OK, I think I'm beginning to see my way a little clearer to understand at least what the issues are. I can't say yet that I fully understand the Catholic position.
Okay, I'm going to try to go through this one and answer what I can. There is a lot here to unpack, and so hopefully I can without writing a book while doing so.
I think a major question is - what is the result of sin? Do we say there are consequences, that punishment is necessary, that payment is required, that satisfaction is required? I see, Erose, you already replaced payment with satisfaction. I think I need to understand what sort of "satisfaction". The thing that makes it not work for Orthodoxy is to say that God exacts punishment as a temporal consequence of sin.
Here is the nuts and bolts of this. All sin has consequences. Whether or not we like it, sin affects us negatively. We may not think so at the time, no matter how slight, there is affects and they are always negative.
For example stealing a piece of bubble gum. Even though the store you stole it from may be out only a few cents because you stole that gum, but when at the end of the year, lets say a 1000 pieces of bubble gum were stolen. 5 cents lost turns into $50.00 of profit lost because of stealing. Add that to all the other losses that the store takes, that may impact whether or not the store owner can give a raise to his people for the next year. This is just a scenario but it is something that can happen.
Anyway, the point being no matter how slight all sin has consequences.
The consequences of sin COULD BE experienced as punishment for us ... sometimes the natural consequences are punishment. Sometimes God may in fact punish. But we certainly would NOT say that God demands satisfaction in the form of punishment. That is precisely why we have a problem with penal substitution as well.
What we say is justice demands satisfaction. God requires satisfaction for sin. How that satisfaction happens is upon us. Does it have to be punishment? No. It could be doing works of mercy, or spending time in prayer and mortification trying to break the influence on us that our predominate faults have. It may be that satisfaction for our sins is exacted on us by society. There are many ways that satisfaction can be had, but justice demands satisfaction. This isn't a bad thing, and I'm not sure why some would consider it to be that way.
We would say that sin does separate us from God, requiring forgiveness (which is ultimately offered through Christ) in order for us to be restored to right relationship with God and be "saved" in the end.
We see two types of sin, mortal and venial. Mortal sin does separate us from God, and requires reconciliation with God and mankind; venial sin doesn't separate us from God, but does harm our relationship; and if one continues in said venial sin, it may lead to more grievous sins.
An example of what we speak of here is that in a marriage one would classify adultery as a mortal sin against said marriage. Adultery, especially when discovered, causes a rift between spouses, that requires a great deal of satisfaction on the part of the adulter(ous) to heal if it is even possible to do so, right? But what about a lie? Lets say you bought something that was a little on the expensive side, and you hid it from your spouse. When he/she finds out about it, there may be a fight or there might not be, but there is a risk that the relationship is damaged. Because now the other spouse isn't sure if they can trust the other. This would be like a venial sin.
Sin also does other things. It changes us (just as coopering with God's grace in doing good things changes us .... everything changes us, inclines us toward God or away, makes us like Christ or different. There is little that is truly neutral). Those negative effects on our souls have to be dealt with, when they incline us toward sin. That the Orthodox would agree we need to be purged of.
And sin further affects others directly, and indirectly, and even the cosmos. But I think that would just confuse the issue to discuss right now.
These are what we call consequences of sin.
How we are purged from those effects would seem to be the issue. Orthodox sees this as being possible in a number of ways. Again, cooperation with the grace of God, which can come about through all kinds of ways - obeying God's commandments, acts of love and charity to others, receiving the sacraments, through our prayers, accepting the help of God and trusting Him as we suffer, and probably innumerable other ways. And if we die without being fully cleansed, it still must be accomplished. In another post, I mentioned some possibilities from our point of view how this might be accomplished.
But what I really question is the necessity (not possibility) of punishment, specifically, and that God requires it, and that punishment necessarily purges us.
These are what we call proper responses in repentance. Again doing these things helps in making satisfaction.
In all honesty the idea of punishment, would really be in the eye of the person enduring it. A good Christian IMO doing penance for a sin, to help reduce the influence of that sin, would classify the penance as a punishment. Weaker brethren, I can see viewing it as such. But also I think that a good Christian going through a period of torment, because of a sin committed, would not be wrong in thinking that this torment is just punishment for the sin they committed.
Again using the example of an adulter being found out by his spouse, and the spouse kicking him out of their house; if said adulter was truly repentant of his actions would find that this and even more is just punishment for their sins don't you think?
