Scriptural Evidence That Hell Might Not Be Eternal

[Mikecpking]

Actually, the soul does indeed leave the body upon death.

1 Kings 17:22 (KJV) And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.

The word translated 'soul' here is from the Hebrew word 'nephesh'. When a living creature or person dies, the 'nephesh' departs, but does not go someplace else. 'It' dies at physical death, because the basic meaning of 'nephesh' is life

Here are 4 verses for you to ponder on:

DT 12:23

For the life (nephesh, 'soul') is the blood.

Deuteronomy 12:23 (King James Version)


23Only be sure that thou eat not the blood: for the blood is the life; and thou mayest not eat the life with the flesh.

Lev 17:11
Leviticus 17:11 (King James Version)


11For the life(nephesh) of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls(nephesh): for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul(nephesh).



So the blood is the vehicle of soul, hence what one would call 'life blood'.

Judges 16:30 (King James Version)


30And Samson said, Let me(nephesh) die with the Philistines.

Here, Samson is asking Gog to take away his life (he will die!) Same Hebrew word, nephesh)

Numbers 23:10 (King James Version)


10Who can count the dust of Jacob, and the number of the fourth part of Israel? Let me(nephesh) die the death of the righteous, and let my last end be like his!

These verses prove that 'nephesh' dies at physical death.

In order for the soul to come into the child again, the soul would first have to have left the body.

Scripture also reveals that the soul left Rachel's body...

Genesis 35:18 (KJV) And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.

There is no such thing as soul sleep. When the mortal body dies, the body is committed to the ground, while the soul goes to either heaven or hell. If it goes to hell, it will experience all the torment of hell.

The definition of soul you are using uis incorrect. If you were to replace the word 'soul' with 'life', then you have a better understanding of the Hebrew word 'nephesh' which cannot be compared with Plato's definition of soul being read into scripture.

Here is Strong's definition of the word nephesh in which you have used as 'soul':

5315 nephesh neh'-fesh from 5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):--any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X (dis-)contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

There is nothing to suggest any immortal quality about 'nephesh'. There is not one verse that suggests souls go to heaven at death, but dead people go to the grave (sheol) whether righteous or evil. It sounds like you do not believe in the resurrection, nor the final judgement, if after all, one either goes to heaven or hell upon death eternally, what would the point of a resurection be?

 

[Mikecpking]

In the New Testament, the Word of God states:

2 Corinthians 5:8 (KJV) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Philippians 1:23 (KJV) For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

The basic meaning of death is separation. It has three different usages in the Bible in reference to man:

1. Spiritual death-separation from God because of sin:

Ephesians 2:1 (KJV) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Colossians 2:13 (KJV) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

2. Physical death-separation of the spirit from the body:

Matthew 2:15 (KJV) And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Genesis 35:18 (KJV) And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing,(for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.

James 2:26 (KJV) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

3. Eternal death or Second death-the final, eternal separation of the unsaved from God and life:

Revelation 20:14 (KJV) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 21:8 (KJV) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 (KJV) Who shall be punished with everlasting (perpetual) destruction (ruin, i.e. death, punishment) from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

When you die, the physical body is buried in the GRAVE where it decomposes. The GRAVE is not Sheol or Hades. The soul departs and either goes to Hell ... if one dies without Christ....or to Heaven to be with the Lord (absent from the body, present with the Lord). Hell is not annihilation and those lost souls will remain in Hell (Hades) until they are judged at the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). Death and hell will be cast into the Lake of Fire...then those whose names are not found written in the Book of Life will be cast into the Lake of Fire (Gehenna). This is eternal separation from God...forever and ever.

I would say to you look at 1 corinthians 15 as Paul spoke about the resurrection of the dead. Your interpretation of 2 cor 5:8 should be in context with the rest of scripture like Dan 12:2 and John 3:13,Acts 2:29, John 5:24 so what Paul was really saying is when he died, his next waking moment will be with the Lord, but that won't happen until the resurrection.

 

[Studious One]

Actually, the soul does indeed leave the body upon death.

1 Kings 17:22 (KJV) And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.
[/quote}

The word translated 'soul' here is from the Hebrew word 'nephesh'. When a living creature or person dies, the 'nephesh' departs, but does not go someplace else. 'It' dies at physical death, because the basic meaning of 'nephesh' is life

Here are 4 verses for you to ponder on:

DT 12:23

For the life (nephesh, 'soul') is the blood.

