Scripture as my measure

[Fireinfolding]

As long as they are speaking His words. And not words that He has not spoken nor taught through the Apostles and prophets..

Amen sis, you can truly see how these work together

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Paul said the same...

1Cr 9:8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?

Rom 3:4 ... let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

"Judge ye what I say"... "to the law and to the testimony"

John 14:25 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

John 3:33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.

Isaiah 8:16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.


Psalm 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

2Titus 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

We have also the testimony of Jesus Christ, the Spirit of prophecy

2Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts.

1C1 1:6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:

I love that to the law (which is a light) or to the testimony (which is a light) if they speak not according to either there is no light in them, its the testimony thats confirmed in one as a light that rises in ones heart, these things are so kool! His words so rock sis!

 

[ivebeenshown]

weren't there a few fallible churches that Jesus told John to write to in Revelation

Reve 1:11 saying "which thou are seeing write! into a scroll and send! to the seven Out-Calleds/ekklhsiaiV <1577>.
Into Efeson, and into Smurnan, and into Pergamon and into Quateira and into Sardei and into Filadelfeian and into Laodikeian"

There most definitely were... about five of them... and interestingly these are two candlesticks that were found to be righteous:

Revelation 2
8And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
9I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
10Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
11He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.


Revelation 3
7And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
13He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Maybe we can all learn something from Smyrna and Phileadelphia!

 

[jckstraw72]

the Church is not referring to any individual congregation which of course has fallible people in it - The Church is something much bigger than that - it is the mystical union of the Body of Christ

 

[Fireinfolding]

Rev 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

 

[sunlover1]

the Church is not referring to any individual congregation which of course has fallible people in it - The Church is something much bigger than that - it is the mystical union of the Body of Christ

How does that make it different?
An individual congregation is made up of fallible people but all of them still part of the body of Christ.
The entire population of His church... adding ALL of the 'congregations' together
into one larger congregation changes what ?

 

[Fireinfolding]

This is an interest parallel

Prov 21:16 The man that wandereth out of the way of understanding shall remain in the congregation of the dead.

Rev 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

 

[MamaZ]

Amen sis, you can truly see how these work together

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Paul said the same...

1Cr 9:8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?

Rom 3:4 ... let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

"Judge ye what I say"... "to the law and to the testimony"

John 14:25 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

John 3:33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.

Isaiah 8:16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.


Psalm 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

2Titus 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

We have also the testimony of Jesus Christ, the Spirit of prophecy

2Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts.

1C1 1:6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:

I love that to the law (which is a light) or to the testimony (which is a light) if they speak not according to either there is no light in them, its the testimony thats confirmed in one as a light that rises in ones heart, these things are so kool! His words so rock sis!

 

[jckstraw72]

How does that make it different?
An individual congregation is made up of fallible people but all of them still part of the body of Christ.
The entire population of His church... adding ALL of the 'congregations' together
into one larger congregation changes what ?

well Christ is the Head of the Church, and the Holy Spirit indwells it. Any one person or group of people can be wrong, but the Church at large is the Body of Christ with Christ Himself as its Head and thus it is led correctly by Christ. Just as Christ is God and man, so His Body is God and man, and the perfection of Christ is greater than the imperfections of man.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

This is an interest parallel

Prov 21:16 The man that wandereth out of the way of understanding shall remain in the congregation of the dead.

Rev 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead

Hey lookie here who has the keys of death and hades!

Reve 1:18 and the living One! And I became dead, and behold, I am living into the Ages of the Ages,
and I am having the Keys of the Hades and of the Death

Reve 6:8 And I saw and behold! a green horse and the one sitting up on it a name to him the death, and the hades followed with him.
And was given to them authority upon the fourth of the land to-kill in sword and in famine and in death and by the beasts of the land.

 

[sunlover1]

well Christ is the Head of the Church, and the Holy Spirit indwells it.

Knew that

Any one person or group of people can be wrong, but the Church at large is the Body of Christ with Christ Himself as its Head and thus it is led correctly by Christ.

I appreciate your answer but this makes no sense to me.
If any one person or 'GROUP' of people "can be wrong"
.. as you suggested above..
Then the logical conclusion is that "THE" group can be wrong.

 

[jckstraw72]

Knew that

I appreciate your answer but this makes no sense to me.
If any one person or 'GROUP' of people "can be wrong"
.. as you suggested above..
Then the logical conclusion is that "THE" group can be wrong.

because we all have free will we can fall into error, and even a faction within the Body can fall into error because of the free will of individuals. However, the Church at large can never adopt falsehood because it is preserved by the presence of Christ and the Holy Spirit - the Church is 100% God in addition to 100% man! Even when erroneous factions exist within the larger body, the Spirit ensures that the Truth prevails.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Hey lookie here who has the keys of death and hades!

