Scripturally based book recommendation or Eschatology

[Jeffwhosoever]

One argument that seems to decide the preterist/futurist debate is the date of the writing of Revelation. If it is written during the reign of Nero, prior to destruction of the Jewish temple in AD 70, then preterism is at least possible though I'm struggling to be convinced that John was talking about the imminent destruction of the Jewish temple and Jewish nation. Too many references in Revelation have not occurred in the history of man to date, unless one takes great liberty to interpret specific worldwide signs as only relevant to a small geographical region of the Earth (ancient Israel). For instance, every living person will see some of the scenes described in Revelation, and that is very unlikely to have taken place. And, if Revelation was written during the reign of Domitian in AD 84-96 or thereabouts, it cannot be in reference to the destruction of the Jewish temple which would have already occurred.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

I read late Great planet earth decades ago, but never really got interested in eschatology because book after book tried to tie down specific events in Revelation in terms of things happening or imminent at the time, such as Y2K, the red blood moons, etc. that same and went without the second coming of our Lord, but now we are studying Revelation, the Olivet discourse, Epistles of Paul, old testament prophecies including Daniel, etc. all in connection with the events of Revelation. We went the book "4 views of Revelation" that analyzes preterism, idealism, progressive Dispensationalism, and Classical Dispensentationalism as the 4 views. It claims Historicism has largely been abandoned due to the fact that humanity is not progressing towards elimination of evil, and basically claims the 20th century along with the world wars, holocaust, and great depression put Historicism out of the realm of possible.

 

[Biblewriter]

Actually, here's what Jerome actually said:

"We should therefore concur with the traditional interpretation of all the commentators of the Christian Church, that at the end of the world, when the Roman Empire is to be destroyed, there shall be ten kings who will partition the Roman world amongst themselves. Then an insignificant eleventh king will arise, who will overcome three of the ten kings, that is, the king of Egypt, the king of [North] Africa, and the king of Ethiopia, as we shall show more clearly in our later discussion. Then after they have been slain, the seven other kings also will bow their necks to the victor. "And behold," he continues, "there were eyes like unto human eyes in that horn." Let us not follow the opinion of some commentators and suppose him to be either the Devil or some demon, but rather, one of the human race, in whom Satan will wholly take up his residence in bodily form. ". . .and a mouth uttering overweening boasts..." (cf. II Thess. 2). For this is the man of sin, the son (668) of perdition, and that too to such a degree that he dares to sit in the temple of God, making himself out to be like God." (St. Jerome, Commentary on Daniel)

With the exception of “...at the end of the world...”, this is a virtually classic statement of the historicist position. Since the Roman Empire of which Daniel spoke no longer exists, futurism must manufacture a futurized re-created Roman Empire, Roman ten kingdoms, et al. Jerome, conversely, recognized that the extant Roman Empire of his own day, and the geopolitical and religious events associated with its dissolution and re-emergence over ensuing centuries as the apostate papacy, were what the commentators had been anticipating. Had Jerome and said commentators survived to the time of the Reformation, they would, with the Reformers, have recognized the fulfillments of Daniel's predictions and descriptions. The only misapprehension of Jerome et al was that these fulfillments would coincide with the end of the world in its entirety. They ultimately did, of course, culminate with the Reformation in the end of the apostate papal world of its era, as history records.

Contrary to dispensational futurism's misrepresentations, Jerome et al were overwhelmingly more historicist than futurist in their prophetic understanding.

The words of Jerome that I spoke of were:
"We should therefore concur with the traditional interpretation of all the commentators of the Christian Church, that at the end of the world, when the Roman Empire is to be destroyed, there shall be ten kings who will partition the Roman world amongst themselves. Then an insignificant eleventh king will arise, who will overcome three of the ten kings, ..." (Jerome’s comments on Daniel 7:8, as found in “Jerome’s Commentary on Daniel,” translated by Gleason L. Archer, Jr., published by Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, 1958.)

And no, what Jerome said was NOT historicist. it was indeed futurism, exactly what futurists teach, with the one exception of his words "when the Roman empire is to be destroyed." For these ancient writers could not comprehend a fall of the mighty Roman Empire before "the end of the world." He (and the others) had ten kings becoming united under a single head, which IS a revival of the Roman Empire. All of them also had the antichrist as a specific evil individual that would appear in the end times, not as an evil system that would appear long before "the end times," and would last for centuries, and even millennia.

 

[Douggg]

I read late Great planet earth decades ago, but never really got interested in eschatology because book after book tried to tie down specific events in Revelation in terms of things happening or imminent at the time, such as Y2K, the red blood moons, etc. that same and went without the second coming of our Lord, but now we are studying Revelation, the Olivet discourse, Epistles of Paul, old testament prophecies including Daniel, etc. all in connection with the events of Revelation. We went the book "4 views of Revelation" that analyzes preterism, idealism, progressive Dispensationalism, and Classical Dispensentationalism as the 4 views. It claims Historicism has largely been abandoned due to the fact that humanity is not progressing towards elimination of evil, and basically claims the 20th century along with the world wars, holocaust, and great depression put Historicism out of the realm of possible.

Jeff, try this two part approach.

1. Go through the bible and find all of the time frame expressions pertaining to the end times. With the goal of trying to put together a timeline flow of events.

2. study the different roles of the arch villain of the end times. And integrate him into the timeline flow of events.

I made a You Tube video of (1) and some other videos of (2) at my You Tube channel. You can go to minute 13:50 on the video if you don't want to watch the whole thing.

