Scripturally based book recommendation or Eschatology

[Biblewriter]

Precisely! The timing of it all is unknown at very best. Luke 17:20-37 pretty much says the Second Coming will catch us all with our pants down, just like in the days of Noah and Lot.

Anyone who denies that the rapture will take place is denying explicitly stated scripture. The timing of this event, relative to other prophesied events, is the only valid subject for debate.

 

[Rene Loup]

Anyone who denies that the rapture will take place is denying explicitly stated scripture. The timing of this event, relative to other prophesied events, is the only valid subject for debate.

To my knowledge, the Roman Catholics do not believe in a rapture. I know very little, if anything, about Orthodox beliefs. I do know for a fact that the concept of the rapture is most prevalent amongst Protestants. Based on this, even the existence of the rapture is a subject of debate.

 

[Biblewriter]

To my knowledge, the Roman Catholics do not believe in a rapture. I know very little, if anything, about Orthodox beliefs. I do know for a fact that the concept of the rapture is most prevalent amongst Protestants. Based on this, even the existence of the rapture is a subject of debate.

The fact that some deny it does not make it a legitimate subject for debate, for it is explicitly stated in the Bible. Anyone who denies it is denying explicitly stated scripture.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

 

[Biblewriter]

double post ddeleted.

 

[Rene Loup]

The fact that some deny it does not make it a legitimate subject for debate, for it is explicitly stated in the Bible. Anyone who denies it is denying explicitly stated scripture.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

You have a valid point. Again, I am not even sure if there is going to be a rapture at all, not a definite decision on its existence. I say this because I have been lead on by several prophecy websites ran by the American Religious Right (or at least claiming to). After enough time, it becomes a Boy Who Cried Wolf scenario and I start questioning the validity of their doctrine.

Another reason being, I have seen people take random verses from the Bible and create entire theologies around them. One example was an advertisement I saw on a website. It twisted Biblical Scripture well enough to make the idea of a nuclear war between the USA and Russia seem entirely Biblical. After which, it promised a survival guide for a fee.

Because of these realities, I am now much more careful in this kind of theology. I know politically-motivated pastors will use the rapture and end times prophecy to scare their churches into voting for certain politicians. It's using Biblical truth, or at least a form of it, to appeal to emotion, mainly fear and patriotism.

All I am saying is, be careful. There are many false teachers and false prophets out there. 2 Peter 2, 1 Timothy 6, 2 Timothy 3, 2 Timothy 4, Galatians 1, 2 Corinthians 11, 1 John 4, 1 Corinthians 12, Matthew 7, and others may be of interest to you.

 

[keras]

The fact that some deny it does not make it a legitimate subject for debate, for it is explicitly stated in the Bible. Anyone who denies it is denying explicitly stated scripture.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

What 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 is NOT, is a 'rapture to heaven'.
You may call the gathering of those who remain alive after the Great tribulation, to where Jesus is after He has descended from heaven, Matthew 24:30-31, as a 'rapture', but it is better described as a transportation, the same as what happened to Philip. Acts 8:39
But the whole idea of a general removal of Christians to heaven, is not prophesied and contradicts much scripture.

 

[parousia70]

=I'd like input on a book for people mature in the Christian faith who have been thru Systematic Theology but want to delve deeper into the different views to reaffirm our faith in a pretrib or midtrib rapture and 1000 year reign of Christ based on a literal (not symbolic) view of Revelation

Going to be difficult to base any futurist, pretrib or midtrib views on a literal (not symbolic) view of Revelation when you must symbolize, metaphorize, elasticize, stretch and twist the very opening passage to support such a view.

Hint: If your view REQUIRES such elastic symbolization, it's not a "Literal" view.

 

[Biblewriter]

You have a valid point. Again, I am not even sure if there is going to be a rapture at all, not a definite decision on its existence. I say this because I have been lead on by several prophecy websites ran by the American Religious Right (or at least claiming to). After enough time, it becomes a Boy Who Cried Wolf scenario and I start questioning the validity of their doctrine.

Another reason being, I have seen people take random verses from the Bible and create entire theologies around them. One example was an advertisement I saw on a website. It twisted Biblical Scripture well enough to make the idea of a nuclear war between the USA and Russia seem entirely Biblical. After which, it promised a survival guide for a fee.

Because of these realities, I am now much more careful in this kind of theology. I know politically-motivated pastors will use the rapture and end times prophecy to scare their churches into voting for certain politicians. It's using Biblical truth, or at least a form of it, to appeal to emotion, mainly fear and patriotism.