Reve 1:18 and the living One! And I became dead, and behold, I am living into the Ages of the Ages,
and I am having the Keys of the Hades and of the Death

Reve 6:8 And I saw and behold! a green horse and the one sitting up on it a name to him the death, and the hades followed with him.
And was given to them authority upon the fourth of the land to-kill in sword and in famine and in death and by the beasts of the land.

Yes, it was the one who has those keys that said that

 

[Kepha]

Scripture doesn't call the Church the pillar and
ground of the truth, but God Himself:

1 Timothy 3:15 ... the living God, the pillar and
ground of the truth.

lol, talk about snipping out a major part of the verse to twist your point across. I'll empasize in larger texts the key points you left out just so others can't miss it this time around.

But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Jesus is the living God and He Himself is the truth:

John 14:6 ...Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the
truth, and the life ...

Catholics do not dispute this.

Any teaching of the Church has to be checked against
the teachings of Jesus Himself in the Bible; we are
to be like those who:

Acts 17:11 ... searched the scriptures daily, whether
those things were so ...

They weren't part of the flock at the time so it's all they had to check against. And one would be a fool to think the early converts 'ONLY' read their OT since we know that Paul taught Timothy who KNEW his OT.

Sadly though, there will always be individuals who prevert the scriptures and believe that they are walking in line with them. The scriptures should be the only tool by which we measure our teachings/doctrines/etc. For in them we find life. If you can't follow the scriptures than you'll be willing to follow anything. Being blown about by every wind of doctrine if you will.

Jesus held up the scriptures,and had the nerve to say they were wrong.

Matt 22:29 But Jesus answered them, &#8220;You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God.

Jesus, being the Infallible Interpreter of Scripture has every right to preach what they do not know or can't see from His Written Word. Also the OT is pretty much all the Jews had at the time I would think. So that would be the stepping stone. Use something they trust in to open their eyes so long as their hearts are open. An infallible intepreter showing them from the OT what they missed first time around. Beautiful isn't it.

But to listen to little individuals like yourself who 'think' you are being led by the Spirit? Well I think I'll have to give that one a pass.

 

[ivebeenshown]

But to listen to little individuals like yourself who 'think' you are being led by the Spirit? Well I think I'll have to give that one a pass.

In all fairness you have to take into consideration other views and check them against scripture using logic/reasoning. You may think you are in the 'true' church but a church is a church is a church, and only God Himself is infallible. There are many in the Church, meaning, not just your church, but all churches in the name of Christ, who will not be saved.

 

[sunlover1]

because we all have free will we can fall into error,

So then you're saying that "The Church" does not have free will?

 

[Bible2]

Rdr Iakovos said:

Here you are setting up a false dichotomy- Church
or scripture.
Scripture is the measure (kanona) and the Church wields it, judges that which is built-again, by scripture.

How is that a false dichotomy, when the church consists of fallible men (Galatians 2:11-14, John 18:17), but scripture is infallible (2 Timothy 3:16)?

Rdr Iakovos said:

The answer to your question is as follows: 2000 years into it, we have neither taken nor passed such a vote. There are heterodox groups that have.

What makes heterodox groups heterodox but their refusal to accept the sound doctrine of scripture (2 Timothy 3:16, 2 Timothy 4:2-4)?

Rdr Iakovos said:

Did not Paul oppose Peter to his face?

Yes. What was said that implied he didn't?

Rdr Iakovos said:

Did Peter cease then to be an Apostle?

No. What was said that implied he did?

Rdr Iakovos said:

Your interpretation of 1 Tim 3:15 is absurd, and as contrived as the JW interpretation of John 1 "and the Word was a God (emphasis and misguided theology theirs). The notion that pillar and ground of truth refers back to God, not to the Church, is a ridiculous and horrible construction in Greek, and is only chosen by those who refuse to acknowledge the authority of the Church.

How has interpreting 1 Timothy 3:15 to mean that the living God is the pillar and ground of the truth been proven absurd, contrived, a ridiculous and horrible construction in Greek, or a refusal to acknowledge the authority of church leaders?

Rdr Iakovos said:

The people in the Church- including presiding bishops- are fallible.

If both the people and their bishops are fallible, then the entire church is fallible. And so it makes no sense to claim that the fallible church is the pillar and ground of the truth, instead of the infallible God himself and his infallible word being the pillar and ground of the truth (1 Timothy 3:15, John 14:6, 2 Timothy 3:16, John 17:17, Acts 17:11, John 8:31).