 

[jgr]

The words of Jerome that I spoke of were:
"We should therefore concur with the traditional interpretation of all the commentators of the Christian Church, that at the end of the world, when the Roman Empire is to be destroyed, there shall be ten kings who will partition the Roman world amongst themselves. Then an insignificant eleventh king will arise, who will overcome three of the ten kings, ..." (Jerome’s comments on Daniel 7:8, as found in “Jerome’s Commentary on Daniel,” translated by Gleason L. Archer, Jr., published by Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, 1958.)

Thanks for confirming my quote.

From Reformation history:

Ten kingdoms and their first or early kings:
Heruli - Anthyrius I
Suevi - Hermeric
Burgundians - Gjúki
Huns - Attila
Ostrogoths - Theodoric
Visigoths - Alaric I
Vandals - Genseric
Lombards - Lethuc
Franks - Ascaric
Anglo-Saxons - Alfred the Great

Eleventh king: Gelasius I, head of the Roman papacy when the first of the three kings, Odoacer of the Heruli, was overcome.

Three kings were overcome: Odoacer of the Heruli, Theia of the Ostrogoths, Gelimer of the Vandals.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Jesus plainly said that He was going "to my Father's house." and what did He say he was going to do THERE? "To prepare a place for you." The place was going to be prepared "in my father's house." THEN, He said, I will come again, and receive you to myself." and why? That where I am," which was to be in "my Father;'s house," "there you may be also." It would be difficult to state it more plainly. And there is not even one scripture which states otherwise.

And we can be confident that where He is, we are also.

Even now, we are seated in heavenly places with Christ Jesus.
At the hour of our death, we shall be present with the Lord.
And when our Lord returns in glory, and the dead are raised to that life everlasting in the Age to Come, we shall ever be with Him.

We are therefore confident, by the word of Christ, that He is indeed with us, as He Himself has said, "See, I am with you always, even until the end of the age." And we with Him, for having been joined to Him in Holy Baptism, sealed with the Holy Spirit by grace, through the faith we have received from God in the Holy Gospel, the Apostle boldly declares that we have our citizenship in heaven, that we are seated with the Lord in heavenly places.

For Christ who lives and reigns at the right hand of the Father is ours, and we His. For having been crucified with Him, dying with Him, being buried with Him, we have likewise been raised up with Him to newness of life, as new creations, born of God. And born of God, we are children and heirs of God, joint-heirs with Christ.

So that the inheritance of Christ is the inheritance of we ourselves. For this reason it is said that the saints reign with Him.

Therefore also He says, that He is the resurrection and the life, that whosoever believes in Him shall not die, and even if he shall die, yet shall he live. So that even in the absence of our body at death, yet shall we live, resting in the bosom of Christ until His glorious return on the Last Day.

He shall come for us, whether it be through the Paraclete, at the hour of our death, or when at last at the conclusion of all things He returns in glory as Judge of the living and the dead. For the Father's House is the household of God, and within which are rooms, abodes, enough for all--that we shall be with Him and He with us. And at last, at the end of all things, the heavenly City of God descends, and the earth shall be renewed and at last healed from all its wounds. God shall be our God, and we shall be His people; and we shall dwell with Him forever.

Unto the ages of ages.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Hazelelponi]

Historicism according to the book I'm reading is the idea that all of Revelation is past, but Idealism has nothing at all in common with amillenialism. Idealism is probably better termed symbolism as it is at least presented in three books as interpreting all of Revelation as entirely symboliic and not connected to any social, political or historical account of Revelation.

G. K. Beale writes:

The idealist approach affirms that Revelation is a symbolic portrayal of the conflict between good and evil, between the forces of God and of Satan. The most radical form of this view holds that the book is a timeless depiction of this struggle. The problem with this alternative is that it holds that Revelation does not depict any final consummation to history, whether in God’s final victory or in a last judgment in the realm of evil. The idealist notion encounters the opposite problem facing the preterist and historicist views, since it identifies none of the book’s symbols with particular historical events."

Having said this, Beale proceeds to describe the view of his commentary as “Eclecticism or a Redemptive-Historical Form of Modified Idealism"

It is a way to describe how one is approaching the book of Revelation similar to calling oneself a historicist etc. One can be partially one or two things describing their approach to understanding the Book within the limits of an amillenialist viewpoint...

It's how most people or scholars describe their approach. I myself am both historicist and partially idealist in that I believe we see different forms of Revelation play over and over through history until which time God is finished with us. First with Israel, Rome and the early church, then with the Catholic church (as the reformers saw), Kings and the reformers, now in our day we are seeing another period of major changes that is going to lead to God's people once more being persecuted by a governmental system and tares.

Anytime the church in error teams up with government systems to persecute God's people you are playing out Revelation in some form in my opinion of course.

Will this be the last time? I don't know... however I do believe there will be a final time, and that the Book describes that too.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

I need a seminary level textbook that takes a scholarly but very Scriptural approach to the study of eschatology. I'd like input on a book for people mature in the Christian faith who have been thru Systematic Theology but want to delve deeper into the different views to reaffirm our faith in a pretrib or midtrib rapture and 1000 year reign of Christ based on a literal (not symbolic) view of Revelation, but not based solely on Revelation as Daniel, Gospels, and Paul's epistles also discuss the end times. What we are expressly NOT looking for is something like Late Great Planet Earth. They sell those interpretations of modern events in terms of prophecy like hotcakes. We want a Scriptural based in depth book to guide us thru all Scripture and offers different views within the orthodox beliefs (for example we reject amillineliasm).

NOTE: Post reviewed with added details.

https://egwwritings-a.akamaihd.net/pdf/en_GC.pdf

 

[Biblewriter]

Amazon.com : james C Morri