Deuteronomy 12:23 (King James Version)


23Only be sure that thou eat not the blood: for the blood is the life; and thou mayest not eat the life with the flesh.

Lev 17:11
Leviticus 17:11 (King James Version)


11For the life(nephesh) of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls(nephesh): for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul(nephesh).



So the blood is the vehicle of soul, hence what one would call 'life blood'.

Judges 16:30 (King James Version)


30And Samson said, Let me(nephesh) die with the Philistines.

Here, Samson is asking Gog to take away his life (he will die!) Same Hebrew word, nephesh)

Numbers 23:10 (King James Version)


10Who can count the dust of Jacob, and the number of the fourth part of Israel? Let me(nephesh) die the death of the righteous, and let my last end be like his!

These verses prove that 'nephesh' dies at physical death.





The definition of soul you are using uis incorrect. If you were to replace the word 'soul' with 'life', then you have a better understanding of the Hebrew word 'nephesh' which cannot be compared with Plato's definition of soul being read into scripture.

Here is Strong's definition of the word nephesh in which you have used as 'soul':

5315 nephesh neh'-fesh from 5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):--any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X (dis-)contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

There is nothing to suggest any immortal quality about 'nephesh'. There is not one verse that suggests souls go to heaven at death, but dead people go to the grave (sheol) whether righteous or evil. It sounds like you do not believe in the resurrection, nor the final judgement, if after all, one either goes to heaven or hell upon death eternally, what would the point of a resurection be?

At the resurrection, the bodies and souls of the saved will be reunited. Scripture tells us, "Them that are asleep will God bring with Him.' The 'them that are asleep' are the souls of the righteous dead.

Scripture then declares that the Lord will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, with the trump of God. And we shall not prevent them that are asleep. (this refers to those who are in the graves) We will not prevent them from coming up from their graves. They will stand for a split second upon the earth again. Then we which are alive in Him will be caught up together with them (those that had previously been in the graves) in the air. So shall we ever be with the Lord.

The wicked dead will not be so fortunate. When they die, their bodies will be buried, but their souls will go to hell to await their resurrection. When their resurrection happens, death (the grave) and hell (Hades) will give up their dead. Their bodies and souls will be reunited just as the bodies and souls of the righteous dead were just a little over a thousand years previously.

The only difference between the two resurrections is the fact that the resurrection of the righteous is a resurrection unto life and peace with Jesus Christ, while the wicked dead are resurrected to stand before God for their final judgment.

What is the point of the body and soul being resurrected? For we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give account for the deeds done in our body.

 

[sheina]

I would say to you look at 1 corinthians 15 as Paul spoke about the resurrection of the dead. Your interpretation of 2 cor 5:8 should be in context with the rest of scripture like Dan 12:2 and John 3:13,Acts 2:29, John 5:24 so what Paul was really saying is when he died, his next waking moment will be with the Lord, but that won't happen until the resurrection.

There will not be one general resurrection. There are at least four different resurrections spoken of in the Bible.

(1) The resurrection of Jesus Christ:

1 Corinthians 15:20 (KJV) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

The Old Testament feast of first fruits was a picture of Christ's resurrection as the first fruit of those who sleep in death:

Leviticus 23:9 (KJV) And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

Leviticus 23:10 (KJV) Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:

Leviticus 23:11 (KJV) And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.

Leviticus 23:12 (KJV) And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the first year for a burnt offering unto the LORD.

Leviticus 23:13 (KJV) And the meat offering thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the LORD for a sweet savour: and the drink offering thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin.

Leviticus 23:14 (KJV) And ye shall eat neither bread, nor parched corn, nor green ears, until the selfsame day that ye have brought an offering unto your God: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.

(2) The resurrection of New Testament believers at the Rapture:

1 Corinthians 15:23 (KJV) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 (KJV) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 (KJV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 (KJV) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 (KJV) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 (KJV) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4:18 (KJV) Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

(3) The resurrection of Israel and Old Testament saints at the coming of Christ:

Daniel 12:1 (KJV) And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Daniel 12:2 (KJV) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Daniel 12:3 (KJV) And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Daniel 12:13 (KJV) But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:5 (KJV) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:6 (KJV) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

(4) The resurrection of the unsaved dead following the Millennium:

Revelation 20:5 (KJV) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:6 (KJV) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:7 (KJV) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Revelation 20:8 (KJV) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Revelation 20:9 (KJV) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Revelation 20:10 (KJV) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:11 (KJV) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Revelation 20:12 (KJV) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Revelation 20:13 (KJV) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Revelation 20:14 (KJV) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 20:15 (KJV) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The saved shall be raised to eternal glory; the unsaved to eternal punishment and shame:

John 5:28 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

John 5:29 (KJV) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

There is NO soul sleep.