Rdr Iakovos said:

The gates of hell will not prevail against the Body, the Church, however.

How does Matthew 16:18 require that the church is the pillar and ground of the truth?

Rdr Iakovos said:

Tell it to the Church? Obey the elders given charge of your soul?

How does Matthew 18:17 or Hebrews 13:17 require that the church is the pillar and ground of the truth? Should the leaders of the church still be obeyed if they wrongly employ their free will to lead us away from the truth of God's word (cf. Acts 5:29, Galatians 2:5, Galatians 2:14)?

The way to be kept from being led astray by the leaders of the church or by ourselves (2 Timothy 4:3-4, 1 Timothy 4:1, Mark 8:35-38) is to be diligent to always look to God himself and his infallible word as the pillar and ground of the truth (1 Timothy 3:15, John 14:6, 2 Timothy 3:16, John 17:17, Acts 17:11, John 8:31).

 

[Bible2]

Kepha said:

lol, talk about snipping out a major part of the verse to twist your point across. I'll empasize in larger texts the key points you left out just so others can't miss it this time around.

But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Note that the first part of 1 Timothy 3:15, which simply says that the house of God is the church, doesn't change what the second part of 1 Timothy 3:15 says, that the living God himself is the pillar and ground of the truth; this is what other verses show as well (John 14:6, Ephesians 4:21, cf. 1 Timothy 2:4, John 17:3).

We must never try to replace God himself with the church as our source of truth, because the church is fallible. It's only by sticking close to God's own infallible word (2 Timothy 3:16, John 17:17) that we can be sure not to be led astray by anyone in the church (or outside of it) who might be teaching false doctrines which contradict God's word (2 Timothy 4:2-4, 1 Timothy 4:1, John 8:31, Mark 8:35-38).

Kepha said:

They weren't part of the flock at the time so it's all they had to check against.

Even those who are part of the church need to check every teaching of those in the church against God's infallible word (2 Timothy 3:16, John 17:17, John 8:31), because the church consists of fallible men (Galatians 2:11-14, John 18:17), who can wrongly employ their free will to veer away from the truth of God's word (2 Timothy 4:2-4, 1 Timothy 4:1, Mark 8:35-38).

Kepha said:

And one would be a fool to think the early converts 'ONLY' read their OT since we know that Paul taught Timothy who KNEW his OT.

Paul taught Timothy and everyone else what the OT taught (Acts 26:22) but hadn't been understood by anyone (Luke 18:34, Romans 16:25-26) until Jesus Christ explained it to his apostles after his resurrection (Luke 24:44-47, Galatians 1:12).

 

[jckstraw72]

So then you're saying that "The Church" does not have free will?

the individuals who make up the Church have free will, but Christ has promised that the gates of Hades would never prevail against the Church, and that the Holy Spirit would lead us into all truth, and Paul says the Church is the pillar and ground of truth - we are promised that His Body will never fail! The Church, as the Body of Christ, is His continuing presence on earth - we present Christ to the world. If His Church were to fail then that would mean that Christ has failed to keep His promises and to reveal Himself to each successive generations.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

the individuals who make up the Church have free will, but Christ has promised that the gates of Hades would never prevail against the Church, and that the Holy Spirit would lead us into all truth, and Paul says the Church is the pillar and ground of truth - we are promised that His Body will never fail! The Church, as the Body of Christ, is His continuing presence on earth - we present Christ to the world. If His Church were to fail then that would mean that Christ has failed to keep His promises and to reveal Himself to each successive generations.

I would have thought Peter would have said that since the RCC focuses on him so much

 

[Bible2]

jckstraw72 said:

the individuals who make up the Church have free will, but Christ has promised that the gates of Hades would never prevail against the Church, and that the Holy Spirit would lead us into all truth, and Paul says the Church is the pillar and ground of truth - we are promised that His Body will never fail! The Church, as the Body of Christ, is His continuing presence on earth - we present Christ to the world. If His Church were to fail then that would mean that Christ has failed to keep His promises and to reveal Himself to each successive generations.

We are assured that at least some people in the church will continue in the truth until the second coming of Jesus Christ, for there will be true believers who will still be "alive and remain" at his second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). But the way that they will continue in the truth won't be by replacing God himself with the church as their source of truth, for the church consists of fallible men (Galatians 2:11-14, John 18:17). Instead, true believers will stick close to God's own infallible Word (2 Timothy 3:16, Acts 17:11b, John 17:17), and so they won't be led astray by anyone in the church (or outside of it) teaching false doctrines which contradict God's Word (2 Timothy 4:2-4, 1 Timothy 4:1, John 8:31b, Mark 8:35-38).