Scientifically Minded Christians

[asiyreh]

You know I'm just reading through this thread and realising that Christianity has changed a lot in the past ten years. It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. I'm very proud of you all. I wish to just respond to one thing I've read. There was a statement made "The universe shouts "I am God, I am here"

You know the one thing that separates the bible from every other "holy book" in the world.

רֵאשִׁית אֱלֹהִים בָּרָא אֵת שָׁמַיִם אֵת אֶרֶץ

You know it better as Genesis 1:1

When you fully appreciate that statement it's scary.

Just to give you a little sample though, it puts God outside of everything and above everything and before everything and he literally creates the universe from nothingness.

God is not the universe, the universe may show incredible evidence for a designer and if that's what you meant you have my humble apologies. But I just saw the need to address the issue.

That view I critiqued has a following in theology and is usually described as Pantheism. A belief that the universe is literally God. But it is not a Christian belief. Both Peter and Paul and more importantly Christ make this abundantly clear.
Peter and Paul critique this view with barely disguised disgust in some cases and link it to many detestable spiritual wickedness.

So just thought it was definitely worth a mention. Apologies. But very good overall guys. We've come a long way, I see this as a very positive step towards bringing those with a scientific understanding closer to the Christ we know and love.

Though at times I must admit my choices place me far from him. I wish I could be a better follower for Jesus. But good. I think if we were all better ambassadors for the bible more people would see the Word of God and The Works of God are in perfect harmony.

Little interesting fact just to end on. Did you know that Augustine one of the earliest and best known church fathers who wrote way way way before the onset of modern science wasn't a 6 literal days Young Earther...

 

[MCA]

I have not and will not ever lead my friends and family away from faith, my thoughts are only expressed on this forum. Just an fyi for all. I'm not a god bashing atheist in real life. I have actually visited all the sites mentioned above except for one in which I will look at. I have a copy of the turek book I don't have enough faith to be an atheist. It made me really good points but it didn't do anything for me. Atheism really is a strange thing, a disease more like it. It feels almost like a casting out of christianity. Like I couldn't get back even if I wanted. For instance today, like I do everyday, was searching for answers about the flood. Comes to show the arks been discovered. Being a skeptic I immediately start to reason on how this could not be noahs ark. Its like i couldn't believe if I tried. And yes I completely, entirely, 100 perceng support the idea that my christian colleagues did a horrible job with their conservative literal 6 day and 6 thousand year creation model. I remember se weren't allowed to read the bible jnless it was king james, and as a child I couldn't understand it so I just wouldn't read it. I really don't know what else to say or do. We have the eucharist miracles, the ed warren video of a girl being pushed by a spirit on youtube, ark on a mountain, the ex nihilo argument of the universe, dna complexities, afterlife experiences, heaven experiences, prophetic people, the bible with claims of dozens of supernatural events, bible archaelogy proofs, the disciples claimed and died for standing by their belief jesus rose from the dead, man's intelligence, passions, music. These are just a few reasons to believe and I can't help it, I really can't. I know it sounds absurd, crazy, ridiculous, but I cant bring myself to believe. The same way an atheist comes to know god and Jesus, I was the Christian who came to believe he was false. You wouldn't get very far trying to convince ravi zacharias, william craig, gary habermas, frank turek, norman geisler, or any of the other apologists that there is no god. Jesus says seek me and you will find me, but Paul says if you lose your faith you can never get it back. I have been seeking daily since feb 4th and it has been a nightmare. Im worse off then i was when i started, im just even more open minded now. I've thought of suicide in the first couple months it got so bad. Its all balled up because I can't tell myfamily anything I don't want them to question their faith. Thanks for the help I really do appreciate it but God needs to help. I will look at the site above and keep i guess

 

[joeboonda]

Paul says if you lose your faith you can never get it back.

If you get that idea from this, For it is impossible...if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance...you needn't fear. This was written to Jews who went back to the Law. They would not change their mind--repentance, it does not say they could not be renewed to salvation, but that they could not be renewed to repentance which is simply to change one's mind. Salvation is a free gift. One can do nothing to earn it and one can do nothing to lose it no matter how greatly their faith wavers due to oppositions of science falsely so called. Just thought I'd mention that, and don't quit researching!

