Scriptural references to Purgatory - Old and New Testament

[gordonhooker]

I would include Luke 16:22-23 where the begger goes to the bosom of Abraham, while the rich man goes to Hades. Abraham's bosom cannot be heaven, because no souls went to heaven before Christ died. Hades is the place of the dead not hell, because the rich man shows some repentance and talks to Abraham. That can't happen in hell. Jesus himself told this parable so it has to be right.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 - “…the person will be saved, but only as through fire.” Also see Hebrews 12:5-3, and Hebrews 12:5-23. “… and the spirits of the just made perfect”.
This passage says there will be reward or punishment in the afterlife based on the quality of one's deeds. This is also a good passage in support of conditional salvation (note the word 'will') and not saved by faith alone.

Again random pieces of scripture taken out of context to attempt to allude to a doctrine that does not have a firm scriptural basis.
Always remember the 3 C's when studying scripture context, context and context...

 

[prodromos]

Both Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox pray for their dead, have liturgies served for them, perform acts of charity in their name and have regular memorials for them yet there is no concept of purgatory in either Church and Rome's divergence from them predates any development of the doctrine of purgatory in the West. So it would seem that the doctrine of purgatory is a modern innovation that did not exist in the early Church, else you would see some form of it in every ancient Church.

 

[gordonhooker]

Both Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox pray for their dead, have liturgies served for them, perform acts of charity in their name and have regular memorials for them yet there is no concept of purgatory in either Church and Rome's divergence from them predates any development of the doctrine of purgatory in the West. So it would seem that the doctrine of purgatory is a modern innovation that did not exist in the early Church, else you would see some form of it in every ancient Church.

From what I have read over the years it concept of a no-place (Sheol, Abrahams Bosom) or paradise was around before the early Christian fathers were around, but I don't believe it started being referred to as a in between place you go until the early in the 11th century. It became very profitable for the misguided regional Bishops over the years though and indulgences were handed out for many different things including going off to battle in the crusades. I also believe it was another issue that led to the great schism between the Eastern and Western church.

 

[Albion]

Both Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox pray for their dead, have liturgies served for them, perform acts of charity in their name and have regular memorials for them yet there is no concept of purgatory in either Church and Rome's divergence from them predates any development of the doctrine of purgatory in the West. So it would seem that the doctrine of purgatory is a modern innovation that did not exist in the early Church, else you would see some form of it in every ancient Church.

And I might add that Anglicans, too, pray for the dead, but that this doesn't imply a belief in Purgatory. It's just a general call for God's mercy.

We often hear it argued that if the Bible gives any evidence of anyone having prayed for the dead--or if anybody today does pray for the repose of the souls of the departed--that this implies a belief in Purgatory. It does not.

 

[zeland2236]

From what I have read over the years it concept of a no-place (Sheol, Abrahams Bosom) or paradise was around before the early Christian fathers were around, but I don't believe it started being referred to as a in between place you go until the early in the 11th century. It became very profitable for the misguided regional Bishops over the years though and indulgences were handed out for many different things including going off to battle in the crusades. I also believe it was another issue that led to the great schism between the Eastern and Western church.

 

[zeland2236]

Dear Gordon,

Thanks for your notes, however they are a bit confusing. Are you a Catholic? I ask this because it seems strange that you deny the existence of Purgatory and yet you recommend that I go to Catholic sources for the "correct" understanding of the scriptures I quoted. It is the Catholic Church that in the primary promoter of the Doctrine of Purgatory. See the Catechism of the Catholic Church #s 1030 - 1033.

Also, Christ's sacrifice on the cross did not automatically wipe away all our sins, or the punishment incurred by those. His sacrifice made those things possible. He gained the merits which would make the forgiveness of our sins possible, but those merits must still be applied to us individually by repentance and absolution through the Sacrament of Confession (Penance). ((John20: 19-23; 2 Cor. 5:18-20 (11-20)-The Ministry of Reconciliation - NIV)). Also see Matthew 9:6-8.


6 "But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house. 7 And he arose, and departed to his house. 8 But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men" (KJV).


I always like to use the example that Christ's Death on the cross scheduled the train route to heaven, but we must still buy the train ticket. Also how does 2 Maccabees 12:43-46 not indicate (refer to) Purgatory.



43 "And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection, 44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) 45 And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. 46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins".