God MIGHT punish, as He sees fit. And punishment MIGHT purge us. We obviously believe this as human beings, else we would not hope that punishing our children or criminals might possibly work for their rehabilitation.
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But the NECESSITY is a big problem for Orthodox. God may well choose another way. And the use of the term "satisfaction" introduces a big red flag, since you insisted on that change. Does that mean that God is not satisfied until and unless He punishes us, and then and only then can we be cleansed or forgiven? If I'm misunderstanding, please do explain how Catholics see this.
Yes you are misunderstanding the position. Again the quote I provided by St. John Cassius should be ample explanation of the Catholic position. Punishment is only one possible means of satisfaction. There are quite a few others. I'll quote St. John Cassius again here:
You see then what great means of obtaining mercy the compassion of our Saviour has laid open to us, so that no one when longing for salvation need be crushed by despair, as he sees himself called to life by so many remedies. For if you plead that owing to weakness of the flesh you cannot get rid of your sins by fasting, and you cannot say: My knees are weak from fasting, and my flesh is changed for oil; for I have eaten ashes for my bread, and mingled my drink with weeping, then atone for them by profuse almsgiving. If you have nothing that you can give to the needy (although the claims of want and poverty exclude none from this office, since the two mites of the widow are ranked higher than the splendid giftsof the rich, and the Lord promises that He will give a reward for a cup of cold water), at least you can purge them away by amendment of life. But if you cannot secure perfection in goodness by the eradication of all your faults, you can show a pious anxiety for the good and salvation of another. But if you complain that you are not equal to this service, you can cover your sins by the affection of love. And if in this also some sluggishness of mind makes you weak, at least you should submissively with a feeling of humility entreat for remedies for your wounds by the prayers and intercession of the saints.
Even if God were satisfied by inflicting punishment, how is it that punishment necessarily purges us from impurities. I concede that it can, but in some cases, it may not. Reference the above criminals, very few are actually rehabilitated as a result of incarceration.
In all reality, it falls to the Judge. God is by far and away the ultimate psychologist. He knows us by far and away better than we know ourselves. He knows what we need far better than we do. So if He knows that suffering for a sin, will help us be purged from it, then He will send upon us suffering. Much like when we were children, our parents punished us when we acted up. The intent was to correct said behavior, which in some cases worked in others didn't. But God knows us far better than our parents did.
From our point of view "penance" is meant to be rehabilitative, restorative, NOT ever as some kind of punishment. We don't even generally call them penances. It might be to read a certain book, or make a particular adjustment in our prayer rule (but not praying x-number of prayers as some kind of reparation for this particular sin).
Penance is the same for us. But we need to understand here that the Church has always viewed Penance as a form of Satisfaction for Sin. That is what a Penance is. I think the thing you are getting confused about here and I want to clarify to you is that not all forms of Satisfaction for Sin is punishment, as St. John Cassius points out in his very wonderful writing on the subject, which I would highly recommend reading.
CHURCH FATHERS: Conference 20 (John Cassian)
Yes, sometimes there are consequences or we might even call punishment that happens. But we do not extrapolate from that and say that EVERYone must be punished. After all, the woman caught in the act of adultery wasn't. And I can't offhand recall an instance of Jesus punishing any person who showed repentance. We cannot draw conclusions or make a doctrine based on a sometimes-event in the Old Testament when Christ Himself responded differently when He was with us in the flesh.
The Church has never made this claim. The claim being made is satisfaction is part of it. What that satisfaction is varies. To start off with the woman caught in the act of adultery, already suffered a great deal at the hands of the mob did she not? The humiliation of being called out publicly for example. Also we must also remember what Jesus said to her to after He forgave her. Did He not say go and sin no more? No longer falling in the sin that we commit, and no longer having a desire to do so is what St. John Cassian says is when we know that Satisfaction has been met:
Wherefore in order to satisfy as briefly and shortly as possible, your desire and question, the full and perfectdescription of penitence is, never again to yield to those sins for which we do penance, or for which our conscience is pricked. But the proof of satisfaction and pardon is for us to have expelled the love of them from our hearts. For each one may be sure that he is not yet free from his former sins as long as any image of those sins which he has committed or of others like them dances before his eyes, and I will not say a delight in— but the recollection of— them haunts his inmost soul while he is devoting himself to satisfaction for them and to tears. And so one who is on the watch to make satisfaction may then feel sure that he is free from his sins and that he has obtained pardon for past faults, when he never feels that his heart is stirred by the allurements and imaginations of these same sins. Wherefore the truest test of penitence and witness of pardon is found in our own conscience, which even before the day of judgment and of knowledge, while we are still in the flesh, discloses our acquittal from guilt, and reveals the end of satisfaction and the grace of forgiveness. And that what has been said may be more significantly expressed, then only should we believe that the stains of past sins are forgiven us, when the desires for present delights as well as the passions have been expelled from our heart. (Chapter 5)
We would agree that through many means we can cooperate with the grace of God in order to be changed (purged of the effects sin creates on our soul). But I'm not sure if "satisfaction" is the right word. I need a definition of what "satisfaction" is. Again, if it is that God must be satisfied with our suffering in some way in order to .... forgive? purge? us? Then no, we cannot agree. Rather, these things are ways that we can participate in the work God does in us, by His grace, freely available, and when we cooperate with God, we ARE changed, purged.