 

[Mikecpking]

At the resurrection, the bodies and souls of the saved will be reunited. Scripture tells us, "Them that are asleep will God bring with Him.' The 'them that are asleep' are the souls of the righteous dead.

Scripture then declares that the Lord will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, with the trump of God. And we shall not prevent them that are asleep. (this refers to those who are in the graves) We will not prevent them from coming up from their graves. They will stand for a split second upon the earth again. Then we which are alive in Him will be caught up together with them (those that had previously been in the graves) in the air. So shall we ever be with the Lord.

The wicked dead will not be so fortunate. When they die, their bodies will be buried, but their souls will go to hell to await their resurrection. When their resurrection happens, death (the grave) and hell (Hades) will give up their dead. Their bodies and souls will be reunited just as the bodies and souls of the righteous dead were just a little over a thousand years previously.

The only difference between the two resurrections is the fact that the resurrection of the righteous is a resurrection unto life and peace with Jesus Christ, while the wicked dead are resurrected to stand before God for their final judgment.

What is the point of the body and soul being resurrected? For we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give account for the deeds done in our body.

Basically, we are in agreement, but I do not use the term 'soul' as the idea about the soul in the bible is not the same as it is understood by. In other words, a dead person is no longer 'a soul' (nephesh), but a 'rephaim' in sheol where death is not extinction, but a weak form of life. You will notice terms like 'reunited with their souls' or 'souls that God will bring with him' is not in the bible. The bible is clear where we are until the resurrection, whether saved or not, but it is not a place of torment, but it is the grave (sheol, abode of all the dead).

Dan 12:2
John 5:28

Here is a more concise definition of the 'soul' as used in the bible:

[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']THE PICTURE - WINDOWS Nephesh - Psyche - Soul[/FONT]
The important passage in Genesis 2:7 sets the scene for this 'window - word' into the nature of personhood. An individual becomes a 'nephesh' from the infusion of divine breath into moulded dust. In physical terms 'nephesh' means, 'neck', 'throat', 'gullet' and came to mean 'life', that 'vital motion' which distinguishes a living being from a corpse.

'Nephesh' has such a variety of senses that we must make a careful definition in each particular case. Meanings overlap and are used side by side. It is easy to end up with contradictory statements about 'nephesh'. Here are some of the central statements about 'nephesh':-
• it is that vital life which is shared by both humans and animals [Gen 2:19].
• it is life that is bound up with the body, blood is the vehicle of nephesh [Dt 12:23], at death it dies [Nu 23:10] draining away with the blood, with resuscitation it 'returns'; not that it has gone anywhere.
• it can denote 'the living individual themselves' [Gen 14:21], and can replace the personal pronoun to create special emphasis [Ps 42:6], God uses it of himself [Am 6:8].
• it is strongly instinctive [animal] activity; desire, vital urge, feeling, emotion, mood [Dt 14:26].
• it is feelings and emotions of a spiritual kind; grief, pain, joy, peace, love [Ezk 27:31]; its highest expression is longing for God [Ps 25:1].
The New Testament uses the Greek 'psyche' with the sense of the Hebrew 'nephesh'. Paul's writings are significant for how rarely he uses it. The Synoptics are interesting in that one third of their usage refers to life beyond death [Mt 10:28,39; 16:25-26; Mk 8:35-37; Lk 9:24; 21:19], due to the overlap of present and future in the Kingdom of God; revolutionary in terms of its Hebrew roots.
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']This 'nephesh' is primarily the life of the whole person in terms of strongly instinctive [animal] [/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']activity. It reflects the glory and richness of God's gift of life to him though susceptible to [/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']death. It is not an independent substance which, as many have argued, survives death.[/FONT]

 

[DD2008]

If you guys are interested in the debate between conditionalists and traditionalists in regard to the duration of hell. Here is an interesting book on the subject:



Amazon.com: Two Views of Hell: A Biblical & Theological Dialogue (Spectrum) (9780830822553): Edward William Fudge…#_

 

[Mikecpking]

There will not be one general resurrection. There are at least four different resurrections spoken of in the Bible.

