]

The deal is tradition and scripture don't always attach clearly and cleanly. For example, a tradition that is first recorded c250 or later would not necessarily be apostolic. We know that certain Christians introduced non-apostolic traditions.

So, it's not so easy. Groups have alot invested in their traditions. I doubt any would admit that they even have tradition that is non-apostolic, even though it's clear they do.

Alright, so it is not an issue of 'do we accept Scripture as authoritative' but rather an issue of 'does Scripture contain every apostolic tradition' and 'do these traditions actually conflict with Scripture or not', as well as what to make of groups which vary in interpretation.

It seems that there is a lot of pointless arguing over 'is Scripture authoritative' when I doubt anyone here rejects it as authoritative.

 

[Standing Up]

Alright, so it is not an issue of 'do we accept Scripture as authoritative' but rather an issue of 'does Scripture contain every apostolic tradition' and 'do these traditions actually conflict with Scripture or not', as well as what to make of groups which vary in interpretation.

It seems that there is a lot of pointless arguing over 'is Scripture authoritative' when I doubt anyone here rejects it as authoritative.

Right, no one rejects it as authoritative. But, I, for one, believe when Paul said, teach the same, that he meant that. Not teach something that's developed over the following 2000 years. But that is what some groups do. It may start at scripture, but then points to what happened over time. Easy example, is Roman papacy. Pretty sure they'd agree it developed. But as all the early church agreed, by definition, if it developed, it's not the same. The way it exists today is not how it existed 2000 years ago. Hence, it is not apostolic as the ECFs defined things. Obviously Rome believes it is apostolic.

So, we say, scripture alone is the way to determine doctrine. Others say, scripture/tradition is the way. I'd say, tie off your tradition to an apostle, then we don't have any conflicts because the source is identical. Groups say they can, but the fact is in many cases, clearly they cannot, yet they persist.

 

[ivebeenshown]

So, we say, scripture alone is the way to determine doctrine. Others say, scripture/tradition is the way. I'd say, tie off your tradition to an apostle, then we don't have any conflicts because the source is identical. Groups say they can, but the fact is in many cases, clearly they cannot, yet they persist.

Well, the clearest starting point is the notion of Apostolic Succession. If that tradition is truly Apostolic and to be held, your choice of churches is narrowed down... it may be time for an Apostolic Succession thread!

 

[Standing Up]

Well, the clearest starting point is the notion of Apostolic Succession. If that tradition is truly Apostolic and to be held, your choice of churches is narrowed down... it may be time for an Apostolic Succession thread!

Clearly the apostles appointed elders who appointed elders. But again, the question is for what reason? To teach the same? Or to develop doctrine/dogma?

I, for one, believe when Paul said, teach the same, he meant that. ECFs also say, the apostles weren't sent out until they had the fulness of the faith.

Another simple example. In 1950 the Roman Catholic church bound its members to believe the assumption of Mary. Clearly that tradition is not apostolic. If it was, we would see it in scripture or Polycarp or Clement or didache or hermas or Irenaues.

Now, RC may say we are the apostolic succession. But even if that is granted without question, does it give them the right to declare new doctrine?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Well, the clearest starting point is the notion of Apostolic Succession. If that tradition is truly Apostolic and to be held, your choice of churches is narrowed down... it may be time for an Apostolic Succession thread!

LLOJ goes on the hunt!

http://www.christianforums.com/t7477899/
Who is the first Christian to deny Apostolic Succession?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7522182/
Apostolic Authority Today

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Clearly the apostles appointed elders who appointed elders. But again, the question is for what reason? To teach the same? Or to develop doctrine/dogma?

I, for one, believe when Paul said, teach the same, he meant that. ECFs also say, the apostles weren't sent out until they had the fulness of the faith.

Another simple example. In 1950 the Roman Catholic church bound its members to believe the assumption of Mary. Clearly that tradition is not apostolic. If it was, we would see it in scripture or Polycarp or Clement or didache or hermas or Irenaues.

Now, RC may say we are the apostolic succession. But even if that is granted without question, does it give them the right to declare new doctrine?

Which begs the question:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7213672-200/#post46646526
Is Catholicism the same Church that the Apostles set up

 

[SullivanZ]

I searched the Scriptures and could not locate anywhere in the entire Bible the word "Calvin" in it! :o What does this mean...?! *gasp*

 

[Harry3142]

I have seen Scripture used as an incentive to alleviate suffering and provide for those in need. I have also seen it used to condone murder (the killing of 3 civil-rights workers in Mississippi in the late 1960's). In both cases it has been the church's leadership that has used it.

We've gotten lazy. Instead of reading the Holy Bible ourselves, we have acquiesced to the notion that if we attend church regularly and listen to someone else as they read a few verses of Scripture, that will suffice. There are even some denominations on the radical fringe which tell their members that they are to read the commentaries written by their church's leadership concerning passages of Scripture rather than reading Scripture itself.

I accept Scripture as our 'yardstick'. Our mindset is to be in accordance with Galatians 5:16-26. Our actions are to be in the practical vein as described in Matthew 25:31-46. Our attitude toward what we do is to have the humility exhibited in Luke 17:7-10. Where we put our trust for our salvation should conform to Romans 3:19 to 5:10.

But we are not to put blind trust in what others tell us that Scripture says. We're to open the book ourselves and read not only whatever verses they used for their argument, but the verses that come before and the verses that follow after them. The minister who insisted that we in the laity were all to consider the deaths of those civil-rights workers as falling under the heading of 'slaying the wicked' used verses of Scripture as 'evidence' of his being correct. But we know that Scripture actually condemns such actions. He was one of those who thought that he had 'cowed' his congregants into accepting whatever he told them rather than going to Scripture itself to verify or refute his teachings.

There's an old saying: "Just because a mouse lives in a cookie jar doesn't make it a cookie." We need to take this to heart. There are those who genuinely want to do as God would have us do. But there are others whose nature is such that they have no problem whatsoever in perverting Scripture so as to make it serve their wants and desires. It's through our own studying of Scripture that we can recognize these 'wolves in sheeps clothing' when we encounter them.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I searched the Scriptures and could not locate anywhere in the entire Bible the word "Calvin" in it! :o What does this mean...?! *gasp*

What aboutz M. Luther or W. Tyndale

http://www.christianforums.com/t7382164-126/#post52293555

 

[GQ Chris]

Well said Harry. The scripture twisting tradition is alive and well.