 

[Crandaddy]

MCA,

Have you checked out the links I provided? If you haven't, please do. Here's the long and the short of it:

Evolution CANNOT produce rational minds--i.e. minds that use abstract concepts to think logically and mathematically. Not even given infinite time could naturalistic processes such as evolution produce a single mind that thinks logically. It is impossible in principle. If your professor tells you otherwise, then he's WRONG, and I can put paid to that!

If you'd feel more comfortable discussing this in private, feel free to PM me, or we could discuss it here if you'd like. Ball's in your court...

Just please, at least take a look at those articles I linked...

 

[Max Shade]

I woke up this morning with so much anger I'm so so so upset that my faith was stripped from me most people have not gone in depth of evolution as I have my professor was like the Billy Graham of evolution.

So you don't have anything to respond to posts #42 & #45 . .. . (shrugs & thinks "have fun at Sunday school")

 

[hedrick]

Some of you may have heard my story but in a nutshell I lost my faith in college mostly due to a biology course I took. I have developed a very scientific/naturalistic perspective of the universe and our origins. As a former Christian, I am conflicted with being this way. To the point that I cannot listen/read/converse with scientific teachings because, well, it makes sense to me. And as I have stated in a couple other threads, I don't want to be an atheist. I've read lots of apologetic material, the Bible, a few priests/pastors, and this way of mind I have remains. I am wanting to know of any scientifically minded Christians out there who have found God. How did you balance the two. In other words, how does it work out for you? What are your thoughts? How do you cope?

My situation is the same as lesliedellow. I grew up with a form of Christianity that accepts science and critical scholarship. I never saw any problem with biology or other science, because I always treated Genesis as an ancient document that showed us what Israel though about its origins and its relationship to God. I've never understood the attraction of inerrancy or the rest of conservative Christianity. It seems to turn people against themselves, making them have to pass everything they hear through a Christian filter, that rejects anything that might challenge their current understanding. That's not a way I could live.

Don't blame your biology teacher. Blame your church. They failed to learn the lesson of the Reformation, that our traditional understanding of Christianity should always be open to challenge based on evidence.

 

[parsley]

My situation is the same as lesliedellow. I grew up with a form of Christianity that accepts science and critical scholarship. I never saw any problem with biology or other science, because I always treated Genesis as an ancient document that showed us what Israel though about its origins and its relationship to God.

Here too. The contrast was never discussed.
And the Bible does not teach within itself that we need to stand against evolution, or related topics. We didn't spend much time in Genesis.

Churches have changed, and schools have too.

I don't even remember if textbooks came up with a solid earth age estimate by then. We studied Darwin as a theory, and everyone laughed at the possibility (with no evangelicals in class), and it got us thinking.

Tests were worded, "Darwin proposed... A B C D" and no one made claims to who was right. It was important to consider, and we were the generation who would take research further. We learned what each scientist contributed to the current of thought. Testing matched up the theorists with their theories.

A 10th grade social studies teacher told us of reading he'd done on global cooling, and we were fascinated meditating on the possibility of the earth changing. There were no tests on it. It was a hypothesis.

My children, on the other hand, had test questions on the Law of Evolution (which does not exist), the unquestionable inevitability of global warming, the personalities and intents of the founding fathers.
Their church peers presented dogmatic opposition, which annoyed them. Classroom debates pitted and divided, and did not improve their critical thinking skills.

One spoke up and said they would not answer a test question that showed a theory as a fact, and the teacher gave only the option to take a zero for that question. The teacher explained it as standards-based learning. But within the standards, there is supposed to be critical thinking.

Ironically, schools teach that they will present thought-provoking content, but then grade according to rote learning.

The field of science is recognized as a continual testing and refining of ideas -- constant scrutiny and analysis with a willingness to accept revisions. That is taught too, but not necessarily practiced.