(1) The resurrection of Jesus Christ:

1 Corinthians 15:20 (KJV) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

The Old Testament feast of first fruits was a picture of Christ's resurrection as the first fruit of those who sleep in death:

Leviticus 23:9 (KJV) And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

Leviticus 23:10 (KJV) Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:

Leviticus 23:11 (KJV) And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.

Leviticus 23:12 (KJV) And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the first year for a burnt offering unto the LORD.

Leviticus 23:13 (KJV) And the meat offering thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the LORD for a sweet savour: and the drink offering thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin.

Leviticus 23:14 (KJV) And ye shall eat neither bread, nor parched corn, nor green ears, until the selfsame day that ye have brought an offering unto your God: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.

(2) The resurrection of New Testament believers at the Rapture:

1 Corinthians 15:23 (KJV) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 (KJV) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 (KJV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 (KJV) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 (KJV) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 (KJV) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4:18 (KJV) Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

(3) The resurrection of Israel and Old Testament saints at the coming of Christ:

Daniel 12:1 (KJV) And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Daniel 12:2 (KJV) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Daniel 12:3 (KJV) And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Daniel 12:13 (KJV) But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:5 (KJV) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:6 (KJV) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

(4) The resurrection of the unsaved dead following the Millennium:

Revelation 20:5 (KJV) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:6 (KJV) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:7 (KJV) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Revelation 20:8 (KJV) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Revelation 20:9 (KJV) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Revelation 20:10 (KJV) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:11 (KJV) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Revelation 20:12 (KJV) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Revelation 20:13 (KJV) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Revelation 20:14 (KJV) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 20:15 (KJV) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The saved shall be raised to eternal glory; the unsaved to eternal punishment and shame:

John 5:28 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

John 5:29 (KJV) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

There is NO soul sleep.

You are kidding me? You missed at least one resurrection as mentioned in Job 14!

True, Jesus was the first fruit of the resurrection, but you could also include Lazarus and Jarus' daughter to make a 6th and 7th.

Seriously, though; if the first resurrection is mentioned in Rev, then you can pretty much say the second resurrection at the end of the millenial reignb would be the same as Dan 12:2 as there will be one judgement.

The John 5:28 and the Thessalonians resurrection are one in the same event which couples with 1 corinthians 15.

As foir 'soul sleep', this term is a misnoma as clearly, the bible says the physical life of a person dies at physical death (numbers 23:10, Judges 16:30, Ezekiel 18:4 etc) and a person becvomes a 'rephaim' in sheol once the body returns to dust (gen 3:19, Psalm 88, Job 3 etc).

Daniel 12:2 clearly states 'those who sleep in the dust of the earth.. really likens death to asome kind of suspended animation, especially looking at Psalm 146:4 and Psalm 115:10, but we are not talking about disembodied souls, because that term or understanding does not occur outside a physical body

 

[Tavita]

Yes - Eternal life is knowing God, but this knowledge is not simply knowing information about God; it is having a relationship with him, involving response, obedience and continual fellowship that will last as long as God lasts - eternity.

Eternal life ceases to be eternal life if this quality of life can come to an end.

Is eternal life the same as immortality?

When we believe in the here and now we are given eternal life: we do not receive immortality until later.

 

[Studious One]

You are kidding me? You missed at least one resurrection as mentioned in Job 14!

True, Jesus was the first fruit of the resurrection, but you could also include Lazarus and Jarus' daughter to make a 6th and 7th.

Seriously, though; if the first resurrection is mentioned in Rev, then you can pretty much say the second resurrection at the end of the millenial reignb would be the same as Dan 12:2 as there will be one judgement.

The John 5:28 and the Thessalonians resurrection are one in the same event which couples with 1 corinthians 15.

As foir 'soul sleep', this term is a misnoma as clearly, the bible says the physical life of a person dies at physical death (numbers 23:10, Judges 16:30, Ezekiel 18:4 etc) and a person becvomes a 'rephaim' in sheol once the body returns to dust (gen 3:19, Psalm 88, Job 3 etc).

Daniel 12:2 clearly states 'those who sleep in the dust of the earth.. really likens death to asome kind of suspended animation, especially looking at Psalm 146:4 and Psalm 115:10, but we are not talking about disembodied souls, because that term or understanding does not occur outside a physical body

I see you haven't a clue as to what happens to a person and what happens to his or her soul at death.

