Scriptural Poll: Do We Have Free Will?

[stan1953]

Stan, would you please show me "in scripture," where it is taught that man, created in God's image possesses free will, as this is one of the attributes a human creature has? Could you also show me "in scripture," and show me what we did to that image at the fall? What we lost and what we kept?

I'm really curious of your understanding here. Thanks.

The 'concept' is throughout scripture, just like the Trinity. Do you believe in the Trinity concept?
Do you believe Paul was an Apostle of Christ to the Gentiles and that his Epistles are God inspired? Read Philemon 14, but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will. NASB
Well as I don't see "the fall" concept in scripture, I don't think there would be anything to quote about a non-existent event. Maybe you can show me scripture that shows "the fall"?

 

[Lindas Place]

I don't get it. How does Jonah prove free will as far as Choosing Christ for salvation goes?

Also, how far did Jonah's free will get him? It got him exactly where God wanted him.

Jonah doesn't prove freewill as far as choosing Christ.... it does show our lack of freewill as a child of God... my freewill has never stopped our Father from disciplining me and He has never asked for my permission... That puts a wrench in my freewill…

 

[stan1953]

I don't get it. How does Jonah prove free will as far as Choosing Christ for salvation goes?

Also, how far did Jonah's free will get him? It got him exactly where God wanted him.

Exactly, and clearly demonstrates God KNOWS what's best for us and that we always need to submit our freewill to Him.

 

[Foghorn]

The 'concept' is throughout scripture, just like the Trinity.

Ok, so if it is throughout scripture, show me (in context) that man can choose Chris tof his own free will.

Do you believe in the Trinity concept?

Yes, I believe in the Trinity.

Do you believe Paul was an Apostle of Christ to the Gentiles and that his Epistles are God inspired?

I believe all of God's word is inspired.

Read Philemon 14, but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will. NASB

Are you saying this prove that man has free will for salvation?

Well as I don't see "the fall" concept in scripture, I don't think there would be anything to quote about a non-existent event.Maybe you can show me scripture that shows "the fall"?

You deny the fall in the book of Genesis?

 

[Foghorn]

Jonah doesn't prove freewill as far as choosing Christ.... it does show our lack of freewill as a child of God... my freewill has never stopped our Father from disciplining me and He has never asked for my permission... That puts a wrench in my freewill…

Ok,

 

[Foghorn]

Exactly, and clearly demonstrates God KNOWS what's best for us and that we always need to submit our freewill (limited) to Him.

Man has free will according to his nature.

 

[Foghorn]

The human will is not free.
It cannot resist God's will. It cannot overcome or defy God's will, except by His consent. In any competition between the two human will always fails.
That's the first limitation of the human, supoosedly free, will.
We cannot know all of the events both humans and circumstantial conditions that bring us to any given moment of choice.
We cannot know all possible alternatives in any given choice.
We cannot know all the possible consequences to all the possible alternatives brought about by an unknown nuber of circumstances.
We cannot transcend time or space or the specific causality of this world in which we live.
We cannot transcend the influence of a fallen world on our fallen life without the shed blood of Christ and God's Holy Spirit at work in our lives.

I could go a little further, but the point is: the human will is not free. No human since Adam has been free and even that was not complete autonomy and lasted briefly. The judgment has been rendered: humans prefer darkness over light (Jn. 3:19).

 

[RisingSpirit]

NO to free will.
The Qi controls you.
Without the living dies.

 

[Foghorn]

The Qi controls you.

What is "Qi?"

 

[stan1953]

Ok, so if it is throughout scripture, show me (in context) that man can choose Chris tof his own free will.

Oh so now you want to narrow it to if we can choose Christ or not? Are you now saying we have free will, but NOT when it comes to choosing Christ as our Saviour?

Yes, I believe in the Trinity.
I believe all of God's word is inspired.
Are you saying this prove that man has free will for salvation?

Are you saying man has freewill BUT not for salvation?

You deny the fall in the book of Genesis?

Obviously not, I just deny that Genesis or any otehr book in the OT talks about the FALL of man, as you put it. Instead of delflecting by asking another question, maybe you can try answering some?

 

[stan1953]

Man has free will according to his nature.

First of all, DO NOT change my quotes again, or I will report you.

Secondly, freewill is freewill.

 

[stan1953]

The human will is not free.
It cannot resist God's will. It cannot overcome or defy God's will, except by His consent. In any competition between the two human will always fails.
That's the first limitation of the human, supoosedly free, will.
We cannot know all of the events both humans and circumstantial conditions that bring us to any given moment of choice.
We cannot know all possible alternatives in any given choice.
We cannot know all the possible consequences to all the possible alternatives brought about by an unknown nuber of circumstances.
We cannot transcend time or space or the specific causality of this world in which we live.
We cannot transcend the influence of a fallen world on our fallen life without the shed blood of Christ and God's Holy Spirit at work in our lives.

