science proof creation

[lucaspa]

Oh man, so if light moves 10 times faster, then the sun outputs 10 times more energy. And more then even that, since the energy would be increasing the number of nuclear reactions. YECs just charbroiled the earth again, didn't they?

Not 10 times more energy, but 100 times more energy! It's the square of the speed of light. YEC's not only charboiled the earth, but remember that it's an increase in x-rays also. They just sterilized the planet that way, too.

Our light never had to move faster, if at all. It was left in place as the other disappeared, as the only light that could exist in our plane. Somehow, the proposal is, the seperation process left it the way it is.

So the light was created in transit. When the universe separated, the photons on the way from Andromeda to earth were left in place. That's what you are saying.

But now you are back to deception again. Those photons make Andromeda look 3 million years old. But you say Andromeda is only 6,200 years old. Making something look older than it is is a deception. When people do this for antiques we put them in jail for forgery. Your argument makes God a criminal.

OR, you are saying that Andromeda existed in the spiritual plane and that it was 3 million years old there. In which case, we are right and the universe is 13.4 billion years old! It's just that you have added the idea that the physical plane separated from the spiritual plane 6,200 years ago. But since time is seamless between before the separation and now, all the physical processes we see were happening in the merged plane. Ah, but in other places you say that the processes are different in the merged plane. Time, your idea is internally inconsistent.

(hey it's only an idea, trying to go along with the bible and science)

I understand that, time. And we are doing what we always do when someone (including me) proposes an idea: we test it to see if we can show it to be wrong. If we can, then we simply drop the idea. I hope you will be able to do that.

Almost like we have to accept that say, 90% of the universe is missing from our plane, and our veiw.

Is this a reference to dark matter? The matter isn't "missing"; it's just that we can only see matter that gives off light! Matter that doesn't either give off it's own light or reflect enough light to be seen from earth won't be detected. So, 90% of the universe is not "missing from out plane".

God, and the spirit world MUST be added back in to make it true science. Otherwise we come up with insanity like a godless region of space as big as a speck, that contains what produced the galaxies and stars, and allso life, without God. A lie. Also a degrading, and insulting lie, from the enemy of man, and the enemy of our souls.

Ah, here is the bottom line. Time, Big Bang doesn't say anything about the existence of God. Many Christians take Big Bang as proof of God. See www.reasons.org. Hugh Ross thinks that only atheists can object to Big Bang! Many atheists think BB is proof of God. Look at the book The Big Bang Never Happened by Eric Lerner.

Big Bang does disprove young earth creationism. But YEC is a scientific theory and so what if it is disproved? Now, if some atheist is using BB as evidence against God, say so and we'll help show you how the atheist is mistaken.

What you seem to mean by "true science" is that science must back your belief about God and how God created. No, science doesn't have to do that. Science is agnostic. It simply does not know whether God exists or not and can't tell. Since you do believe in God, all you have to do is sit back, relax in your favorite chair, make some popcorn, pop open a Coke, and let science tell you how God created. God created the universe by the Big Bang.

 

[lucaspa]

Yes, lets say they are. But now it takes time to get there.
No. The light from the complete universe, under this idea, was already reaching us. When the spiritual was seperated, then the universe, including stars was left only with the physical. This could possibly have caused some effects.(redshift?) Because the atomic structure even was now different. (minus the main ingredient-spiritual) Light, then already coming, somehow in the process of seperation, was continued, (or replaced) however, with our slow light. If you measure how long it takes our light now to get there it is very slow. We are under time here. It gets deeper, but I have little time tonight. (hey it's only an idea, trying to go along with the bible and science)

Look at the bold and consider the consequences. Light going much faster than today's light was continuously reaching the earth before the split of the planes. Then at the split, light slowed down.

Don't you see that this creates a gap in the stream of photons such that the photons were reaching us, but then they stop because light slows down. Think of a stream of taffic that is bumper to bumper moving at 50 mph. But one of the cars brakes to 25 mph. This creates a gap between it and the car ahead. You, as the observer at the side of the road, will suddenly not see any cars going past. The gap will last until the slower cars start to arrive.

The problem with this is that there is scriptural and historical evidence that such a gap has never been seen!

