Scientism

[AV1611VET]

Actually, quite a lot. Same with the diety of Thor. You know, because a day was called after Thor, Thor must be a diety.

-- What???

Thor is a fallen angel.

 

[KWCrazy]

If Allah personally handed that rock to me, I would start believing in Allah.

Just as a matter of inquiry, how it it that you indicate you would not believe in God, you would believe in Allah, and your avatar says Christian? Surely you believe in God, not Allah. You DO acknowledge that Jesus is the son of God, right? That He is the redeemer who takes away the sins of man?

 

[Derek Meyer]

Are you making a claim that those who believe in the Bible are uneducated?

Nope. By far the most Christians accept an old earth. The leader of the largest Christian church in the world, the Pope, believes in the Bible and accepts an old earth. So do most Christians in the world and a lot of them are highly educated.

YEC's tend to be uneducated.

 

[Michael]

Just as a matter of inquiry, how it it that you indicate you would not believe in God, you would believe in Allah, and your avatar says Christian? Surely you believe in God, not Allah. You DO acknowledge that Jesus is the son of God, right? That He is the redeemer who takes away the sins of man?

Ultimately the term monotheism implies that there are many religions, but there is only one God. There are of course many human names for God in many different languages and cultures. Allah is not a "different God" however. It's just a name for our one common God, from one particular language.

 

[AV1611VET]

Nope. By far the most Christians accept an old earth. The leader of the largest Christian church in the world, the Pope, believes in the Bible and accepts an old earth. So do most Christians in the world and a lot of them are highly educated.

YEC's tend to be uneducated.

How many of these * cough * educated old earth believers can support their beliefs using only the Bible, like YECs can?

Usually they'll either reach for a science book or Wrong's Concordance or both to support their beliefs.

And if you ask them about a particular passage of Scripture, they have to excuse themselves a minute while they ask their wives where a Bible is.

 

[KWCrazy]

Nope. By far the most Christians accept an old earth.

Jesus did not.
Jesus said, "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”
Jesus quoted Genesis 1 "But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."
Jesus said in Mark 13:9 "For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be."

Certainly there are Christians who reject this teaching, but that doesn't make them stronger for the portions they reject. In 15 years, no evolution believing Christian has even been able to show me how the Bible supports what they believe. Not one. Maybe you can.

 

[Michael]

FYI, I think that atheists tend to migrate toward scientism as their surrogate source of "truthiness", however in my experience few of them actually understand the term "evidence" as it is applied in "science". In "science" there is no pure empirical standard of 'evidence'. Often the "cause" is not empirically demonstrated, or even possible to empirically demonstrate in a lab in controlled experimentation.

Atheists tend to apply two different standards of evidence in their application of "scientism", one for 'science', and a purely empirical standard of evidence as it relates to the single topic of "God".

 

[AV1611VET]

Ultimately the term monotheism implies that there are many religions, but there is only one God. There are of course many human names for God in many different languages and cultures. Allah is not a "different God" however. It's just a name for our one common God, from one particular language.

Either that, or Allah is the primary deity of the Quraysh tribe, where Mohammad came from; represented by a crescent moon.

 

[KWCrazy]

How many of these * cough * educated old earth believers can support their beliefs using only the Bible, like YECs can?

Not a single one so far.

 

[AV1611VET]

Not a single one so far.

I don't see how they can.

Even I have to use science for my embedded age claims.

Wrong's Concordance is out of the question though.

I once had a Zodhiates "King James" Bible.

I literally took a knife to it.

 

[KWCrazy]

I don't see how they can.
Even I have to use science for my embedded age claims.
Wrong's Concordance is out of the question though.

The problem is not science itself, but elevating science above the word of God.
Science cannot account for the origination of anything, only cause and effect relationships as observed and dated based on the premise that the observations are constant.

 

[AV1611VET]

The problem is not science itself, but elevating science above the word of God.
Science cannot account for the origination of anything, only cause and effect relationships as observed and dated based on the premise that the observations are constant.

Well-stated!

 

[Michael]

The problem is not science itself, but elevating science above the word of God.

I think most folks simply prefer to elevate science above their own *personal interpretation* of the Bible, not the "word of God". According to John, the living "Word of God" is Christ. IMO the Bible should not be worshiped as a false idol, and a "reality check" with respect to one's personal interpretation of various passages is warranted and useful.

Science cannot account for the origination of anything, only cause and effect relationships as observed and dated based on the premise that the observations are constant.

Agreed.

 

[Chris B]

And you can't tell which one is supreme?

You seriously can't tell me which "religion" is BMOC here on earth?

Isn't a worldwide usage of BC/AD a strong enough hint?

No, not really. It tells me what the religion was of the biggest empire at the time, which stomped on other calendars at least as much by economic and military power rather than sheer superiority of its religion.
(The tactical good move of Christianizing the Pagan midwinter festival to make conversion less problematic has turned out to be a strategic error, problematic to this day)

Mind you, we still keep Sumerian/Babylonian time.

 

[durangodawood]

Jesus did not....

Of course not!

Jesus didnt have access to the scientific evidence and reasoning that we do. He probably thought the myths were literal.

 

[Michael]

Of course not!

Jesus didnt have access to the scientific evidence and reasoning that we do. He probably thought the myths were literal.

I don't think it's reasonable to assume that humans of "old" were somehow less educated or smart compared to modern humans. Sure, Jesus didn't own cellphone, but I'm sure he "interpreted" the various OT passages like everyone else still does to this day, namely *subjectively* based upon his own beliefs.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Yes, exactly like those guys who actually do the exploration and mining.

All the exploration and mining companies from all over the world I've ever heard of use old earth models. And they spend billions. As they say, the proof is in the pudding. All those mining companies spend millions in exploration and all that stuff and mining and all that stuff.

Yet, there's not even one YEC religious exploration or mining company even trying to put their money where their mouths are.

So, yes, there's a huge difference between speaking in churches and actually building shafts. Mining companies do it. YEC's talk in fundamentalist churches or mosques.

There is a lot of money that has bone into finding off shore oil. The research paid for by the oil companies has expanded our information considerably. We know about the end of the last ice age and how much the ocean level went up because of that research. Right now we know that Scientific research indicates sea levels worldwide have been rising at a rate of 0.14 inches (3.5 millimeters) per year since the early 1990s.

 

[joshua 1 9]

I don't think it's reasonable to assume that humans of "old" were somehow less educated or smart compared to modern humans.

There is development that has to take place before the age of 3. Second generation Americans seem to do a lot better then first generation.

 

[AV1611VET]

Sure, Jesus didn't own cellphone, but I'm sure he "interpreted" the various OT passages like everyone else still does to this day, namely *subjectively* based upon his own beliefs.

John 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

 

[TLK Valentine]

How many of these * cough * educated old earth believers can support their beliefs using only the Bible, like YECs can?

Suppose the answer is none... so what?