Science Proves Creation

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

You can't be "A" and "-A" at the same time, we must either change the definition of Universe (from all that exists, to something else) or recognize there can't be multiple of them.

It's just semantics. The Milky Way galaxy used to be the 'universe' - until what were thought to be local nebulae were found to be distant galaxies - then for a while, they were called 'island universes'. We're at the point where several different kinds of 'multiverse' (collections of causally isolated spacetimes) are predicted by current theories, so it's just a question of deciding the nomenclature.

 

[pitabread]

It's a word that has specific meaning.

Words can have more than one meaning.

 

[Ophiolite]

Words can have more than one meaning.

Especially nouns. Offhand, I can't think of a noun with only a single meaning. (Proper nouns aside.)

 

[Ken-1122]

OK, but I still don't see what your point is. However you wish to define it, the "universe" is not known by science to have had a definite beginning.

My objection has nothing to do with how or if the Universe began, it is about the hypothetical of there being more than one.

 

[Ken-1122]

It's just semantics. The Milky Way galaxy used to be the 'universe' - until what were thought to be local nebulae were found to be distant galaxies - then for a while, they were called 'island universes'. We're at the point where several different kinds of 'multiverse' (collections of causally isolated spacetimes) are predicted by current theories, so it's just a question of deciding the nomenclature.

Was the Milky Way ever defined as "all that exist"?

 

[Ken-1122]

Words can have more than one meaning.

Especially nouns. Offhand, I can't think of a noun with only a single meaning. (Proper nouns aside.)

What other definition do you guys know of, for the Universe?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Was the Milky Way ever defined as "all that exist"?

I couldn't say for sure - it's not worth getting hung up over. As Wittgenstein said, the meaning of words is in how they're used - and that changes over time.

 

[Speedwell]

My objection has nothing to do with how or if the Universe began, it is about the hypothetical of there being more than one.

Why? What harm can an hypothesis do?

 

[durangodawood]

I couldn't say for sure - it's not worth getting hung up over. As Wittgenstein said, the meaning of words is in how they're used - and that changes over time.

The beauty of this is that multiple understandings of words allow me to equivocate and generate pages of pages of unnecessary or even deliberately misleading argument.

 

[HARK!]

What other definition do you guys know of, for the Universe?

universe
noun
uni·verse | \ ˈyü-nə-ˌvərs

\
Definition of universe
1 : the whole body of things and phenomena observed or postulated : cosmos: such as
a : a systematic whole held to arise by and persist through the direct intervention of divine power
b : the world of human experience
c(1) : the entire celestial cosmos
(2) : milky way galaxy
(3) : an aggregate of stars comparable to the Milky Way galaxy
2 : a distinct field or province of thought or reality that forms a closed system or self-inclusive and independent organization
3 : population sense 4
4 : a set that contains all elements relevant to a particular discussion or problem
5 : a great number or quantity a large enough universe of stocks … to choose from— G. B. Clairmont

Definition of UNIVERSE

I suspect that definition one, was preceded by definition two; and was expanded to reflect current knowledge, after astronomers discovered matter outside of our galaxy. If astronomers (that's a BIG if) discover collections of galaxies outside of the currently observed galaxies; I would suspect that they would be consistent in their standards of definition.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

What other definition do you guys know of, for the Universe?

It varies with context - in cosmology, there's the observable universe, i.e. everything we can observe; there's the 'greater' or 'whole' universe, i.e. the full spatial extent that contains the observable universe; it can also be used to describe causally isolated regions of spacetime within the greater universe, i.e. regions too spatially remote from each other to ever interact; then there are the theoretical 'other' universes, created in the same way and by the same process as 'our' universe, i.e. the products of other big bang events in a 'metaverse', and variations on that theme. These ensembles are called multiverses, and there are - theoretically - a number of different types.

The multiple branches of the 'Many Worlds' interpretation of quantum mechanics are also sometimes called universes, although 'worlds' is the common eponymous synonym.