I might be misunderstanding you, but the word "satisfaction" implies that to me.
Again I would recommend reading the treatise on the subject by St John Cassian that I linked above.
The decision to return the bike, or not - or to pay for the broken window, or not - can be indicative of the heart condition. We are forgiven based on our heart condition. I suppose it is possible we could grudgingly return the bike or pay for the window and not be sorry for what we did, and no, we may well not be forgiven in that case, if we don't believe we did anything wrong.
A sure sign of true repentance isn't just feeling guilty for committing a sin; but also a desire to make things right as well. So a truly repentative bike thief, would if at all possible to return the bike, and to make things right with the person he wronged.
I do think that people confuse repentance with guilt; and that should not be the case.
On the other hand, if we cannot afford to pay for the broken window, our forgiveness does not hinge on our ability to do so. Yes, we should certainly make reparations where we can, and generally that will be the case. But it is not the actual reparation that causes God to forgive us. Rather, we are forgiven for those sins we repent of, and if we have truly repented, we should desire to make things right as far as we are able. But if the bike has been destroyed and we cannot buy another, we can still be forgiven, despite our inability to return it.
Yes, the key here is true repentance. Forgiveness is dependent upon true repentance, not just on feeling guilt. This is the difference between Judas Iscariot and St. Peter right? Both denied Christ, and both felt guilt and shame afterwards, but why was St. Peter forgiven and Judas not? Because St. Peter repented, where Judas only felt guilt.
That may seem like quibbling if you were only trying to make a point. But to us it is repentance, and the heart, that matters, and that comes before we go to Confession. What we do after confession may well reflect the true state of our heart, but it is not in itself a condition for forgiveness.
For us it goes hand in hand. Feeling guilty isn't enough, nor confessing that sin isn't enough; there has to be a true desire to make things right (satisfaction). If it is against a neighbor, then we should strive, to do what is in our power to make things right with them. If it is a sin that we have issues with, then our intent should be to overcome that sin, and do it no more; and do what we can to overcome it. Without the desire to make things right, and the intent to do so, then you are truly not repentant of your sins.
We do believe that our prayers help the dead, but in what way we do not speculate. Could God momentarily lesson the pain of one in torment - a finger dipped in water as the rich man in the parable asked? Maybe. We don't know. Could God assist somehow one who in the process of being purged (though we do not assume that we know this is something that happens, not at all). Maybe. We don't know. We don't assume that someone who died with an evil heart can be "saved" by our prayers. But we don't speculate anything at all. We pray for mercy on them, we pray because we love them. But what God does with these prayers, we absolutely do not speculate.
All we know is that our prayers help our brethren in the state of purgatory. Like you we are not sure how, but we just know that they do. We also know that the prayers of those who are righteous do more than those of us who are still working on getting to that point.
We don't disagree with this. However ... I don't think this is saying that there is a literal fire of purgatory that burns out sins, unless you want to add that purgatory is ALSO the case of being yanked through a hole and our sins scraped off. We do expect that it is very possible that some distress, discomfort, pain, suffering, what have you - may well afflict a soul as it is being separated from that which binds it to earth, or cleansed of remaining passions. It could be a flash so quick that it is not felt - or not. We don't know, but if the soul experiences it in a negative way, well, we wouldn't be at all surprised. It is essentially expected.
I also note that St. Gregory says specifically that this is NOT punishment inflicted by God. As I said, that would be one of the major issues we have with purgatory, if it is considered as punishment (for temporal sins).
We don't claim that it is a literal fire either. We really don't know how this is done. We do use the allusion to fire, based upon 1 Cor, and quite a few writings on the subject by the ECFs.