All I am saying is, be careful. There are many false teachers and false prophets out there. 2 Peter 2, 1 Timothy 6, 2 Timothy 3, 2 Timothy 4, Galatians 1, 2 Corinthians 11, 1 John 4, 1 Corinthians 12, Matthew 7, and others may be of interest to you.

I understand your hesitancy. But in addition to the scripture I already quoted, which again was, 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

You have a valid point. Again, I am not even sure if there is going to be a rapture at all, not a definite decision on its existence. I say this because I have been lead on by several prophecy websites ran by the American Religious Right (or at least claiming to). After enough time, it becomes a Boy Who Cried Wolf scenario and I start questioning the validity of their doctrine.

Another reason being, I have seen people take random verses from the Bible and create entire theologies around them. One example was an advertisement I saw on a website. It twisted Biblical Scripture well enough to make the idea of a nuclear war between the USA and Russia seem entirely Biblical. After which, it promised a survival guide for a fee.

Because of these realities, I am now much more careful in this kind of theology. I know politically-motivated pastors will use the rapture and end times prophecy to scare their churches into voting for certain politicians. It's using Biblical truth, or at least a form of it, to appeal to emotion, mainly fear and patriotism.

All I am saying is, be careful. There are many false teachers and false prophets out there. 2 Peter 2, 1 Timothy 6, 2 Timothy 3, 2 Timothy 4, Galatians 1, 2 Corinthians 11, 1 John 4, 1 Corinthians 12, Matthew 7, and others may be of interest to you.

I understand your hesitancy. But in addition to the scripture I already quoted, which again was, 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

Look at the following:

1 "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me.
2 In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. John 14:1-3

1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 Corinthians 5:1

9 For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God,
10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come. 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10

 

[Douggg]

I need a seminary level textbook that takes a scholarly but very Scriptural approach to the study of eschatology. I'd like input on a book for people mature in the Christian faith who have been thru Systematic Theology but want to delve deeper into the different views to reaffirm our faith in a pretrib or midtrib rapture and 1000 year reign of Christ based on a literal (not symbolic) view of Revelation, but not based solely on Revelation as Daniel, Gospels, and Paul's epistles also discuss the end times. What we are expressly NOT looking for is something like Late Great Planet Earth. They sell those interpretations of modern events in terms of prophecy like hotcakes. We want a Scriptural based in depth book to guide us thru all Scripture and offers different views within the orthodox beliefs (for example we reject amillineliasm).

NOTE: Post reviewed with added details.

Are you in seminary?

What book anyone is going to recommend depends on what your fundamental beliefs are. Please go to this thread, first post, and see if you want to participate.

Where do you fit ?

 

[Paul4JC]

I need a seminary level textbook that takes a scholarly but very Scriptural approach to the study of eschatology. I'd like input on a book for people mature in the Christian faith who have been thru Systematic Theology but want to delve deeper into the different views to reaffirm our faith in a pretrib or midtrib rapture and 1000 year reign of Christ based on a literal (not symbolic) view of Revelation, but not based solely on Revelation as Daniel, Gospels, and Paul's epistles also discuss the end times. What we are expressly NOT looking for is something like Late Great Planet Earth. They sell those interpretations of modern events in terms of prophecy like hotcakes. We want a Scriptural based in depth book to guide us thru all Scripture and offers different views within the orthodox beliefs (for example we reject amillineliasm).

NOTE: Post reviewed with added details.

The Rapture Question

 

[ViaCrucis]

To my knowledge, the Roman Catholics do not believe in a rapture. I know very little, if anything, about Orthodox beliefs. I do know for a fact that the concept of the rapture is most prevalent amongst Protestants. Based on this, even the existence of the rapture is a subject of debate.

None of the mainstream historic churches believe in "the rapture". Because the doctrine of "the rapture" did not exist until the 1800s.

Arguments to the contrary are built upon monumental misunderstandings and misquotes.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

The fact that some deny it does not make it a legitimate subject for debate, for it is explicitly stated in the Bible. Anyone who denies it is denying explicitly stated scripture.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

Nothing in that passage says anyone is raptured into heaven. It says we meet the Lord in the air at His Parousia.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

I need a seminary level textbook that takes a scholarly but very Scriptural approach to the study of eschatology. I'd like input on a book for people mature in the Christian faith who have been thru Systematic Theology but want to delve deeper into the different views to reaffirm our faith in a pretrib or midtrib rapture and 1000 year reign of Christ based on a literal (not symbolic) view of Revelation, but not based solely on Revelation as Daniel, Gospels, and Paul's epistles also discuss the end times. What we are expressly NOT looking for is something like Late Great Planet Earth. They sell those interpretations of modern events in terms of prophecy like hotcakes. We want a Scriptural based in depth book to guide us thru all Scripture and offers different views within the orthodox beliefs (for example we reject amillineliasm).

