Scripturally speaking

[mlqurgw]

It is entirely monergistic. You asked how a man can repent for another. The answer is no mere man can. You see salvation isn't an act or experience it is a person, Christ Jesus the Lord. He did all the obeying God requires of us. A similar question would be how could God punish Christ for our sin? Prov. 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the Lord. No just court in the world can condemn an innocent man. Even though he may wish to take the punishment for someone he couldn't do it justly. His life doesn't belong to him. It belongs to God. But that is not the case with Christ. He is the God-man. As such He has both the authority and power to lay down His life.John 10:18 He stood as surety and substitute for His people and bore their sin in His own body on the tree. God can justly punish Him for the sin of others because He made our sin to be His own. In the same way He, as our representative, obeyed all the commandments of God for us. Isa. 42:1,4,21; Philippians 2:7,8
Now how does this apply to your OP? In 1Cor. 1:30 we read the God has made Him to be all of our salvation. He is made of God unto us wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption. I do not believe that sanctification is a progressive work that we contribute to any more than regeneration is. It is just as much an act of God in us and for us as redemption. We are born again of incorruptable seed. That seed remains in us so that we cannot sin. 1Pet. 1:23, 1John 3:9 When we are regenerated we become a people of 2 natures, the flesh and the spirit. The flesh remains and is nothing but sin. The spirit is Christ in you the hope of glory. As He is so are we in this world. 1John 4:17 In Him is no sin. 1John 3:5
We are justified by the work of Christ, redeemed by Christ, sanctified by Christ and everlasting life is the result. He is the author and finisher of our faith. Heb. 12:2 He works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure. Phil. 2:13 He is the one who works in that which is well pleasing in His sight through Jesus Christ. Heb. 13:21 Salvation is in Christ alone and is Christ alone.

 

[bradfordl]

It is entirely monergistic. You asked how a man can repent for another. The answer is no mere man can. You see salvation isn't an act or experience it is a person, Christ Jesus the Lord. He did all the obeying God requires of us. A similar question would be how could God punish Christ for our sin? Prov. 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the Lord. No just court in the world can condemn an innocent man. Even though he may wish to take the punishment for someone he couldn't do it justly. His life doesn't belong to him. It belongs to God. But that is not the case with Christ. He is the God-man. As such He has both the authority and power to lay down His life.John 10:18 He stood as surety and substitute for His people and bore their sin in His own body on the tree. God can justly punish Him for the sin of others because He made our sin to be His own. In the same way He, as our representative, obeyed all the commandments of God for us. Isa. 42:1,4,21; Philippians 2:7,8
Now how does this apply to your OP? In 1Cor. 1:30 we read the God has made Him to be all of our salvation. He is made of God unto us wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption. I do not believe that sanctification is a progressive work that we contribute to any more than regeneration is. It is just as much an act of God in us and for us as redemption. We are born again of incorruptable seed. That seed remains in us so that we cannot sin. 1Pet. 1:23, 1John 3:9 When we are regenerated we become a people of 2 natures, the flesh and the spirit. The flesh remains and is nothing but sin. The spirit is Christ in you the hope of glory. As He is so are we in this world. 1John 4:17 In Him is no sin. 1John 3:5
We are justified by the work of Christ, redeemed by Christ, sanctified by Christ and everlasting life is the result. He is the author and finisher of our faith. Heb. 12:2 He works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure. Phil. 2:13 He is the one who works in that which is well pleasing in His sight through Jesus Christ. Heb. 13:21 Salvation is in Christ alone and is Christ alone.

Amen and amen! So what do we call the actions that we as regenerate persons take in the course of being conformed to the image of Christ? I see that He is our sanctification, but then what terms would describe the progressive nature of our being more and more like Him in the course of time? Progressive..... what? The whole progressive sanctification thing was something used in the past to refute the Wesleyan doctrine of "second blessing full sanctification". So is there a better term? And would that be synergistic? I mean, there are a lot of admonishments and exhortations, even warnings, for Christians to behave in Christlike fashion in the NT that seem to require effort on our part. What do we call that?