You say they become a Rephaim. I suggest you do some homework. A Rephaim is a giant.

We have proof that one does not become a giant when one die due to the fact that they are the same size in their casket as they were just prior to their deaths. Also, bodies have been exhumed by forensic investigators that were no larger than what they were when they were planted in the ground 30 and 40 years prior.

It is quite obvious you are just making things up in order to make your doctrine look more feasible, but it ain't working.

 

[Timothew]

REPHAIM ref'-a-im, re-fa'-im (repha'-im, from rapha', "a terrible one "hence "giant," in 1 Chronicles 20:4, yelidhe ha-rapha', "sons of the giant"; the King James Version, Rephaims): A race of aboriginal or early inhabitants East of the Jordan in Ashterothkarnaim (Genesis 14:5) and in the valley of Rephaim Southwest of Jerusalem (Joshua 15:8). They associated with other giant races, as the Emim and Anakim (Deuteronomy 2:10, 11) and the Zamzummim (Deuteronomy 2:20). It is probable that they were all of the same stock, being given different names by the different tribes who came in contact with them. The same Hebrew word is rendered "the dead," or "the shades" in various passages (Job 26:5 margin; Psalm 88:10 margin; Proverbs 2:18 margin; Proverbs 9:18 margin; Proverbs 21:16 margin; Isaiah 14:9 margin; Isaiah 26:14, 19 margin). In these instances the word is derived from rapheh, "weak," "powerless," "a shadow" or "shade."

Source: International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (on biblos.com)

 

[Studious One]

REPHAIM ref'-a-im, re-fa'-im (repha'-im, from rapha', "a terrible one "hence "giant," in 1 Chronicles 20:4, yelidhe ha-rapha', "sons of the giant"; the King James Version, Rephaims): A race of aboriginal or early inhabitants East of the Jordan in Ashterothkarnaim (Genesis 14:5) and in the valley of Rephaim Southwest of Jerusalem (Joshua 15:8). They associated with other giant races, as the Emim and Anakim (Deuteronomy 2:10, 11) and the Zamzummim (Deuteronomy 2:20). It is probable that they were all of the same stock, being given different names by the different tribes who came in contact with them. The same Hebrew word is rendered "the dead," or "the shades" in various passages (Job 26:5 margin; Psalm 88:10 margin; Proverbs 2:18 margin; Proverbs 9:18 margin; Proverbs 21:16 margin; Isaiah 14:9 margin; Isaiah 26:14, 19 margin). In these instances the word is derived from rapheh, "weak," "powerless," "a shadow" or "shade."

Source: International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (on biblos.com)

Rephaim were giants. Hebrew word 7496. The dead, as in Job 26:5 were the Hebrew word 7497.

There was a distinction between the two. The Rephaim were not shadows of the dead.

We occasionally use the same word for different meanings today. For example.

The chair of the board was Mr. White.
Mr. White sat in a comfortable chair during the meeting.

Same word, different meanings.

Rephaim were not shadows of the dead.

 

[Timothew]

Rephaim were giants. Hebrew word 7496. The dead, as in Job 26:5 were the Hebrew word 7497.

There was a distinction between the two. The Rephaim were not shadows of the dead.

We occasionally use the same word for different meanings today. For example.

The chair of the board was Mr. White.
Mr. White sat in a comfortable chair during the meeting.

Same word, different meanings.

Rephaim were not shadows of the dead.

OK, Hebrew is not my language. I just reported what the encyclopedia said in an effort to be helpful.

 

[Studious One]

OK, Hebrew is not my language. I just reported what the encyclopedia said in an effort to be helpful.

Understood.

 

[Mikecpking]

I see you haven't a clue as to what happens to a person and what happens to his or her soul at death.

I have posted 3 scriptures to prove to you the 'nephesh' dies at physical death, I give them to you once more

Numbers 23:10
http://www.google.co.uk/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENUK281&q=nephesh+dies+num+23%3A10&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

Judges 16:30
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul_in_the_Bible
Ezekiel 18:4

For the best definition of the biblical soul on the web, you need to read through 18 pages to see how this word 'nephesh' is used with commentary from theologians and then you will get a better understanding of the meaning of soul and what happens to 'it' at death:

http://www.drhoff.com/Writings/writings.htm

You say they become a Rephaim. I suggest you do some homework. A Rephaim is a giant.