I like what Pope Benedict XVI said in Spe Salvi:
...that the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves. All that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation. His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation “as through fire”. But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God. In this way the inter-relation between justice and grace also becomes clear: the way we live our lives is not immaterial, but our defilement does not stain us for ever if we have at least continued to reach out towards Christ, towards truth and towards love. Indeed, it has already been burned away through Christ's Passion.
I think that i will post the passage on purgatory from Spe Salvi after I finish up here. Pope Benedict does a much better job than I can possibly do to explain the Doctrine of Purgatory.
Concerning using the term punishment. Quite honestly wouldn't this be in the eye of the beholder?
From what I understand, the idea of merits is quite a bit more developed in Catholicism. Do you not say there is some kind of measured amount of grace available, because of the good deeds done by Christ and many others, and that these can be applied by the Catholic Church to the account of people to offset their sins?
This isn't the best way to look at this. One of the things that confuses folks is that throughout the history of the Church there have been what is called "theological opinions" and practices that grew in popularity and waned. This understanding of merits is one of them. If there is truly a quantifiable measurement of merit, only God knows what that is.
Purely merit, is what we do as members of the Church for others. For example the merit from me explaining this to you, maybe that you understand the position better, and have a better appreciation on where we come from on this matter. Merit is spoken of quite a bit by the Early Church Fathers, and there is a belief that the merits of the Saints in heaven, still help us here on earth. Just like they did while they were still here physically. But this is a different subject and we should convolute these thread on this subject.
You'll have to quote the Scripture, please. I'm remembering that love covers a multitude of sins.
Tobit 4: [7] Give alms out of thy substance, and turn not away thy face from any poor person: for so it shall come to pass that the face of the Lord shall not be turned from thee. [8]According to thy ability be merciful. [9] If thou have much give abundantly: if thou have a little, take care even so to bestow willingly a little. [10] For thus thou storest up to thyself a good reward for the day of necessity. [11] For alms deliver from all sin, and from death, and will not suffer the soul to go into darkness. [12] Alms shall be a great confidence before the most high God, to all them that give it.
Tobit 12: [8]Prayer is good with fasting and alms more than to lay up treasures of gold: [9]For alms delivereth from death, and the same is that which purgeth away sins, and maketh to find mercy and life everlasting.
Sirach: [33] Water quencheth a flaming fire, and alms resisteth sins: [34] And God provideth for him that sheweth favour: he remembereth him afterwards, and in the time of his fall he shall find a sure stay.
Daniel 4: [24] Wherefore, O king, let my counsel be acceptable to thee, and redeem thou thy sins with alms, and thy iniquities with works of mercy to the poor: perhaps he will forgive thy offences.
Mat 6: [3] But when thou dost alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doth. [4] That thy alms may be in secret, and thy Father who seeth in secret will repay thee.
And we recognize no such thing as merits, no. Rather the grace of God is freely available, without measure. Yes, love covers a multitude of sins, and cooperating with God in love changes us and purges us of our passions, and effects of sin on our soul. But I don't think it is anything like the Catholic treasury of merits, unless I've been very misinformed (which is entirely possible, I will admit).
This seems to be one of the things, along with understanding the requirement of Satisfaction that the Orthodox have not retained. I'm not sure why this is the case, but perhaps you could help me on it, because both Satisfaction and merits are frequently discussed in the ECFs.
Well ... whether or not God is actually "just" is a subject in its own. People will get very upset if we say that He is not, but the fact is that He does NOT deal with us after our sins and as we deserve, and as justice might demand. Mercy actually triumphs over justice, in some cases. There is a wonderful quote by one of the Saints or the ECFs (or someone who is both) that I wish I had saved about this. Again, the question is, do Catholics assume that God had some kind of necessary "punishment" that HAD TO BE meted out on SOMEone before He was able or willing to forgive us, and did Christ serve as that whipping boy? We do reject the part that says it was suffering that God demanded before He would forgive, and we further reject that God is constrained by some cosmic idea of justice such that He could not forgive without exacting a pound of flesh first, even if He wanted to.
This matter here is more complicated than what this thread should be about, and would merit its own thread IMO. For us God IS JUSTICE, He IS MERCY. There are not just traits, but rather who He is. Scripture is very explicit that God is just, and it speaks very frequently about His justice. Anyway I think that this is one of those things that we as Catholics are in the middle between Orthodox Christians who emphasize God's mercy, and Protestants who emphasize God's Justice.