SDG,

Brad

 

[heymikey80]

"an absolute command requiring full obedience on the part of all hearers." - http://www.studylight.org/isb/view.c...=5720&tool=grk

The imperitive to repent and believe is clear. The idea we could do something that meets God's requirement, merits God's notice and obligates Him is denied by Scripture:

For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness." Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness Rom 4:2-5

"Will any one of you who has a servant plowing or keeping sheep say to him when he has come in from the field, 'Come at once and recline at table'? Will he not rather say to him, 'Prepare supper for me, and dress properly, and serve me while I eat and drink, and afterward you will eat and drink'? Does he thank the servant because he did what was commanded? So you also, when you have done all that you were commanded, say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty.'" Luke 17:7-10
​

So it really comes down to whether faith is ergistic. In the sense of works done to obligate God in some way -- it cannot be. There's no amount of faith that would make us into God's sons from His servants. God chooses to adopt those who rely on His Son. Again, it's a relational result given in grace by God, not an obligatory result that if we somehow =grunt= =flex= work up the faith and repentance within ourselves to gain God's notice and reward.

A couple hundred years ago the debate was worded slightly differently -- whether salvation were cooperative between God and men. And the result of that debate was again essentially the same. When you co-operate with God, you're putting your own operations on the same "co" level with God's. And salvation doesn't work that way. Relationally, we're permanent infants in God's sight (if even that).

We might say that humanly speaking we're both doing things in salvation. I think that would be a reasonable way to put it. But in comparison with God's work, our work is entirely derivative. Everything moves by God's initiative. We move, because God first moved in us. We act because God acts in us.

 

[mlqurgw]

Amen and amen! So what do we call the actions that we as regenerate persons take in the course of being conformed to the image of Christ? I see that He is our sanctification, but then what terms would describe the progressive nature of our being more and more like Him in the course of time? Progressive..... what? The whole progressive sanctification thing was something used in the past to refute the Wesleyan doctrine of "second blessing full sanctification". So is there a better term? And would that be synergistic? I mean, there are a lot of admonishments and exhortations, even warnings, for Christians to behave in Christlike fashion in the NT that seem to require effort on our part. What do we call that?

SDG,

Brad

The term is growth in grace. Sanctification has three meanings as it is used in the Scriptures, separated as holy, declared holy and made holy. There are no degrees of holiness. Therefore sanctification cannot be a progressive holiness. We are sanctified in Christ by the new birth. We now have a holy nature. According to Paul in Rom. 7 and Gal. 5 we are in a war with ourselves. Growing in grace is a progressive act of God in us by which we more and more mortify the deeds of the flesh and consider ourselves to be dead in Christ. It comes about by learning more of Him. Christ said in Matt. 11:28-30 that coming to Him we will find rest. Rest is no more working. It is relying on Him for all our acceptance with God. He said to take His yoke and learn of Him. As we learn of Him, that is by Him and about him, the yoke is not a burden at all.
Wesleyan perfectionism is that we are become perfect in both our natures. that is that we can go for a period of time without committing sin. The holiness movement sprang from it. It denies the true nature of the flesh.

 

[bradfordl]

The term is growth in grace. Sanctification has three meanings as it is used in the Scriptures, separated as holy, declared holy and made holy. There are no degrees of holiness. Therefore sanctification cannot be a progressive holiness. We are sanctified in Christ by the new birth. We now have a holy nature. According to Paul in Rom. 7 and Gal. 5 we are in a war with ourselves. Growing in grace is a progressive act of God in us by which we more and more mortify the deeds of the flesh and consider ourselves to be dead in Christ. It comes about by learning more of Him. Christ said in Matt. 11:28-30 that coming to Him we will find rest. Rest is no more working. It is relying on Him for all our acceptance with God. He said to take His yoke and learn of Him. As we learn of Him, that is by Him and about him, the yoke is not a burden at all.
Wesleyan perfectionism is that we are become perfect in both our natures. that is that we can go for a period of time without committing sin. The holiness movement sprang from it. It denies the true nature of the flesh.

