science proof creation

[Curt]

Very Christian of you to lie. That was why I asked the question - so as to verify that lying is not out of character. Thanks.

2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
2 Pet 1:20
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2 Sam 14:14
14 For we must needs die, and are as water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again; neither doth God respect any person: yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him.
Job 37:24
24 Men do therefore fear him: he respecteth not any that are wise of heart.

Reply

I suppose you never told a lie before you got saved. You make a fool of yourself by assuming things about people, and try to cover up your inability to support your false doctrine with Truth by using defamation tactics. Like I said I could introduce you to the one who can deliver you from all this foolishness. Creation in 6 days by God is a God established fact, and includes every family of creatures that exist in this universe. God said and that makes it unchangeble Truth.

 

[gluadys]

'you shall NOT surely die' -in other words God isn't telling the truth..you won't really die, like He said. Soon as they sinned, by believing this lie of the devil, they started to die. We still die. The devil was a liar from the beginning, and the father of it.

Actually "you shall not surely die" was a true statement, confirmed by God in Genesis 3:22. If the serpent had said absolutely "You shall not die", that would have been a lie. But the phrase was "You shall not surely die" meaning that death was possible, but not inevitable. And, as we see from v22, it was not inevitable. It was necessary to expel Adam and Eve from the garden because as long as they were in the garden they would have access to the Tree of Life---and to the remedy for death. They could have been immortal like the gods if they had had the chance to eat its fruit, even after eating the other. At least that's what God says.

It is my belief that the devil personally possesed each world leader.

You are entitled to your belief, but that one is not supported by scripture. Doesn't make it wrong for you to believe it if you like. Just don't claim the bible says so.

Anyhow, is there some reason you feel that the spiritual universe will not unite with our physical one, at the time of the new heaven and earth?

No, not at all. One of my favorite Sunday school hymns was "This is my Father's world" which ends with the line "...and earth and heaven [shall] be one." I think that is what the final chapters of Revelation show us.

 

[gluadys]

Maybe I give God too much credit for being the One behind the whole exercise. Do you have something against the new testament? You seem to have God pretty far away from things.
Jesus Himself called devil a liar and He made the world, do you think His theology was just different before?

Theology is a human exercise. I don't think God needs to study God, so God has no theology.

 

[time]

Actually "you shall not surely die" was a true statement, confirmed by God in Genesis 3:22. If the serpent had said absolutely "You shall not die", that would have been a lie. But the phrase was "You shall not surely die" meaning that death was possible, but not inevitable. And, as we see from v22, it was not inevitable.

Actually, it was a lie of the devil himself. Death and sin had now entered the world. They had started that instant to indeed die. It was then necessary for God to send a saviour.
1Co 15:22 - For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. -so you see they were certainly deceived and lied to.
Ro 5:17 - For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
So that's the name of the game. It came in the Garden and left on the cross.

It was necessary to expel Adam and Eve from the garden because as long as they were in the garden they would have access to the Tree of Life---and to the remedy for death. They could have been immortal like the gods if they had had the chance to eat its fruit, even after eating the other.

Deathe and sin had entered, and sinful man could not be allowed to reverse the effect of the physical death part, in his irreversable sinful state. Simply put, God had to send His Son to die for us, pay the price, undo the damage, and make a way so we could get out of the sinful state, before we could agian live forever, as was the original plan. The old serpent was a liar.

Just don't claim the bible says so.

Long as you don't claim it says otherwise. People did get posessed. Judas for example. There is a lot of solid basis for thinking that the known quantity, the bible says that the devil was given rule of man's kingdoms, was carried out in a known method of the same devil. Posession. This gives a direct control. We know also the last leader of the world will be precisely the devil in the flesh. No, I'm afraid you have no wiggle room on this.

No, not at all. One of my favorite Sunday school hymns was "This is my Father's world" which ends with the line "...and earth and heaven [shall] be one." I think that is what the final chapters of Revelation show us.

That's the good thing about christians, they can agree on the real important things. The rest don't really matter that much anyhow, and we'll see soon who was right and wrong on some things.

 

[time]

Theology is a human exercise. I don't think God needs to study God, so God has no theology.

Yes, but if Jesus felt a certain way, and said so, we can safely assume He felt the same way walking in Eden.

 

[JohnCJ]

I would be interested in hearing more on what experts in cosmology have to say specifically regarding our understanding of time distance.

My step Father is a scientist for NCAR and NASA. He worked the math for the corrective lens on the Hubble Telescope for fun (he is that kind of guy). His findings were that the Hubble may well have been better suited to focus under water than outside of our atmosphere. His math turned out to be correct and was submitted as part of the corrective lens proposal. The point was that he proved that we know very little about space time distances outside of our atmosphere. He does not hold to this exact theory but supports parts of it.

Read The Universe in a Nutshell by Steven Hawking

 

[gluadys]

Actually, it was a lie of the devil himself. Death and sin had now entered the world. They had started that instant to indeed die. It was then necessary for God to send a saviour.
1Co 15:22 - For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. -so you see they were certainly deceived and lied to.
Ro 5:17 - For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
So that's the name of the game. It came in the Garden and left on the cross.