 

[asiyreh]

Although I respect Henrick No need to throw out Genesis. As I said Augustine wasn't a YEC. Why?

Find out...

However I don't think your problem is necessarily an intellectual one. I think what you need to do is take yourself out of your little security blanket and become reliant on God for your basic needs. You need an active and purposeful prayer life.

A mission or something might be good.

 

[LoricaLady]

How about some former evolutonists who used to teach evolution as fact? There are many. 2 examples Dr. Gary Parker, author of Creation Facts of Life. Dr. Dean Kenyon whose books on "abiogenesis" (what a joke - the primal pond flies in the face of science, it was just an armchair theory presented as scientific fact though the LAW of Biogenesis shows life always comes from life period).

Dr. Parker's book had me practically rotfl about evolution before I was finished with it, and I had swallowed it hook line and sinker. Evolution is based on theories presented as fact and is piled on a bunch of logical fallacies - especially Correlation Does Not Imply Causation & Fallacy of the Single Cause, but many others. It is sophistry at it's worst.

Check out Don Patton's Fossils, Thomas Kincaide's Thermodynamic Evidence For Creation & much more on Youtube and all over the net.

Did you know they found soft tissue and blood cells in a T Rex a year or so ago. This was found by an evolutionist. You can see some of the very limited coverage that leaked out from the politically correct press, also on YT. In fact last year they found similar things in triceratops horns. In fact such things have been found since early last century. But they tend to be ignored and fanciful stories, not backed up by science since evolution always goes contrary to science if you know all the facts, are used to spin the real data away.

If you have any believe in Messiah at all, do remember that HE believed in Adam and
Eve, the Flood, Soddom & Gomorrah etc. He spoke of them as literal, historic fact. Also, you can never reconcile the Bible with evolution because for just one reason it says that the sun was created after the plants.

You don't have to gve up science. You have to see what the real science is. The real science actually confirms the Bible. The self protective, politcally correct NeoDarwinian world you live in will do all it can to tear down any faith you have in the Word of the Almighty. But data is data. Truth is truth. The real truth, the real data, confirms the Bible and makes a sad, bad joke of evolution.

Dig deeper. Look outside the mainstream "scientific" box and find true science.

I debate people all the time on Youtube re evolution. Most of them toss out insults and name calling and obscenities to cover the fact that they really don't understand te issues, just are accepting on "faith" that evolution, which has been drilled into them since grade school, must be true. If you use the Socratic Method to show them they really can't articulate any hard Qs for data re evolution, they just get into troll talk. I put such on ignore, but trust you could be more civil.

If you have Qs and want to debate the issue I am usually working on a vid under this same handle, LoricaLady, usually under a Ken Miller vid, right now under Ken Miller Destroys Creationist Argument. There is a rare person debating me, someone who is polite, no troll talk. After I get finished (if you don't mind) debunking a vid he led me to by a Nobel Laureate that supposedly says something scientific, if you want to jump in, feel free.

 

[Billy Bayou]

When reading the posts in this thread and others I am saddened. Many of posters claim to be christian however they believe in evolution, old earth etc...

Am I getting that old? Have we strayed so far from the solid foundations of the Bible?
Do people have to accept all these "worldly" explanations of the supernatural occurrences in history that they claim that they are all by chance? Does the God of the Christianity of today lack the power to create the whole universe and the authority to control and govern all truth?

People, the Bible states, in Genesis "and there was evening, and there was morning, the first day". Then the same denotes "the second day".

Now, being an intelligent being, would this not denote a day. It does not say "there was evening and there was morning and there was a million or so years, the first day"
This is very distinct, the earth was created in 6 days.

And, to Christian-Catholic, apology accepted, I never intended to claim "God is the universe". I totally believe God created it and is in total control of it but the universe is not God and He is not the universe.

 

[Alvis]

I don't know how a person with an IQ over 85 could doubt the age of the universe as being billions of years old.

 

[theophilus40]

Well, if evolution cannot be reconciled with the Christian conception of God, how is it that 95% of Christians outside of America manage to do just that?