That sounds to be a far better term, Ron. But the statement that it is a progressive act (a verb) of God in which we mortify (a verb) the deeds of the flesh is a little confusing if we say it is in no way synergistic. Now I will say that one of the best sermons I ever heard was on the theme of "stop trying and start trusting", which it seems is sort of what you're saying. Can you or anyone else clarify for me why there is not a synergisticity involved in this? I'd like to be able to wrap my head around this.

Thanks,

Brad

 

[bradfordl]

We might say that humanly speaking we're both doing things in salvation. I think that would be a reasonable way to put it. But in comparison with God's work, our work is entirely derivative. Everything moves by God's initiative. We move, because God first moved in us. We act because God acts in us.

Skipped that one, Mikey, and I think it is excellent, especially the word derivative. Thanks.

Brad

 

[heymikey80]

That sounds to be a far better term, Ron. But the statement that it is a progressive act (a verb) of God in which we mortify (a verb) the deeds of the flesh is a little confusing if we say it is in no way synergistic. Now I will say that one of the best sermons I ever heard was on the theme of "stop trying and start trusting", which it seems is sort of what you're saying. Can you or anyone else clarify for me why there is not a synergisticity involved in this? I'd like to be able to wrap my head around this.

I can clarify why the view of synergism isn't held by Presbyterians holding to Westminster.

The classical term for "growth in grace" in systematic theology is indeed "Sanctification" -- it's sort of a misnomer, though. It's not what Scripture calls "sanctification". I like Ron's term a whole lot better.

To Westminster, Sanctification / growth in grace is inseparably connected to Justification. However, S. is not a grace that saves. It's a work of grace. It doesn't bring salvation. It results directly from Justification, which also brings salvation.

Sanctification is a work of God’s grace, whereby they whom God hath, before the foundation of the world, chosen to be holy, are in time, through the powerful operation of his Spirit applying the death and resurrection of Christ unto them, renewed in their whole man after the image of God; having the seeds of repentance unto life, and all other saving graces, put into their hearts, and those graces so stirred up, increased, and strengthened, as that they more and more die unto sin, and rise unto newness of life. LC 75

sanctification be inseparably joined with justification, yet they differ, in that God in justification imputeth the righteousness of Christ; in sanctification of his Spirit infuseth grace, and enableth to the exercise thereof; in the former, sin is pardoned; in the other, it is subdued: the one doth equally free all believers from the revenging wrath of God, and that perfectly in this life, that they never fall into condemnation the other is neither equal in all, nor in this life perfect in any, but growing up to perfection. LC 77
​

In this way the work that exists in Sanctification is not the cause of salvation (which is critically important, because Scripture says such explicitly). But Sanctification and its works are always found as a result of a person being saved. This parallels passages like Ep 2:8-10, "not of works ... unto good works". Longer passages like Rom 7-8 are also roughly paralleled (faith in Christ saves; the Spirit works in believers for their growth and finally their glorification).

 

[KEK]

Salvation is monergistic. An act of God. Faith and repentance is a gift from God so that God neither believes for man nor does faith and repentance originate in man.
Has this been said already?

A more accurate statement would be, regeneration is monergistic. Secondly, since regeneration precedes faith, and since it's through faith that your are saved (Eph 2:8-9), that means regeneration is not salvation. Thirdly if God doesn't believe for man, then who does? And if God is not the one who does the believing for man, how is that monergistic?

 

[KEK]

Christ Jesus the Lord. He did all the obeying God requires of us.

If what you stated is true then God doesn't "require" and command us to repent as stated in His word.

Acts 17:31 - God overlooking the times of ignorance, now strictly commands all men everywhere to repent,

 

[KEK]

in comparison with God's work, our work is entirely derivative. Everything moves by God's initiative. We move, because God first moved in us. We act because God acts in us.