God bless

zeland

 

[gordonhooker]

Dear Gordon,

Thanks for your notes, however they are a bit confusing. Are you a Catholic? I ask this because it seems strange that you deny the existence of Purgatory and yet you recommend that I go to Catholic sources for the "correct" understanding of the scriptures I quoted. It is the Catholic Church that in the primary promoter of the Doctrine of Purgatory. See the Catechism of the Catholic Church #s 1030 - 1033.

Also, Christ's sacrifice on the cross did not automatically wipe away all our sins, or the punishment incurred by those. His sacrifice made those things possible. He gained the merits which would make the forgiveness of our sins possible, but those merits must still be applied to us individually by repentance and absolution through the Sacrament of Confession (Penance). ((John20: 19-23; 2 Cor. 5:18-20 (11-20)-The Ministry of Reconciliation - NIV)). Also see Matthew 9:6-8.


6 "But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house. 7 And he arose, and departed to his house. 8 But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men" (KJV).


I always like to use the example that Christ's Death on the cross scheduled the train route to heaven, but we must still buy the train ticket. Also how does 2 Maccabees 12:43-46 not indicate (refer to) Purgatory.



43 "And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection, 44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) 45 And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. 46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins".

God bless

zeland

I have not got time today to go too deeply into a response other than to say:

I am an Anglican of the Anglo Catholic ilk and a professed 3rd Order Franciscan tssf so we are very much High Church Anglican and agree with a lot of early church doctrine, but the Doctrine of Purgatory is not one of them. I recommended the Catholic resources because they are used by Roman Catholics and Anglo Catholics as part of our library of scripture study references.

blessings, Gordon

 

[zeland2236]

I have not got time today to go too deeply into a response other than to say:

I am an Anglican of the Anglo Catholic ilk and a professed 3rd Order Franciscan tssf so we are very much High Church Anglican and agree with a lot of early church doctrine, but the Doctrine of Purgatory is not one of them. I recommended the Catholic resources because they are used by Roman Catholics and Anglo Catholics as part of our library of scripture study references.

blessings, Gordon

Dear Gordon,

When you get the time, please give me your thoughts on Maccabees 12: 43-46.

God bless

zeland

 

[gordonhooker]

Dear Gordon,

When you get the time, please give me your thoughts on Maccabees 12: 43-46.

God bless

zeland

Hi,

Within the Anglican Church 1 and 2 Maccabees are classed as apocryphal books although we use them within the lectionary for instruction they are not used for the establishment of doctrine. Again I don't how this apocryphal scripture proves or disproves the Roman Catholic Doctrine of Purgatory it simply says sacrifices and prayers were offered up for those who died in battle. Much the same as our local Priest prayed for the fallen on our memorial day. Even this extract from the Catholic Study Bible only says that within the Roman Catholic Church some use this reference to try and prove the Biblical basis for Purgatory.

Prayers for the Living and Dead

One of the most significant texts in this book for Roman Catholic theology is 12, 42–46. Here the author wished to show that Judas Maccabee believed in the resurrection of the dead since he ordered prayers and sacrifices for those who had fallen in battle. The author concludes that such prayers would be futile unless Judas believed that they would rise again (12,44). Sometimes this text is used as support for the Roman Catholic belief in purgatory and the efficacy of the prayers of the living for the dead.
Another significant text for Roman Catholics is 2Maccabees 15, 12–16. Here Judas Maccabee has a dream in which he sees the prophet Jeremiah praying for the Jews and Jerusalem. Catholic tradition accepts this text as one support for the belief in the efficacy of the intercession of the saints.

Pax et Bonum, Gordon

PS.... you are probably not going to get much discussion in the particular area on the forum about a doctrine that is not really covered by any other denomination. If you want to engage in a deeper conversation regarding this doctrine you may be better following up in the Roman Catholic specific area.

Although our Orthodox brothers and sisters also pray for the dead I don't believe they do as our Roman Catholic brothers and sisters do, it seems to unique to your family.

 

[prodromos]

Although our Orthodox brothers and sisters also pray for the dead I don't believe they do as our Roman Catholic brothers and sisters do, it seems to unique to your family

He doesn't seem to want to engage us Orthodox in discussion. Probably because he knows he will fail.

 

[prodromos]

Dear Zeland,
I recommend you get hold of a copy of the Orthodox Funeral Service so that you can read the many beautiful prayers asking God to have mercy on the soul of the departed, to grant them rest and to forgive any sins which might keep them from standing among the righteous. There is nothing at all which even hints at having to make some sort of restitution for sins they may have committed. We pray for them because we love them, and knowing that there may have been things hidden from us of which God is aware, we do not presume to judge that they were righteous. Since God knows their every thought and deed we ask Him to be merciful and forgive them out of his boundless love and mercy.