When I was first saved I believed the Bible and I also believed that evolution was true. The reason for that was lack of knowledge about both of these subjects.

I had always been taught that scientists had proved that evolution was true and I wasn't aware of the fact that there was scientific evidence against it. When I learned that is wasn't supported by evidence I rejected it.

When I learned that death entered the world as a result of Adam's sin I realized that this couldn't be reconciled with the belief that life developed by a process of evolution because that would have meant there was death in the world before he sinned.

Surveys have shown that most people know very little about the Bible. Evolution is so widely taught and believed that most people simply take for granted that it is true and never even consider the possibility that it might be wrong. Those two facts explain why there are so many people who believe that both of them are true.

 

[hedrick]

My children, on the other hand, had test questions on the Law of Evolution (which does not exist), the unquestionable inevitability of global warming, the personalities and intents of the founding fathers.
Their church peers presented dogmatic opposition, which annoyed them. Classroom debates pitted and divided, and did not improve their critical thinking skills.

Unfortunately there are ill-conceived positions on both sides. I agree that there is no "law of evolution."

The nature of this disagreement has led people on both sides to abuse the language. My original background was science. I would prefer to speak of models, and to talk about how well-supported the models are. Evolution is well supported. The big bang is supported beyond reasonable doubt. But "law?" That term is used by scientists to describe specific formulas or maybe models. Like "Boyle's law." Evolution isn't a law, it's an overarching principle. That's why it's called a theory. (In science the term theory doesn't mean something that's only a guess. It refers to a whole area that encompasses a number of specific models.)

But there's an amazing amount of variation in teaching. A lot of schools today are soft-pedaling evolution. I've had to present a summary in Sunday School at times, because the kids weren't getting clear presentations in school.

Right. To teach critical thinking you need to let the students do, or at least follow someone else's previous work, analysis of evidence. Evolution is too large an area. There's too much evidence, and too many specious arguments that require significant expertise to explode. You'd be better off looking at one specific area where you can give evidence and say "given this evidence, what questions would you ask, what further evidence would you collect, and how would you go about coming to conclusions?" You really can't do that for evolution as a whole.

But arguments over evolution aren't likely to help MCA. He's already at the point where he can't accept conservative Christianity. Some people do manage to go from that point back to accepting it, but it doesn't sound like this is likely for MCA. I'm going to try another response to him.

 

[hedrick]

I have not and will not ever lead my friends and family away from faith, my thoughts are only expressed on this forum. Just an fyi for all. I'm not a god bashing atheist in real life. I have actually visited all the sites mentioned above except for one in which I will look at. I have a copy of the turek book I don't have enough faith to be an atheist. It made me really good points but it didn't do anything for me. Atheism really is a strange thing, a disease more like it. It feels almost like a casting out of christianity. Like I couldn't get back even if I wanted. For instance today, like I do everyday, was searching for answers about the flood. Comes to show the arks been discovered. Being a skeptic I immediately start to reason on how this could not be noahs ark. Its like i couldn't believe if I tried. And yes I completely, entirely, 100 perceng support the idea that my christian colleagues did a horrible job with their conservative literal 6 day and 6 thousand year creation model. I remember se weren't allowed to read the bible jnless it was king james, and as a child I couldn't understand it so I just wouldn't read it. I really don't know what else to say or do. We have the eucharist miracles, the ed warren video of a girl being pushed by a spirit on youtube, ark on a mountain, the ex nihilo argument of the universe, dna complexities, afterlife experiences, heaven experiences, prophetic people, the bible with claims of dozens of supernatural events, bible archaelogy proofs, the disciples claimed and died for standing by their belief jesus rose from the dead, man's intelligence, passions, music. These are just a few reasons to believe and I can't help it, I really can't. I know it sounds absurd, crazy, ridiculous, but I cant bring myself to believe. The same way an atheist comes to know god and Jesus, I was the Christian who came to believe he was false. You wouldn't get very far trying to convince ravi zacharias, william craig, gary habermas, frank turek, norman geisler, or any of the other apologists that there is no god. Jesus says seek me and you will find me, but Paul says if you lose your faith you can never get it back. I have been seeking daily since feb 4th and it has been a nightmare. Im worse off then i was when i started, im just even more open minded now. I've thought of suicide in the first couple months it got so bad. Its all balled up because I can't tell myfamily anything I don't want them to question their faith. Thanks for the help I really do appreciate it but God needs to help. I will look at the site above and keep i guess