I notice you left out Genesis 3:22. Please explain what God meant when he said "...lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:..."

Is God not saying that Adam and Eve could still live forever, after eating from the Tree of Knowledge, provided they ate of the Tree of Life? Isn't that why God had to expel them from the garden? So the way to the Tree of Life would be blocked?

So how did the serpent lie? They did not have to die. Death entered through the Tree of Knowledge, but could still be defeated by eating from the Tree of Life. So it was true that they would "not surely die."

It's kind of like the Tree of Knowledge was a poison that killed, but you'll be ok if you can get the antidote, so death is not a sure thing.

It only became sure because a roadblock was set up between them and the antidote.

Deathe and sin had entered, and sinful man could not be allowed to reverse the effect

.

Exactly, "could not be allowed to". But that's a different thing than the fruit itself or the tree itself causing death. It was God's sentence of exile that brought about death, because then there was no way to get to the Tree of Life. So they died because God sentenced them to die, not because of what they had done.

People did get posessed. Judas for example.

So the bible says. But it doesn't say that all rulers of the world are possessed.

We know also the last leader of the world will be precisely the devil in the flesh.

Nope. Don't know any such thing. Not from scripture.

That's the good thing about christians, they can agree on the real important things. The rest don't really matter that much anyhow, and we'll see soon who was right and wrong on some things.

Amen & God bless

 

[time]

If I understand the theory correctly, a vast number of creationists hold to the same "flying out of a speck that could have fit on the head of a pin" belief. I think that the light travel distance issue is the basis for the argument, and also the failure of the argument.

I guess by creationist I meant bible believer, in that God created it how and when He said. Light speed has nothing to do with the spirit world universe I was proposing. It would only have to do with now, in the physical universe. Before the two seperated, light speed was not a limiting factor. When the new heaven comes, and they are merged again, it will not apply either. Therefore, it's application now has no bearing on when it was created. In other words just because it now takes a billion years to travel to a far star, does not mean it will, or did before when the invisible and visible universes will or did merge.

 

[time]

Nope. Don't know any such thing. Not from scripture.

Re 11:7 - And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Sure sounds like the dudes on the dark side!
Re 13:1 - And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
The heads most think would be history's kingdome he ruled. Sure sounds like the devil is in him somehow.
Re 13:2 - And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
Certainly put in power too by the ol boy! It also says he was wounded, expected to die, but was miraculously healed. Sounds like the son of the ol boy to me. He will also do miracles. He'll also get as much of the world as he can to worship him. Bible, you say doesn't tell us these things?
On the other issue you raised, the Eden deth was spititual, I think. That's why, to get us to heaven Jesus had to come. That's why he couldn't let them eat the forever tree, in the sinful spiritual death state. The were deceived.
I didn't want to get too much into things that didn't affect the invisible universe theory for now.

 

[gluadys]

Re 11:7 - And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

snip

Bible, you say doesn't tell us these things?

Did you ever notice that John says all the stuff he sees in Revelation is a vision? Did you ever learn that he wrote about this vision in a genre known as apocalyptic writing? Do you know the purpose and function of an apocalypse? (Hint: apocalypse is not a prophecy of future events).

Bottom line: all of Revelation is symbolic and it is symbolic of the situation Christians were facing in Rome near the end of the 1st century. Has nothing to do with the final ruler of the world.

btw, is not Christ the final ruler of the world? Is that not why he is coming again?

On the other issue you raised, the Eden deth was spititual, I think. That's why, to get us to heaven Jesus had to come. That's why he couldn't let them eat the forever tree, in the sinful spiritual death state. The were deceived.
I didn't want to get too much into things that didn't affect the invisible universe theory for now.

Yes, that is a way to get around the problem.

But now you are adding an interpretation to the text. That's ok. No one can read any text without interpreting it. What I get concerned about is that often people are unable to distinguish between the text and their interpretation of the text. Especially if they have become habituated to intepreting the text in a certain way.

People are always coming up with ideas they think are in the bible that are not really there. They are really historical and traditional interpretations that have been repeated so often they have become reflexive.

Like assuming the serpent in Eden is Satan or that the serpent lied. When you actually look at the text it does not say the serpent is Satan, and it indicates the serpent did not lie.

So where did those ideas come from? From a traditional interpretation of the text that has become "fixed" in Christian theology so deeply that no one questions it. They automatically assume it is right and just skip over evidence that it is not (like Gen 3:22) as if it didn't exist.

Same with Revelation. You are presenting these texts on the assumption that they are predictions of events to come sometime after March 30, 2004. But that assumption avoids looking at what the text meant to the people in the churches John was sending it too. Why would John send them a message from God that had no application to their own time and situation?

Once we understand what John was saying to the churches of the 1st century, we may be able to find material in Revelation that is pertinent to us as well, but first we need to figure out what John was really talking about in all those symbolic visions.