I would suggest you do a theology degree or course, especially in Hebrew biiblical anthropology. 'Rephaim' were giants, but the word 'Rephaim' were also what dead people are as defined as and what they become in Sheol.
"
The same Hebrew word is rendered "the dead," or "the shades" in various passages (Job 26:5 margin; Psalm 88:10 margin; Proverbs 2:18 margin; Proverbs 9:18 margin; Proverbs 21:16 margin; Isaiah 14:9 margin; Isaiah 26:14, 19 margin). In these instances the word is derived from rapheh, "weak," "powerless," "a shadow" or "shade.""

from Bible Encyclopedia: Rephaim

I have highlighted in red this definition.

We have proof that one does not become a giant when one die due to the fact that they are the same size in their casket as they were just prior to their deaths. Also, bodies have been exhumed by forensic investigators that were no larger than what they were when they were planted in the ground 30 and 40 years prior.

It is quite obvious you are just making things up in order to make your doctrine look more feasible, but it ain't working.

hmmm, I think we have just covered that one so please make a study of OT theology before jumping in with these kind of unhelpful remarks.

The point is that the Hebrews did not believe they were 'souls' in sheol, rather they were 'rephaim (the dead, the weak). They believed that the word 'nephesh' where we have translated it as soul in various places meant 'life' as in the physical living creature and this 'life' was transported by blood. And when the person or creature died, this 'life' departed, ceased to be, because it (they) was dead.

 

[DCHSKNIGHT]

I ahve an idea about this theory... i don't know if it has already been put out there... did not care to rummage through all the posts...

Hell has to be eternal, because God is eternal....

Thoughts/discuss

 

[Mikecpking]

I ahve an idea about this theory... i don't know if it has already been put out there... did not care to rummage through all the posts...

Hell has to be eternal, because God is eternal....

Thoughts/discuss

Cannot be, because hell (hades) itself is thrown into the lake of fire...To me, sheol (hades) is simply the place where all the dead go and await resurrection, not a place of torment, because they are not aware

Psalm 146:4
Psalm 115
Job 14: 10 onwards.

 

[Mikecpking]

Understood.

Here is an excerpt from Dr Hoff on page 9 which covers sheol, repahim and Nephesh (N) in his essay:

http://www.drhoff.com/Writings/writings9.htm

"The ideas of the grave and of sheol cannot be separated. Every one who dies goes to sheol, just as he, if everything happens in the normal way, is put into the grave. When the earth swallowed up Dathan and Abiram with all that belonged to them, they went straight down into sheol (Num. 16:29ff.), and Jacob now speaks of going into the grave (Gen * 47:30), now of going into sheol (Gen. 37:35). The dead are at the same time in the grave and in sheol, not in two different places." (Pedersen, p. 461) However, it was noteably those who suffered a shameful death, the slain or the wicked enemies of the godly, that were referred to as actually dwelling in sheol. Thus, Pedersen was perhaps not completely accurate when he wrote that all who died went to sheol. "The wicked shall depart to sheol, all the nations that forget God." (Ps. 9:17; see also Ps. 55:15; Prov. 5:6, 7:27, 9:18) Wicked scoffers could even make a covenant with death and sheol. (see Is. 28:15,18) To die a natural death full of years had its honour and satisfaction. One was "gathered to his people" (Gen. 25:8, 35:29, 49:33; Jud. 2:10) or "sleeps with his fathers" (I Kings 2:10, 11:43) in the family grave. Even in death, the godly participate in the family line. Pedersen was correct in holding the opinion that the grave and sheol cannot be viewed as separate; however, it is important to note a difference between his two examples regarding Jacob. In Gen. 37:35 Jacob refuses comfort after being told Joseph his son was killed, but in Gen. 47:30 Jacob's house is in order and he is therefore now ready to die. The word sheol is used, appropriately, only in the first example.
OT Biblical scholars agree that the ancient Hebrews believed N could die. N was subject to death and therefore was a perishable existence. Ruah-breath left flesh, and N thereby ceased to exist since the vitality of N-blood was no longer sustained. There was no idea of an immaterial entity that left the body at death. It was ruah as breath viewed through the synthetic mind of the Hebrews which concretely, visably left. Human wind departed, not an invisible non-physical entity of more value than a body from which it travelled. Breath and flesh returned to their former conditions and the person took on a new existence, a new status, as one of the rephaim. Pedersen tried to re-define soul when he wrote, "When death occurs, then it is the soul that is deprived of life. Death cannot strike the body or any other part of the soul without striking the entirety of the soul...There can be no doubt that it is the soul which dies, and all theories attempting to deny this fact are false." (p. 179)
Samson pleaded, "Let me [N] die with the Philistines." (Jud. 16:30) Balaam said, "Let me [N] die the death of the righteous." (Num. 23:10) According to John Robinson, "There is no suggestion that...the soul (N) is immortal, while the flesh (basar) is mortal. The soul does not survive man--it simply goes out, draining away with the blood." (p. 14)
Murtonen in Living Soul stated, "N is able to die, but the result is not a dead N but the N of a dead." (p. 29) Murtonen noted that a dead N was a contradiction in terms, and asserted that the corpse must have had some form of life or action since N always denoted these properties. Certainly, once N was dead, 'it' ceased existing. Nonetheless, it must be remembered that this 'it' was not an entity removed from the person. It was a body part caught up in the earthly status of the person. With no blood-vitality, the person ceased to exist as N., "Apparently the dying was conceived as a more or less long process during which man was still called N on account of the 'life' or 'action' which took place in the corpse." (Murtonen, p. 29-30)

