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Scriptural Problem of the Flood and Literalism

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Vance

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If we take a literal reading of Gen. 6:17, we see that God is indicating a destruction of ALL life other than that which is saved on the Ark. This would mean all plant life, all bacteria life, all fish (based on a literal reading, you can't get around that point), every insect, every arachnid, everything that was living, but not on the ark, is to be destroyed.

Now, would it not be true, then, that everything that IS in the Ark would, by the Scriptural description, come out into a life-less wasteland. Not just based on the possible effect of a global flood, but based on the fact that a literal reading of the text *requires* it: "everything on earth will perish." When, under literalism, is "everything" not "everything"?

That means that there would be nothing for any of the surviving creatures to eat except each other. And, of course, that would work for the meat-eaters, but what about the plant-eaters. They would all die off almost immediately without their diet.

And, how would all such plant life be restored without existing plant life? What about all those animals who eat insects or fungus or bacteria, etc, etc?

I will not even get into the fish problem other than to say that if they were on the earth, and not on the ark, a literal reading requires their complete and utter destruction.

So, if there was a global flood, there would HAVE to have been a second creation event to replace all that which was destroyed but which was not on the ark. But there is no mention of a second creation, and according to YEC's, it is not right to add this type of major detail into Scripture.

Of course, we have a clue in the text itself when the bird returns with an olive branch. All life was NOT destroyed. So, for those of us who believe that the Scripture is true and is the Word of God, it can not be that the Scripture is internally inconsistent. It must be that the verses describing the extent of the destruction can not be read literally.

And, since YECs argue that there is no clue in the text that these verses are NOT to be read literally, then the concept that we MUST read literally unless there is an indication not to do so is simply nonsense.

And, if we are required to read these Scriptures non-literally even without a marker or clue to do so, what is the problem with reading other Scripture (ie, other parts of Genesis) non-literally?
 

Beowulf

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For 2000 years many much more educated than anyone on these forums have attempted to prove the bible wrong or do workarounds to include their own ideas. None has succeeded. It's an easy matter to point and accuse.
If you think you're the only one that has ever brought up any particular objections to the bible then you give yourself far too much credit.
In all cases the bible has been defended. If it hadn't I'm quite sure the secular world would have made it VERY prominently known by now by blasting it all over the media. So far I know of no such claim. The bible has stood on it's own under the closest of scrutiny under all the microscopes anyone could devise.

No, I personally can not answer your objections to the bible. But someone has, successfully at some point I'm sure. Otherwise we would have been made to know about it under no uncertain terms.
 
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Vance

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Beowulf said:
Sure are a lot of problems with the bible huh?
Man, someone needs to fix all that.
I know, let's just say it never really happened and get on with things.

Fixed :thumbsup:
No problem with the Bible at all, just a problem with one particular way of reading it. But no problem which an abandonment of strict literalism can't fix.

Care to address the issues? Or those raised in the Cain thread?

I hear lots of "hey, you TE's never discuss the Scripture!"

Well, here I am, and it is with reverence for the truth of God's Word, but serious problems with the strict literal interpretation of it.
 
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owen_rocks

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Vance said:
If we take a literal reading of Gen. 6:17, we see that God is indicating a destruction of ALL life other than that which is saved on the Ark.
It says in 6:17 "all flesh in which is the breath of life". Plants aren't flesh
and don't breathe. :)

Also, Genesis 7:21-23 further elaborates on what was destroyed.

I believe the Bible is silent on the preservation of plant life during the
flood.

regards,
o/r
 
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Vance

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Beowulf said:
For 2000 years many much more educated than anyone on these forums have attempted to prove the bible wrong or do workarounds to include their own ideas. None has succeeded. It's an easy matter to point and accuse.
If you think you're the only one that has ever brought up any particular objections to the bible then you give yourself far too much credit.
In all cases the bible has been defended. If it hadn't I'm quite sure the secular world would have made it VERY prominently known by now by blasting it all over the media. So far I know of no such claim. The bible has stood on it's own under the closest of scrutiny under all the microscopes anyone could devise.

No, I personally can not answer your objections to the bible. But someone has, successfully at some point I'm sure. Otherwise we would have been made to know about it under no uncertain terms.
But you are making a VERY serious mistake here. You seem to have gotten it into your head that I am trying to prove the Bible wrong or that I have objections to the Bible. Where in the world did you get this idea, despite the fact that I have told you dozens of times that I think the Bible is all true?!