 

[time]

Bottom line: all of Revelation is symbolic and it is symbolic of the situation Christians were facing in Rome near the end of the 1st century. Has nothing to do with the final ruler of the world.

No, ever notice it's not John's revelation? 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
It is a final revelation outlining the end of our world, and even the new one to come. Some things are called by things like kings, beasts, horns, etc. but using Daniel and other places it isn't that hard to see what can and should be taken literally as well. And even the things using some symbolism tell a simple, clear story. A story Jesus Himself says must come to pass. It's no decoy, illusion, or fairy tale. The exact materials of our new city, the gates, wall, and the precise width, length and height all spelled out.
It tells of the last world government, a mark everyone will have to get, that we are to refuse. There is a reason for telling us these things.
No, we live in the ultimate fulfillment of these things, and it was written for us! Hey, I was born a catholic, and well understand people putting everything far off and not really real. Fortunately, I got saved, and realize it is very real. I have no room for interpeting things like God is a liar, sick, or dead, or stupid! He's a friend, and He can show us if we ask. Of course I only found this out after praying to receive Jesus into my heart. (salvation)
http://www.geocities.com/onfire4jesus2/Jesus2.html There is the little prayer here, if you never heard of it.

 

[gluadys]

No, ever notice it's not John's revelation? 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
It is a final revelation outlining the end of our world,

No, it is a vision given through John to the Christian community living under Roman oppression, just as the vision given through the writer of Daniel was given to the Jewish community living under Seleucid oppression.


Certainly Christians, Jews and others living under persecution in any time and place can derive inspiration and hope from these writings. But to lift them out of their time and place and shoehorn them into a different time and place is simply very bad interpretive technique.

 

[mattwebb22]

No Spamming
-RazorX

 

[Chi_Cygni]

That link goes to a domain selling business.

SPAMMER

I'm reporting the post.

 

[mattwebb22]

No Spamming
-RazorX

 

[time]

these writings. But to lift them out of their time and place and shoehorn them into a different time and place is simply very bad interpretive technique.

On the contrary, it is the very reason they were written, to help those in the time that the things written would be fullfilled. Jesus said one time, of some old writings, 'this day are they fulfilled'. Was He a bad interpreter too?
Da 12:4 - But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. (in this case, it was even closed to understanding till our time!) -what's this bad time & place nonscense?
Mt 24:33 - So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Re 22:6 - And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
That's why he told us even the years, and days that the final world leader would be in power, about his covenant, Jesus returning, and a host of other specific information about our time. In fact much of the bible was written exactly for this time. You'll have to peddle your long sleeping God to someone else! He's alive, and well, and His writings are for now, man.

 

[lucaspa]

I would be interested in hearing more on what experts in cosmology have to say specifically regarding our understanding of time distance.

My step Father is a scientist for NCAR and NASA. He worked the math for the corrective lens on the Hubble Telescope for fun (he is that kind of guy). His findings were that the Hubble may well have been better suited to focus under water than outside of our atmosphere. His math turned out to be correct and was submitted as part of the corrective lens proposal. The point was that he proved that we know very little about space time distances outside of our atmosphere. He does not hold to this exact theory but supports parts of it.

What his work showed was that the designers of Hubble didn't know much about optics outside the atmosphere. But that is very different from spacetime distances. Those were worked out using good old trigonometry.

 

[lucaspa]

Back near the creation of our universe, it was necesary for the process of time to be set up, that the physical universe be seperated from the invisible, or spiritual one. As it was seperated, what we had was more or less what we see now. Our physical universe was now under time. So that, the cosmos would reflect that. In other words it really is billions of our light years away! ..It explains a 6200 year old creation, despite the present physical time distance!

Since the galaxies are billions of light years away, they are also billions of years in the past, since a "light year" is the distance it takes light to travel in a year. For the universe to be set up as we see it but the light to be reaching us, it means the light had to have been created in transit. This is deception. It makes God a liar. Congratulations, you have a variant on the Oomphalos Theory. Yes, you get a 6,200 year old creation. The only cost is destroying God as someone we can trust and worship. Who cares about Heaven now? We can't trust God that Heaven will be pleasant or that the dead will be raised to see it!

 

[lucaspa]

That's why he told us even the years, and days that the final world leader would be in power, about his covenant, Jesus returning, and a host of other specific information about our time.

You seem to be ignoring Mat 24:36. Why do you ignore the Bible? Are you so fixated on your own ideas that you won't even listen when the Bible tells you they are wrong?

 

[lucaspa]

You'll have to peddle your long sleeping God to someone else! He's alive, and well, and His writings are for now, man.

That's not fair. Gluadys is not saying that God is sleeping, but that it is wrong to lift passages out of their time period to get them to mean something they don't mean. It's false witness against the Bible.

When you interpret documents, one of the rules for doing so is keeping the document in its historical context. Here are the Rules for Interpretation, notice that the websites are Christian:

http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/b11.html
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/b02.html