Like it or not, for pragmatic reasons, the meaning of 'universe' as 'all that exists' is changing even outside the scientific community, although there is still debate about what 'existence' and 'reality' even means for spaces that we can never (as far as we know) interact with. It's all relative - I blame Einstein

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

The beauty of this is that multiple understandings of words allow me to equivocate and generate pages of pages of unnecessary or even deliberately misleading argument.

I suspect it's deliberately provocative quibbling.

 

[public hermit]

I can't think of a noun with only a single meaning. (Proper nouns aside.)

How about "monosemy"?

 

[HARK!]

I suspect it's deliberately provocative quibbling.

I disagree. The premises of a logical argument are axioms. For example, If one were to make an argument that yellow frisbee has more contrast in relation to the sky than a blue frisbee; one might start off with the premise that the sky is blue. If someone challenges this person and claims that the sky is orange; one really can't have a rational conversation with this person.

I believe that in order to have a rational conversation, that the two parties engaged in the conversation must share agreement with the definitions of the terminology.

I once played a game of Go with a man for many hours. I was about to win; when he pulled an illegal move. I called him on it. He rejected my claim. After a discussion about the history of the game in China; he said "China? I was playing by the Japanese rules."

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I disagree. The premises of a logical argument are axioms. For example, If one were to make an argument that yellow frisbee has more contrast in relation to the sky than a blue frisbee; one might start off with the premise that the sky is blue. If someone challenges this person and claims that the sky is orange; one really can't have a rational conversation with this person.

I believe that in order to have a rational conversation, that the two parties engaged in the conversation must share agreement with the definitions of the terminology.

I once played a game of Go with a man for many hours. I was about to win; when he pulled an illegal move. I called him on it. He rejected my claim. After a discussion about the history of the game in China; he said "China? I was playing by the Japanese rules."

My suspicion was grounded on earlier exchanges, not just that one - and on the persistence after explanations had been given.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Seems clear as day to me.

cau·sal·i·ty
/kôˈzalədē/
noun

• 1. the relationship between cause and effect.
• 2. the principle that everything has a cause.

What part do you have trouble with?

Nope. You got bent out of shape when I asked for clarity in your posts, so I'm not playing your game now.

 

[Ken-1122]

universe
noun
uni·verse | \ ˈyü-nə-ˌvərs

\
Definition of universe
1 : the whole body of things and phenomena observed or postulated : cosmos: such as
a : a systematic whole held to arise by and persist through the direct intervention of divine power
b : the world of human experience
c(1) : the entire celestial cosmos
(2) : milky way galaxy
(3) : an aggregate of stars comparable to the Milky Way galaxy
2 : a distinct field or province of thought or reality that forms a closed system or self-inclusive and independent organization
3 : population sense 4
4 : a set that contains all elements relevant to a particular discussion or problem
5 : a great number or quantity a large enough universe of stocks … to choose from— G. B. Clairmont

Definition of UNIVERSE

I suspect that definition one, was preceded by definition two; and was expanded to reflect current knowledge, after astronomers discovered matter outside of our galaxy. If astronomers (that's a BIG if) discover collections of galaxies outside of the currently observed galaxies; I would suspect that they would be consistent in their standards of definition.

Actually Galaxies are contained within the Universe
The Differences Between a Universe, Galaxy & Solar System

 

[HARK!]

Actually Galaxies are contained within the Universe

I know. I stated that in the post you quoted.

 

[Astrophile]

Let's start with a couple of axioms.

2.) Space is infinite. Seriously, I've had people try to dispute this axiom.

The Universe is finite. You seem to have tremendous difficulty grasping this simple concept.

Space is infinite, but the Universe is finite. Aren't these two statements (axioms or concepts) contradictory?

 

[HARK!]

Space is infinite, but the Universe is finite. Aren't these two statements (axioms or concepts) contradictory?

How so?