You also have the idea in your head that the literal reading of Scripture (YOUR reading of Scripture) is what all true Christians believe that it says, or that this has always been the way it has been read. I am not sure if this is because you have just not ever learned anything to the contrary, or just like to believe that all other interpretations must be a fringe minority of marginal Christians.

The bottom line is that we are not debating whether the Bible is correct, or whether it is true, or whether it is the Holy Word of God. It is all these things. The question is whether that truth and correctness is found in a literal reading or a non-literal reading in a given passage.

You are using the fallacy of the straw man, and it is just not very becoming.
 
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Vance

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owen_rocks said:
It says in 6:17 "all flesh in which is the breath of life". Plants aren't flesh
and don't breathe. :)

Also, Genesis 7:21-23 further elaborates on what was destroyed.

I believe the Bible is silent on the preservation of plant life during the
flood.

regards,
o/r
Ah, but it says He is going to "destroy all life under the heavens" then mentions to those with breath in particular, then mentions again "Everything on earth will perish".

7:23 says "every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out" then it goes on to specify some of that which was killed. Nowhere does it say that those specifically named were all that was wiped out. In addition to those specifically listed, it says three times in this text that EVERYTHING living was destroyed.

So, we have two parts of these verses, once which says EVERYTHING and one which identifies certain things. The latter can not conflict with the former, so it must be simply identifying some of the things among those which were destroyed. To read it any other way would be to allow the second part to conflict with the first part.

Now, what you are doing is what the literalist says can not be done: interpreting Scripture beyond the basic, plain reading. What you are doing is what you SHOULD be doing, and indeed, what the strict literalist actually do themselves, but don't even see it.
 
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Beowulf

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Genesis 7:23
23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.


Sure, I can see that happening. Why not? Seeds can survive a long time underground along with many eggs and a multitude of other things underground. Why do probes to Mars dig the soil to look for life?

/edit:
Ever look under a rock? Find anything there?
 
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Ben_Hur

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How do you suppose that olive tree grew so fast (about 47 days) such that the bird could bring back an olive leaf "recently torn off" (Gen 8:11) as it states in the hebrew?

ṭârâph
taw-rawf'

recently torn off, that is, fresh: - pluckt off.

 
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GodSaves

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Why do I believe the flood was global?

Genesis 7:19
"They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered."

Everytime these types of arguments are brought up, 'how can it be we don't have the evidence and cannot see it in the earth,' or the 'I don't believe what God says here to be true, only truth,' I think of a passage.

"Who is this who darkens my counsel by words without knowledge? Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you will answer Me. Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell Me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? " ....."Have you ever given orders to the morning, or shown the dawn its place, that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it?....Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea or walked in the recesses of the deep? Have the gates of death been shown to you? Have you seen the gates of the shadow of death? Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth? Tell me, if you know all this. What is the way to the abode of light? And where does darkness reside? Can you take them to their places? Do you know the paths to their dwellings Surely you know, for you were already born! You have lived so many years!" ..... "Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct Him? Let him who accuses God answer Him! ... Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me. Would you discredit my justice? Would you condemn me to justify yourself? Do you have an arm like God's and can your voice thunder like His? Then adorn yourself with glory and splendor, and clothe yourself in honor and majesty. Unleash the fury of your wrath, look at every proud man and bring him low, look at every proud man and humble him, crush the wicked where they stand. Bury them all in the dust together; shroud their faces in the grave. Then I myself will admit to you that your own right hand can save you."

Job 38-40

God's response to Job who questioned God and His Word to be true or not.
 
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versastyle

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GodSaves said:
Job did the same as you.
You obviously do not understand what I said.

I'm not questioning God. I'm questioning what should be considered God's word, and then deciding how to read what has been considered God's word.

Is a newspaper God's word? Is a magazine? A novel? Greek mythology? A report card?
 
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GodSaves

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So I guess you don't believe Paul when he told Timothy that all scripture is God breathed. Breathed can mean inspired, or move in the greek. The same word is used to describe the boat of the disciples being pushed or moved. It denotes an actual physical movement. God actually physically inspired and moved the authors to write what was told to them by God.

You will notice in the Bible Peter speaks that prophecy did not come from man but originated from God. That God spoke to the prophets and told them what to say.

So tell me what God inspired means to you.
 
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GodSaves

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  1. All The Mountains Were Covered. The tops of all the high mountains under the entire heavens were at least 20 feet beneath the waters surface (Genesis 7:19-20). It would be absurd to think that a flood covering the highest mountains of the Middle East would not affect the rest of the world. In addition, the waters remained at this awesome, mountain-covering height for five months! (Genesis 7:18-24, 8:1-5).