NOTE: Post reviewed with added details.

The problem is that what you are looking for isn't going to be Scriptural. If you want solid theology and good resources on biblical exegesis, that is going to mean having to give up the idea of "the rapture", a literal thousand years, and a literal reading of the Apocalypse.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Biblewriter]

The problem is that what you are looking for isn't going to be Scriptural. If you want solid theology and good resources on biblical exegesis, that is going to mean having to give up the idea of "the rapture", a literal thousand years, and a literal reading of the Apocalypse.

-CryptoLutheran

While Revelation 20 is the only place where we are told how long the future earthly kingdom will last, denying that in the future there will indeed be a physical kingdom on this earth is a denial of a literal host of explicitly stated scriptures.

 

[ViaCrucis]

While Revelation 20 is the only place where we are told how long the future earthly kingdom will last, denying that in the future there will indeed be a physical kingdom on this earth is a denial of a literal host of explicitly stated scriptures.

The day when the everlasting kingdom comes to earth is the day when God makes all things new. Which is why we confess that our Lord shall return as judge of the living and the dead, and His kingdom will have no end.

There is no temporal kingdom of the Messiah. Christ our God repeatedly told us that the kingdom of God is not a temporal, earthly kingdom.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Biblewriter]

The day when the everlasting kingdom comes to earth is the day when God makes all things new. Which is why we confess that our Lord shall return as judge of the living and the dead, and His kingdom will have no end.

There is no temporal kingdom of the Messiah. Christ our God repeatedly told us that the kingdom of God is not a temporal, earthly kingdom.

-CryptoLutheran

1 Also, thou son of man, prophesy unto the mountains of Israel, and say, Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the LORD:
2 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because the enemy hath said against you, Aha, even the ancient high places are ours in possession:
3 Therefore prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because they have made you desolate, and swallowed you up on every side, that ye might be a possession unto the residue of the heathen, and ye are taken up in the lips of talkers, and are an infamy of the people:
4 Therefore, ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord GOD; Thus saith the Lord GOD to the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, to the desolate wastes, and to the cities that are forsaken, which became a prey and derision to the residue of the heathen that are round about;
5 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Surely in the fire of my jealousy have I spoken against the residue of the heathen, and against all Idumea, which have appointed my land into their possession with the joy of all their heart, with despiteful minds, to cast it out for a prey.
6 Prophesy therefore concerning the land of Israel, and say unto the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I have spoken in my jealousy and in my fury, because ye have borne the shame of the heathen:
7 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I have lifted up mine hand, Surely the heathen that are about you, they shall bear their shame.
8 But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of Israel; for they are at hand to come.
9 For, behold, I am for you, and I will turn unto you, and ye shall be tilled and sown:
10 And I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, even all of it: and the cities shall be inhabited, and the wastes shall be builded:
11 And I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bring fruit: and I will settle you after your old estates, and will do better unto you than at your beginnings: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
12 Yea, I will cause men to walk upon you, even my people Israel; and they shall possess thee, and thou shalt be their inheritance, and thou shalt no more henceforth bereave them of men.
13 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because they say unto you, Thou land devourest up men, and hast bereaved thy nations;
14 Therefore thou shalt devour men no more, neither bereave thy nations any more, saith the Lord GOD.
15 Neither will I cause men to hear in thee the shame of the heathen any more, neither shalt thou bear the reproach of the people any more, neither shalt thou cause thy nations to fall any more, saith the Lord GOD. Ezekiel 36:1-15





21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore. Ezekiel 37:21-28


13 Thus saith the Lord GOD; This shall be the border, whereby ye shall inherit the land according to the twelve tribes of Israel: Joseph shall have two portions.
14 And ye shall inherit it, one as well as another: concerning the which I lifted up mine hand to give it unto your fathers: and this land shall fall unto you for inheritance.
15 And this shall be the border of the land toward the north side, from the great sea, the way of Hethlon, as men go to Zedad;
16 Hamath, Berothah, Sibraim, which is between the border of Damascus and the border of Hamath; Hazarhatticon, which is by the coast of Hauran.
17 And the border from the sea shall be Hazarenan, the border of Damascus, and the north northward, and the border of Hamath. And this is the north side.
18 And the east side ye shall measure from Hauran, and from Damascus, and from Gilead, and from the land of Israel by Jordan, from the border unto the east sea. And this is the east side.
19 And the south side southward, from Tamar even to the waters of strife in Kadesh, the river to the great sea. And this is the south side southward.
20 The west side also shall be the great sea from the border, till a man come over against Hamath. This is the west side.
21 So shall ye divide this land unto you according to the tribes of Israel.
22 And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel.
23 And it shall come to pass, that in what tribe the stranger sojourneth, there shall ye give him his inheritance, saith the Lord GOD. Ezekiel 47:13-23