I challenge you to find what you believe is lacking in our understanding and how purgatory somehow fills that void.

I should also point out that Eastern Catholics use the same service for funerals as the Orthodox Church.

 

[Albion]

And as for the Maccabees passage, there is nothing in it which recommends the practice or approves of it. We are simply told that this is something that some Jews of that time and place chose to do. Not everything done by OT Jews is considered by us Christians to be part of OUR religion, obviously.

 

[tz620q]

Both Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox pray for their dead, have liturgies served for them, perform acts of charity in their name and have regular memorials for them yet there is no concept of purgatory in either Church and Rome's divergence from them predates any development of the doctrine of purgatory in the West. So it would seem that the doctrine of purgatory is a modern innovation that did not exist in the early Church, else you would see some form of it in every ancient Church.

This has me scratching my head. What exactly are you praying for? I commend you for doing this; but if they are already in heaven wouldn't it be more profitable to ask them to pray for you?

 

[Albion]

As is often said, perhaps particularly in Catholic circles, you can pray for anything, even if you think it's impossible.

In this case, the prayers are for God's mercy, basically upon all, and certainly upon all believers. What exactly happens in the afterlife, how the progress of the soul takes place, and all of that...we just don't know. But we can pray for God to look with favor upon all whom he has redeemed, to let his face shine upon them, and to grant them continual growth in his love and service.

 

[~Anastasia~]

This has me scratching my head. What exactly are you praying for? I commend you for doing this; but if they are already in heaven wouldn't it be more profitable to ask them to pray for you?

If we assume they are in heaven, in essence, we are presuming to know the state of their heart and judging them. As Orthodox, we tend to leave this STRICTLY to God.

This is probably the main reason for the canonizing of Saints - those we have essentially proof of their being in God's favor.

However ... we are not strictly forbidden from asking anyone to pray for us, even non-canonized. In fact, people having asked prayers of those who have died, and receiving miraculous answers, is often a requirement for a person being canonized.

I have a VERY sweet, loving lady who baptized me into the Orthodox Church, becoming my "godmother" in the process. She taught me a LOT about expressing love and honor to those we admire in the faith. Sadly (for me) she fell asleep in the Lord less than a year later. From all I know of her, I am reasonably sure she is with Christ. However ... I do pray for her. And then I turn right around and ask her to pray for me, and to kiss Jesus' hand for me.

She may very likely not need my prayers, but I offer them anyway. Who can know if another person suffered doubts as they were leaving this life, or harbored and cherished some secret sin, or what have you, and how God judges a person's heart? I doubt these things, but I love her so I pray for her, as an expression of that love and as the only thing I can really do for her at this point.

But for those who are canonized, meaning we do know with reasonable surety they died pleasing to God, I don't ever pray for them, and I doubt anyone else does either.

 

[Ron Gurley]

removed

 

[Ron Gurley]

removed

 

[BNR32FAN]

The following is a list of scriptural passages that show either the existence of, or the necessity of Purgatory. There may be additional scriptures that need to be added to this list, but it is the most complete list I have seen so far.

New Testament​

2 Timothy 1:16-18 – Paul prays for mercy for his dead friend Onesiphorus. 16 “May the Lord show mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, because he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chains. 17 On the contrary, when he was in Rome, he searched hard for me until he found me. 18 May the Lord grant that he will find mercy from the Lord on that day (Judgment Day)! You know very well in how many ways he helped me in Ephesus”.

All the commentaries I have read on this passage suggest that Paul’s friend is dead. The general context of the passage seems to be one of a funeral. Paul is praying for the family of the deceased, much like we do today. Paul is also praying that God will be merciful on his friend on Judgement Day. Question? Why is Paul praying for a dead person? What purpose would this serve? This Passage parallels 2 Samuel 1:12 below.

Matthew 5:25-26 – “… Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny” (made restitution for the harm our sins have caused). See 2 Samuel 12:13-14 below

Luke 12:58-59 - “… I tell you, you will never get out until you have paid the very last penny”.
Note, for the above two verses See the parallel case in Matthew 18:34 (18:22-34).

In the above verses of Matthew and Luke, Our Lord is using the idea of a debtor’s prison (something the people were very familiar with), to teach then about another type of prison – a spiritual prison – Purgatory!

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 - “…the person will be saved, but only as through fire.” Also see Hebrews 12:5-3, and Hebrews 12:5-23. “… and the spirits of the just made perfect”.