I think I know where you're coming from. I think conservative Christianity is simply in a different world than I'm in. I don't see any way you could convince me that all that stuff makes any sense at all.

People have stood where you are and gone back to a conservative viewpoint. But it doesn't sound like that's likely for you.

I simply don't know whether you're going to be able to find another type of Christianity of not. The apologists you've been reading are all conservative. Some of them are better than others. Among that group I find Tim Keller the most honest. But everything I've read from any of them has holes in it that make it unconvincing, at least to me.

And most of the stuff you're pointing to *ought* to be unconvincing. The 200th supposed finding of Noah's ark, Biblical archaeology that ignores what mainstream archaeologists know about the ancient Near East, weird personal experiences. I just don't think you're likely to find faith there.

Where will you find it? I don't know, but my guess is that it would be a lot more likely if you hung around mature Christians whose thought patterns and attitude towards science and critical thought you share. Find a good mainline church, with active programs, and join them for some of their projects. (I'd suggest PCUSA, ELCA, or Episcopal, but churches in all of those denominations vary.) To find God, go where God is. According to the Bible, that's with people who need help the most.

Some people have religious experience which they find convincing. But the surveys I've seen suggest it's about half of Christians, and those often have only a couple of experiences in a lifetime.

For me, Christianity makes more sense of what I've called the moral and personal structure of the universe. That is, I see Christianity as an overarching way of understanding, rather like science, though largely dealing with different parts of the world than science. I think in the long run people accept it because it provides a more convincing way of looking at the world, and that the Church provides a better foundation for life than living outside it. But these are things that will probably only make sense with experience.

Thus my suggestion to find a group of Christians with whom you're compatible. You're not the only person to have gone through this. However I have to admit that most people in the mainline churches probably grew up in them, and so never really were involved in all the places where you have been trying to find faith. The main people in my local church from other traditions are former Catholics. They're with us largely because they're reacting to legalism, particularly in gender and sexual issues, rather the kinds of basic problems you have believing in any of it.

 

[Alvis]

I think I know where you're coming from. I think conservative Christianity is simply in a different world than I'm in. I don't see any way you could convince me that all that stuff makes any sense at all.

People have stood where you are and gone back to a conservative viewpoint. But it doesn't sound like that's likely for you.

I simply don't know whether you're going to be able to find another type of Christianity of not. The apologists you've been reading are all conservative. Some of them are better than others. Among that group I find Tim Keller the most honest. But everything I've read from any of them has holes in it that make it unconvincing, at least to me.

And most of the stuff you're pointing to *ought* to be unconvincing. The 200th supposed finding of Noah's ark, Biblical archaeology that ignores what mainstream archaeologists know about the ancient Near East, weird personal experiences. I just don't think you're likely to find faith there.

Where will you find it? I don't know, but my guess is that it would be a lot more likely if you hung around mature Christians whose thought patterns and attitude towards science and critical thought you share. Find a good mainline church, with active programs, and join them for some of their projects. (I'd suggest PCUSA, ELCA, or Episcopal, but churches in all of those denominations vary.) To find God, go where God is. According to the Bible, that's with people who need help the most.

Some people have religious experience which they find convincing. But the surveys I've seen suggest it's about half of Christians, and those often have only a couple of experiences in a lifetime.

For me, Christianity makes more sense of what I've called the moral and personal structure of the universe. That is, I see Christianity as an overarching way of understanding, rather like science, though largely dealing with different parts of the world than science. I think in the long run people accept it because it provides a more convincing way of looking at the world, and that the Church provides a better foundation for life than living outside it. But these are things that will probably only make sense with experience.