I don't disagree with that comment, but noticed you mentioned "our work" By doing so your excluding any true sense of monergism or "nonergism" Which ever of those words you prefer.

 

[heymikey80]

A more accurate statement would be, regeneration is monergistic. Secondly, since regeneration precedes faith, and since it's through faith that your are saved (Eph 2:8-9), that means regeneration is not salvation. Thirdly if God doesn't believe for man, then who does? And if God is not the one who does the believing for man, how is that monergistic?

Because relying on someone else does not take work. And "monergism" and "synergism" are both systems of work ("erg" == work).

 

[heymikey80]

I don't disagree with that comment, but noticed you mentioned "our work" By doing so your excluding any true sense of monergism or "nonergism" Which ever of those words you prefer.

I'll definitely turn back from my strident statement earlier. Granted, I still think there's something to the fact that our salvation -- particularly our status after our justification -- is relational and not oriented around judging our works. But you're right, God has worked to get us here -- both in His Sacrifice and in New Creation. "monergism" is speaking specifically about the work of the Holy Spirit in regenerating us. As it is a prerequisite to salvation, and it is a work -- one of creation -- that would convince me that my receiving salvation involves the work of God.

But I don't think the mention of our work excludes monergism. Synergism requires work on both parts to achieve salvation. But if salvation is already there ...how can my work be required?

There isn't a theology that excludes your work entirely. If you're looking for something in that "true" a sense there's not much sense in looking further. monergism itself doesn't mean "people don't work at all while the Spirit's working." Everybody does something -- unless they're dead. So everybody truly works. Monergism actually simply means the Spirit does what's needed; we don't contribute work to what's needed.

I think the question is whether those works accomplish something for you to receive salvation from God. They don't. So salvation is not your work at all. It's not based on your works. It is based on your relationship (union) with Christ Jesus, who has accomplished -- worked -- to obtain that for you. In that sense it is monergistic. Your receiving that relationship is by God's grace through the instrument of faith -- through you relying, resting on Christ Jesus for what He has already done for you.

Whether faith or repentance are considered works, that can be hotly debated. It's probably worth asking if you're in some kind of debate on the issue. I'm not entirely sure, because of so many Apostles answering the question "what must I do?" without saying, "It's not what you do." They simply say "Believe on Jesus." Maybe that's because that was the right answer to a wrong question, and new Christians didn't need to get all theologically involved in this issue, now so significant 20 centuries later?

Calvinists invariably state that works are not a cause, they're a result of faith. I often say works result given faith, time, growth, and the Holy Spirit's choosing.

But if works aren't prerequisite to the faith which saves, then they don't cause salvation.

And that's precisely what Paul says so pithily in Ephesians:

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Ep 2:8-10
​

So, salvation: not a result of works, but His workmanship, for works.

Ultimately salvation results in our works. But our works don't result in salvation.

'Hope it helps.

 

[heymikey80]

I don't disagree with that comment, but noticed you mentioned "our work" By doing so your excluding any true sense of monergism or "nonergism" Which ever of those words you prefer.

I think there is an added sense: that we can look at the results and decide whether the cause is present. Jesus called us to "look at the fruits", and John called us to check whether we were doing [working] what Christ commanded.

Again, this doesn't exclude monergism, which speaks to what accomplishes our salvation. salvation is "not of works".

But if you mean we're brought to the point of our doing good works, that's quite true as well.

Admittedly, I've got into extensive debates with some who don't think works should be part of salvation at all. And I think that's wrong. Sanctification is inseparably connected with Justification. We're told to expect it, to "look at fruits". But that's not synergism in salvation. Our works are not necessary -- though they necessarily result.

 

[KEK]

But if you mean we're brought to the point of our doing good works, that's quite true as well.

The following statement reflects my thoughts.