I could go a little further, but the point is: the human will is not free. No human since Adam has been free and even that was not complete autonomy and lasted briefly. The judgment has been rendered: humans prefer darkness over light (Jn. 3:19).

You can spount all the Calvinism you like, but saying it doesn't make it true unless you can support it with properly exegeted scripture.

John 3:19 must be taken WITHIN the context of where it is contained. John 3:16-21, For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

The highlighted text clearly shows our will, freewill, in action. That is unless you feel you are a programmed robot. I DON'T.

 

[Foghorn]

First of all, DO NOT change my quotes again, or I will report you.

Oops, I just noticed. I meant to edit my words, sorry, I truly didn't mean to change your words.

Secondly, freewill is freewill.

So? What is that suppose to mean?

 

[stan1953]

Oops, I just noticed. I meant to edit my words, sorry, I truly didn't mean to change your words.

So? What is that suppose to mean?

It means what I said...freewill is freewill. It is NOT limited to non-spiritual decisions. It is used for EVERYTHING we decide to do or not do in our life, good or bad.

 

[Foghorn]

Oh so now you want to narrow it to if we can choose Christ or not?

That's what I have been talking about.

Are you now saying we have free will, but NOT when it comes to choosing Christ as our Saviour?

I'm saying, man does not have free will to choose Christ for salvation.

Are you saying man has freewill BUT not for salvation?

See above.

Obviously not, I just deny that Genesis or any otehr book in the OT talks about the FALL of man, as you put it. Instead of delflecting by asking another question, maybe you can try answering some?

I'm not sure if answering any questions will do any good since you deny what it obvious in Genesis. How can you deny the fall of man? Why did Christ come? Why is Christ called the second Adam?

Do you believe in original sin? Do you believe we are all born spiritually dead in sin?
Or, do you believe what Pelagious taught?

 

[Foghorn]

You can spount all the Calvinism you like, but saying it doesn't make it true unless you can support it with properly exegeted scripture.

John 3:19 must be taken WITHIN the context of where it is contained. John 3:16-21, For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

The highlighted text clearly shows our will, freewill, in action. That is unless you feel you are a programmed robot. I DON'T.

Your highlights do not prove free will.

For example: Whosoever believes in Him is not condemned, is a fact, it does not teach free will.

 

[Foghorn]

You can spount all the Calvinism you like, but saying it doesn't make it true unless you can support it with properly exegeted scripture.

John 3:19 must be taken WITHIN the context of where it is contained. John 3:16-21, For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

The highlighted text clearly shows our will, freewill, in action. That is unless you feel you are a programmed robot. I DON'T.

Consider all your highlights, which are facts not examples of free will in action, and consider this passage: John 1:
9 The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. 11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

[Foghorn]

Consider all your highlights, which are facts not examples of free will in action, and consider this passage: John 1:
9 The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. 11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Ill add one more for you to consider: John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

 

[stan1953]

That's what I have been talking about.

yes and as I have demonstrated repeatedly, you are wrong.

I'm saying, man does not have free will to choose Christ for salvation.

and again I am saying you are wrong, or maybe you would care to provide scriptures to support your assertion.

I'm not sure if answering any questions will do any good since you deny what it obvious in Genesis. How can you deny the fall of man? Why did Christ come? Why is Christ called the second Adam?

So if there is a so-called 'fall' that is OBVIOUS, where is it depicted? I deny what you say happened. Christ came to reconcile us back to God. Christ is not called the second Adam, nor is He. The fact is, He existed before Adam, so how could he be the second? You may want to read 1 Cor 15 to get your facts straight.
God/Jesus/Holy Spirit, created Adam/adam.

Do you believe in original sin? Do you believe we are all born spiritually dead in sin? Or, do you believe what Pelagious taught?

I believe in the first sin that Eve committed. I don't believe we are BORN spiritually dead. I don't know who Pelagious is.

Now maybe you would be kind enough to commit yourself by answering my questions instead of asking more.

 

[stan1953]

Your highlights do not prove free will.

For example: Whosoever believes in Him is not condemned, is a fact, it does not teach free will.

It all teaches freewill. You think belief is programmed into us? We choose to believe just as in Joshua 24:15,
But if it doesn’t please you to worship Yahweh, choose for yourselves today the one you will worship: the gods your fathers worshiped beyond the Euphrates River or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living. As for me and my family, we will worship Yahweh.”

How do you figure we can accept Christ if it's not from our freewill. To accpet means you are given the choice aand choice is based on freewill.
Read Mark 4:20 and James 1:21