Thus my suggestion to find a group of Christians with whom you're compatible. You're not the only person to have gone through this. However I have to admit that most people in the mainline churches probably grew up in them, and so never really were involved in all the places where you have been trying to find faith. The main people in my local church from other traditions are former Catholics. They're with us largely because they're reacting to legalism, particularly in gender and sexual issues, rather the kinds of basic problems you have believing in any of it.

This is why I always like reading hedrick's responses. They make so much sense!

 

[asiyreh]

When reading the posts in this thread and others I am saddened. Many of posters claim to be christian however they believe in evolution, old earth etc...

Am I getting that old? Have we strayed so far from the solid foundations of the Bible?
Do people have to accept all these "worldly" explanations of the supernatural occurrences in history that they claim that they are all by chance? Does the God of the Christianity of today lack the power to create the whole universe and the authority to control and govern all truth?

People, the Bible states, in Genesis "and there was evening, and there was morning, the first day". Then the same denotes "the second day".

Now, being an intelligent being, would this not denote a day. It does not say "there was evening and there was morning and there was a million or so years, the first day"
This is very distinct, the earth was created in 6 days.

And, to Christian-Catholic, apology accepted, I never intended to claim "God is the universe". I totally believe God created it and is in total control of it but the universe is not God and He is not the universe.

Understand something as a Christian, we believe in the inspired word of the original manuscript written by Moses. That's what was God breathed. Not the book you hold in your hand. The Biblical word for day is Yom. It has about 4 meaning and one is an limited but finite period of time. This was the only word available to Moses. Yes there's a more specific one in modern Hebrew but not in ancient Hebrew.

The Day of the Lord is not your day it's HIS Day. We can look back in time quite literally in Astronomy and see galaxies forming. Literally. We can set the telescope to 2 billion years then set it to 4 billion years looking at the same region in space and literally see the galaxies forming over that period of time. I am not a believer in neo Darwinian biological evolution.

Again I'm going to ask this question because it's critically important - Augustine was not a YEC why? Find out why...

 

[Billy Bayou]

I don't know how a person with an IQ over 85 could doubt the age of the universe as being billions of years old.

How many people with an IQ over 85 do you know? There is more than just a few respected scientists that adopt this view. Many that are head and shoulders above us laymen in terms of knowledge of the sciences.

 

[Billy Bayou]

Understand something as a Christian, we believe in the inspired word of the original manuscript written by Moses. That's what was God breathed. Not the book you hold in your hand. The Biblical word for day is Yom. It has about 4 meaning and one is an limited but finite period of time. This was the only word available to Moses. Yes there's a more specific one in modern Hebrew but not in ancient Hebrew.

The Day of the Lord is not your day it's HIS Day. We can look back in time quite literally in Astronomy and see galaxies forming. Literally. We can set the telescope to 2 billion years then set it to 4 billion years looking at the same region in space and literally see the galaxies forming over that period of time. I am not a believer in neo Darwinian biological evolution.

Again I'm going to ask this question because it's critically important - Augustine was not a YEC why? Find out why...

Are you actually saying that the King James version is not to be trusted? That "In the beginning God" is an error. That " there was evening and there was morning, the first day" Is not "truth"?

 

[theophilus40]

The age of the universe involves history as well as science. Before you study the universe you need to know the answer to a historical question: was the universe created by God or did it come about entirely as a result of impersonal physical processes? Unless you answer that question correctly you will misinterpret the evidence you examine.

There is another historical question that needs to be considered: was there ever a flood which covered the entire world? This is an easier one to answer. Nations and cultures all over the world have stories and legends of such a flood. This is evidence that such a flood actually happened. Knowing this fact is important in explaining the origin of the fossils of extinct species that are found all over the world. Unfortunately many scientists reject this historical evidence and have come up with the theory that the fossils were produced over a period of millions of years. This rejection of the truth was foretold in the Bible.

Scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.”

For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished.
(2 Peter 3:3-6 ESV)
​