Matthew 12:32 – “And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come”. There are two parts (meanings) to this passage. The term “speaks against the Holy Spirit” (also known as the sin against the Holy Spirit) refers to the unforgivable sin of final impenitence – refusing to repent. Without repentance, a person’s sins can never be forgiven.

Now the second part - “neither in this world, nor in the world to come”, indicates that some sins can be forgiven after death. These are minor sins and imperfections, which are not serious enough to send us to hell, but must be atoned for before we can enter heaven. See Revelation 21:27 below. Also see 1 John 5:16-17, and Luke 12:47-48 for the distinction between serious (mortal) sins, and lesser (venial) sins. John refers to these as a sin unto death, and a sin not unto death.

Matthew 12:36 – “But I say unto you, that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof on the Day of Judgment”. Also see supporting verses 1 John 5:16-17, and Luke 12:47-48.

Matthew 5:48 – Be ye perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Revelation 21:27 - (The heavenly Jerusalem) - And there shall not enter into it anything defiled (impure, unclean, etc. – in other words, no imperfections in heaven). See the next verse below.

Old Testament​

Habakkuk 1:13 – “Your eyes are too pure to look on evil; you cannot tolerate iniquity” – Parallels Revelation 21:27 above.

2 Samuel 1:11-12 - “David …and his men …and they mourned, and wept, and fasted until evening for Saul, and for Jonathan his son, and for the people of the Lord … because they had fallen by the sword”. Fasting is a form of prayer and penance – in this case, for the dead. This passage parallels (correlates with) 2 Timothy 1:16-18, above where Paul is praying for his dead friend Onesiphorus.

2 Samuel 12:13-14 And David said to Nathan: “I have sinned against the Lord”. And Nathan said to David: “The Lord also hath taken away thy sin: thou shall not die.14 Nevertheless, because thou hast given occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, for this thing, the child that is born to thee, shall surely die”. Note! This verse shows that, even though our sins are forgiven, we must still make up for the harm those sins have caused, either temporal or spiritual.

2 Maccabees 12:43-45 - 43 …46 “it is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from their sins”. This verse from Maccabees is the most direct scripture reference to Purgatory (which is why Martin Luther removed it. See Revelation 22:18-19).

The verses you've chosen don't teach purgatory. By the way you forgot 1 Peter 1:7 but that's not discussing purgatory either. That is an assumption made by the catholic church. We should not form doctrines based on assumptions. Notice that not one of these verses of scriptures are discussing purgatory or purification after death in its context. You have to examine the context of what the verse is referring to. The teaching of purgatory was formulated at the council of Trent and Florence. During the time when there was much corruption in the catholic church. The inquisitions were in effect and the church was selling indulgences. Personally I believe that is why purgatory was invented to begin with. To solicit more indulgences. The teaching of purgatory contradicts many scriptures. Paul said that we are reconciled and made right with God by Jesus' sacrifice and we are able to enter the most Holy place. Hence the vail was torn from top to bottom. All these references are stated in the past tense indicating that these things have already taken place.

“For in hope were we saved: but hope that is seen is not hope: for who hopeth for that which he seeth?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:24‬ ‭ASV‬‬

“yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and without blemish and unreproveable before him: if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation under heaven; whereof I Paul was made a minister.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:22-23‬ ‭ASV‬‬

“And such were some of you: but ye were washed, but ye were sanctified, but ye were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭6:11‬ ‭ASV‬‬

“And their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, by the way which he dedicated for us, a new and living way, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:17-20‬ ‭ASV‬‬

So the verses the catholic church claim to be proof of purgatory are not directly discussing purgatory or purification after death. They only assume that those verses are describing purgatory but the verses I've posted contradict their assumptions. We know the bible does not contradict itself. So that means their assumption was incorrect. Jesus has already paid the price in full. Our salvation is a gift from God's grace. The definition of grace is a free and unmerited favor of God. We cannot earn it or pay for it.

 

[zeland2236]

IMHO" ALL Bible verses cited are big stretch as supporting The RCC doctrine of "Purgatory"

How about this one?

Hebrews 9:27
And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

Is "Purgatory" a spiritual realm like:
"Heaven" vs "Lake of Fire/ Hell" ???

What About Heb. 9:27 What point are you trying to make?

 

[zeland2236]

OP: Q: Scriptural references to Purgatory - Old and New Testament

A: NONE!

By what authority do you make this proclamation?