In Regeneration, God confers the power to repent and turn. Regeneration restores us back to a state of being able to respond to the convicting work of the Holy Spirit and become converted to Christ by faith.

 

[heymikey80]

The following statement reflects my thoughts.

In Regeneration, God confers the power to repent and turn. Regeneration restores us back to a state of being able to respond to the convicting work of the Holy Spirit and become converted to Christ by faith.

This is all reasonable and correct, but I think Scripture goes further.

In Regeneration, God brings people to spiritual birth: a new creation (2 Cor 5:16-17). By its very nature the spirit is convicted in its spirit and relies (== believes) on Christ and follows the Spirit of God. Sometimes this is noted as actually being the Spirit of God in us; sometimes this is noted as being our resurrected spirits. Y'might say "well, the human spirit willingly does what the Spirit wants"; that's essentially what Arminius seems to have held. But the connection seems so close, and the cause of my whole spirit's life and nature so dependent on the Spirit of God, I don't think I could make that leap into Scripture's silence on this point.

"The Spirit moves where it will ... So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit." John 3:8

And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God. Gal 4:6-7

You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. Rom 8:9-11

So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. Rom 9:18
​

So to us it's certainly a capability (actually a new creation), but it's more -- everyone born of the Spirit moves where the Spirit will.

As a result, you and I both agree that we have the power that raises people from death to life in our lives. The Great Enabler. I'd say the Spirit of God also cries out to the Father. He seems to be accomplishing our adoption too. He's not enabling us, alone. He's not just allowing us to work through Him. He's working on our behalf.

I'd think this is also Paul's meaning when he describes the believer who realizes, he doesn't have the power on his own:

For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin. Rom 7:23-25
​

Even after Paul believed in Christ and trusted him for deliverance, Paul saw that he would still serve the law of sin in his physical body. Romans 8 presses on to "How does this change?" in Sanctification.

 

[KEK]

I thought the following comments, which come from Reformed sources might be helpful.

"Regeneration differs from conversion in that conversion is what we do because of God's work of regeneration. "Regeneration is a spiritual change, conversion is a spiritual motion. In regeneration there is power conferred; conversion is the exercise of this power. In regeneration there is given us a principle to turn; conversion is our actual turning . . . in regeneration we are passive; it is God who acts. In conversion we are active; We act by exercising faith and repentance." - Michael Bremmer - http://www.mbrem.com/salvation/regene.htm

"In conversion man is active, and it wholly consists in his act; but in regeneration the Spirit of God is the only active cause." - Samuel Hopkins - http://www.the-highway.com/regcon_Hopkins.html

 

[heymikey80]

I guess my question would have to turn on this: does my conversion accomplish my salvation? Or has it already been accomplished?

What is God looking for in saving me: actions that result from faith? Or faith?

 

[KEK]

I guess my question would have to turn on this: does my conversion accomplish my salvation? Or has it already been accomplished?

What is God looking for in saving me: actions that result from faith? Or faith?

Repentance is conversion viewed from its starting-point, the turning from the former life; faith indicates the objective point of conversion, the turning to God." (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia)

In the Scripture below we once again see that if salvation is to result, man must first confess with his mouth, and personally believe. Confess and believe are action verbs. Man is not passive in confessing and believing, but rather pro-active. Basically what all this means is that man must exercise his God given faith unto salvation. This exercise of faith which the person must do is not one of merit, but of condition as indicated by the conditional word "if" in the Rom 10:9-10 passage.

Rom 10:9 because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved:
Rom 10:10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

[roselady]

Completly monergistic

John 1:12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

And I don't think any man can add to or co-operate with the finished work of Christ Jesus 2000 years ago.

I hope that wasn't a loaded question?

Yup thats the answer, TULIP is the way it really is. For my Elect, they can testify that without a little quickening they would not know the truth. Its wonderful folks, I hope everyone joins up soon.

 

[KEK]

without a little quickening they would not know the truth.

That is true, but at the same time it doesn't address what takes place after being quickened.