1 Now these are the names of the tribes. From the north end to the coast of the way of Hethlon, as one goeth to Hamath, Hazarenan, the border of Damascus northward, to the coast of Hamath; for these are his sides east and west; a portion for Dan.
2 And by the border of Dan, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Asher.
3 And by the border of Asher, from the east side even unto the west side, a portion for Naphtali.
4 And by the border of Naphtali, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Manasseh.
5 And by the border of Manasseh, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Ephraim.
6 And by the border of Ephraim, from the east side even unto the west side, a portion for Reuben.
7 And by the border of Reuben, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Judah.
8 And by the border of Judah, from the east side unto the west side, shall be the offering which ye shall offer of five and twenty thousand reeds in breadth, and in length as one of the other parts, from the east side unto the west side: and the sanctuary shall be in the midst of it. Ezekiel 48:1-8

23 As for the rest of the tribes, from the east side unto the west side, Benjamin shall have a portion.
24 And by the border of Benjamin, from the east side unto the west side, Simeon shall have a portion.
25 And by the border of Simeon, from the east side unto the west side, Issachar a portion.
26 And by the border of Issachar, from the east side unto the west side, Zebulun a portion.
27 And by the border of Zebulun, from the east side unto the west side, Gad a portion.
28 And by the border of Gad, at the south side southward, the border shall be even from Tamar unto the waters of strife in Kadesh, and to the river toward the great sea.
29 This is the land which ye shall divide by lot unto the tribes of Israel for inheritance, and these are their portions, saith the Lord GOD.
30 And these are the goings out of the city on the north side, four thousand and five hundred measures. Ezekiel 48:23-30

 

[keras]

Quoting lengthy prophesies, Biblewriter, does not inform us of what you believe.
Obviously, from Ezekiel; the holy Land is important and will be occupied by the 'sheep' of the Lord in the future, as per Ezekiel 34:11-16.

This truth ties in with where the people gathered up in the 'harparzo' of 1 Thessalonians 4:17. NOT to heaven!

As you haven't responded to my post #26, I reiterate; The faithful people who will be gathered when Jesus Returns, as stated in Matthew 24:30-31, will go to live in the holy Land for the Millennium.

But the fact that most don't see, is that the Christian peoples will be living there before the Return. As Ezekiel 34:12 tells us: they will go the the holy Land after the day of cloud and darkness.
What day would that be? The terrible Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath, the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster by fire from the sun. Isaiah 30:26-30
Plenty of Bible prophesies describe this. I will start another thread on; Who are the rightful owners of the holy Land.

 

[Biblewriter]

What 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 is NOT, is a 'rapture to heaven'.
You may call the gathering of those who remain alive after the Great tribulation, to where Jesus is after He has descended from heaven, Matthew 24:30-31, as a 'rapture', but it is better described as a transportation, the same as what happened to Philip. Acts 8:39
But the whole idea of a general removal of Christians to heaven, is not prophesied and contradicts much scripture.

Actually, Jesus himself very plainly said exactly what you deny.

2 In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. John 14:2-3

 

[keras]

Actually, Jesus himself very plainly said exactly what you deny.

2 In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. John 14:2-3

I deny that the Church will be taken to heaven.
John 14:1-3 does NOT 'very plainly say that' .

The whole 'rapture to heaven' theory is based on assumptions , conjecture and guesswork.
It will not happen, because the Bible does plainly tell us what our destiny will be for forthcoming last days.

 

[Biblewriter]

I deny that the Church will be taken to heaven.
John 14:1-3 does NOT 'very plainly say that' .

The whole 'rapture to heaven' theory is based on assumptions , conjecture and guesswork.
It will not happen, because the Bible does plainly tell us what our destiny will be for forthcoming last days.

Jesus plainly said that He was going "to my Father's house." and what did He say he was going to do THERE? "To prepare a place for you." The place was going to be prepared "in my father's house." THEN, He said, I will come again, and receive you to myself." and why? That where I am," which was to be in "my Father;'s house," "there you may be also." It would be difficult to state it more plainly. And there is not even one scripture which states otherwise.