This last note could be the cause of confusion in moderbn Christianity with the idea of souls going to hell where the OT meaning is the corpse (still a nephesh) is simply going to the grave (sheol).

 

[Studious One]

I ahve an idea about this theory... i don't know if it has already been put out there... did not care to rummage through all the posts...

Hell has to be eternal, because God is eternal....

Thoughts/discuss

Hell (Sheol/Hades) speak of the realm of the dead prior to judgment.

Scripture reveals to us that hell (Sheol/Hades) will one day be thrown into Hell (geenna/lake of fire)

Geenna/Lake of fire is never ending. It was prepared for the devil and his angels. It was never meant for man. But man, in his rejection of Jesus Christ, chooses to go to geenna/lake of fire.

And his choice will result in the same never ending suffering that the devil and his angels will experience.

There will be no escape from the torments of hell... despite what others may say.
Hell (geenna/lake of fire) is the abode of the dead after the judgment.

 

[Aimiel]

Amen!

 

[Mikecpking]

Here is the 'short version' of the meaning of 'soul' in the bible:

[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']THE PICTURE - WINDOWS Nephesh - Psyche - Soul[/FONT]
The important passage in Genesis 2:7 sets the scene for this 'window - word' into the nature of personhood. An individual becomes a 'nephesh' from the infusion of divine breath into moulded dust. In physical terms 'nephesh' means, 'neck', 'throat', 'gullet' and came to mean 'life', that 'vital motion' which distinguishes a living being from a corpse.

'Nephesh' has such a variety of senses that we must make a careful definition in each particular case. Meanings overlap and are used side by side. It is easy to end up with contradictory statements about 'nephesh'. Here are some of the central statements about 'nephesh':-
• it is that vital life which is shared by both humans and animals [Gen 2:19].
• it is life that is bound up with the body, blood is the vehicle of nephesh [Dt 12:23], at death it dies [Nu 23:10] draining away with the blood, with resuscitation it 'returns'; not that it has gone anywhere.
• it can denote 'the living individual themselves' [Gen 14:21], and can replace the personal pronoun to create special emphasis [Ps 42:6], God uses it of himself [Am 6:8].
• it is strongly instinctive [animal] activity; desire, vital urge, feeling, emotion, mood [Dt 14:26].
• it is feelings and emotions of a spiritual kind; grief, pain, joy, peace, love [Ezk 27:31]; its highest expression is longing for God [Ps 25:1].
The New Testament uses the Greek 'psyche' with the sense of the Hebrew 'nephesh'. Paul's writings are significant for how rarely he uses it. The Synoptics are interesting in that one third of their usage refers to life beyond death [Mt 10:28,39; 16:25-26; Mk 8:35-37; Lk 9:24; 21:19], due to the overlap of present and future in the Kingdom of God; revolutionary in terms of its Hebrew roots.
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']This 'nephesh' is primarily the life of the whole person in terms of strongly instinctive [animal] [/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']activity. It reflects the glory and richness of God's gift of life to him though susceptible to [/FONT][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']death. It is not an independent substance which, as many have argued, survives death.[/FONT]