    [*]The Ark Was Huge.
    The ark was necessary to prevent the extinction of humans and animals. If the Flood were merely local, God could have sent them to a safer part of the world. God warned Noah about the Flood 120 years prior to its start. Surely, Noah and his family could have traveled a great distance in that time. Also, if the Flood was local, the ark was unnecessarily large. Until the first metal ships were constructed in modern times, the ark was the largest ship ever built. It was big enough to house representative pairs of every created-kind of air-breathing, land animal on Earth.

    [*]Humans Populated The Entire World.
    After more than 1600 years of habitation on Earth, the planet's population was surely large (millions or billions). The Bible confirms that (a) Man had multiplied upon the face of the Earth (Genesis 6:1), (b) Violence and corruption filled the Earth (Genesis 6:11-12). The Bible is clear that man could not have existed only in the Mesopotamian region - a region too small to support such a large population, especially considering the natural dispersion affect of a violent society.

    [*]All Humans Were Killed.
    The Bible clearly teaches that all flesh died...every man (Genesis 7:21). Genesis 9:1 confirms that only Noah's family was saved and that every person living today is descended from his family.

    [*]All Air-Breathing, Land Animals Killed.
    The world's entire population of air-breathing, land animals died, except those taken into the ark (Genesis 7:21) - "everything on Earth" (Genesis 6:17) - "all living creatures of every kind on the Earth" (Genesis 9:16). If only those animals in a specific geographic location died, it would seem unnecessary for God to protect pairs in the ark for the express purpose of preventing their extinction. Surely there would be representatives of their kinds in other areas. If, on the other hand, there were some unique kinds of animals in the local flood's path, then it would seem more logical for God to send representative pairs out of the area, rather than to the ark, as He did. The Bible is clear that all the air-breathing, land animals perished during the flood, except those preserved with Noah - from which all modern animals are descended.

    [*]A "Cataclysm," Not A Mere Flood.
    Both Hebrew (Old Testament) and Greek (New Testament) use words to describe Noah's flood which are different than the ordinary words for flood. In this way, Noah's flood was represented as a totally unique occurrence. [Hebrew / "Mabbool" - Greek / "Kataklusmos" (cataclysm)].

    [*]God's Rainbow Promise.
    God promised never again to send a global flood (Genesis 8:21, 9:8-17). This promise is demonstrated by the symbol of the rainbow, a sign for God's promise to all the Earth. The rainbow is a sign to every living creature, mankind and animals. If this promise was not made to all creatures on Earth, then God has broken His promise. Local floods have repeatedly killed hundreds and even thousands of humans and animals since Noah's time.

    [*]Why Stay In The Ark A Year?!
    Noah was in the ark for more than a year, not just 40 days (Genesis 8:14). 53 weeks is absurdly long to stay in the ark for a local flood since dry land would have been just over the horizon. After the flood waters had been going down for 4 months, the dove could still find no suitable ground (Genesis 8:9). This does not seem to fit the circumstances for a local flood in which the dove could fly to dry land. However, these situations are consistent if the Flood was global.

    [*]The Whole Earth Was Devastated.
    God said, "I am surely going to destroy both them (the people) and the Earth" (Genesis 6:13b). The global extent of the Flood is referred to more than 30 times in Genesis 6-9 alone! In Isaiah 54:9, God states, "I swore that the waters of Noah would never again cover the Earth." Peter delivered a clear global warning, confirming that God created the Earth, devastated it by the Flood, and will one day destroy it again by fire (2 Peter 3:5-7). Peter certainly did not mean that just a local area on Earth would be burned. Just as the Flood was global, so will be the final judgment.
 
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versastyle

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GodSaves said:
So I guess you don't believe Paul when he told Timothy that all scripture is God breathed. Breathed can mean inspired, or move in the greek. The same word is used to describe the boat of the disciples being pushed or moved. It denotes an actual physical movement. God actually physically inspired and moved the authors to write what was told to them by God.
I don't know if I agree with this analysis of me, but I also don't have an opinion to counter it either.

About the "Scripture" statement though....

Paul failed to define "scripture" in his statement. This is something you end up deciding on your own, or you just take the NT/OT Bible at face value as being the only scripture, which is in essence another faith.

So tell me what God inspired means to you.
God guided.

And/or

God manipulated.

And/or

God written.

And/or

Something written while thinking and praying.
 
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