Now, redshift comes from motion. Period.

Spiritual is immaterial, yet you are having spritual be a material component of matter. Are you sure you want to do that? If you do that, then there are some unpleasant theological conclusions.

Expanded, maybe, but only since the last several thousand years. Anything before that didn't exist. Not much expansion there to worry about.

If there was no expansion before that, then how did they get so far away? The expansion had to happen. If not in our plane, then in the merged plane. If you say the spirit plane can't expand (which you do say) then you can't get the galaxies separated like we see them. The separation and motion to get the separation must have existed in the merged plane.

Probably that was done in a week. I think you know which one.
Spirit world isn't under time. Ours could expand only in what time it has had. 6200 years.

So you are saying that all the expansion happened in 144 hours? That before that, as the planes separated that all the galaxies were on top of one another? You haven't invoked miracle up until now, but now you seem to be doing so. You are saying that God had to push them apart to their present distances. Before you were saying that they were already separated in the merged plane and kept their separation when the planes separated. This appears to be contradictory. Which one are you saying is correct?

If they are separated after they pop into existence, then we have the deception problem all over again. Take a stream of cars emerging from a garage. Each car coming out bumper to bumper behind the one ahead. Like photons coming from a star. Now suddenly move that garage 5 miles back. You have now created a gap between cars. And the cars from the new location are going to take quite a while to get to you. So we still have the problem of how we are seeing photons from stars in Andromeda. Those photons should not have arrived yet!

Remember, Big Bang is when our universe came into existence, and we don't trace events past that point.

No I'd say it is sailing right back past creation, as far as lunacy can go to the point of not breaking all the laws of physics. Extreme assumption, all without the main ingredient-God.

Please explain this. It does not seem to fit what I said. BB does not sail 'right back past creation' unless you say the universe is young. But that is a theory that is falsified by much evidence. Otherwise, BB is the moment of creation.

Not at all it did. Just your time measurements are way out, becuse you leave out Gods spirit world, which is not bound by time nor tide. We are since the seperation, some thousands of years ago, though.

Either we see a real age, or God deceived us into thinking there was age there. The idea of age comes from several lines of evidence. One of them is lightspeed. Another is radioactive decay and the radioisotopes on earth. Another is geology, which shows processes that had to take a long time -- far longer than 6,000 years. A young earth was shown to be wrong before people knew about radioactivity or the expansion of the universe.

So, we are back to making God be a liar. You said you would drop your theory if that happened. It keeps happening, but you are not dropping the theory. Why?

But we have established the angels, spirits, and God of the bible exist.

We believe God exists. In terms of science, I'm afraid these have not been established.

They are spirits, from the spirit world. Walking thriugh walls, appearing, disappearing, miracles, fly swiftly, and such. Even guard duty at Jesus tobm. Hey wasn't moses even speaking to Jesus one time on the mountain!? Then, even the physical can be affected. Look at those who were 'immediately' on the other side of the sea they were crossing, for example.

I don't recognize that reference. Can you clarify, please? Also, are you sure that all of these are not a manifestation of God which people mistook for angels? After all, God can appear as a burning bush, so couldn't He also appear as an "angel"?

So there is a spirit world, both good and bad (demons etc.).

Are you sure about "demons"? Yes, Jesus cast out "demons", but that wsa the term for curing the sick. They are still miracles, but not necessarily demons.

I have to say that I am uncomfortable with the idea of angels (fallen or otherwise) and demons. It strikes me as very close to polytheism. Instead of one God, we have this chorus of immortal beings, all of whom are sentient, have the power to perform miracles (according to you) and all of whom seemingly have free will. This means a whole host of sentient beings who can disobey God and seem to have powers equal to, or nearly equal to, God. It sounds like they are just like the lesser gods of polytheistic religions.

In the Nicean Creed it says we believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It doesn't say anything about angels or demons. I know there are scriptural references to "heavenly beings" -- such as the host that sings about Jesus' birth. However, is it possible that we are looking at polytheistic influences creeping into Judeo-Christianity rather than real beings?

Then even non christians are aware of life after life, esp, physics, ghosts, etc.

Physics doesn't seem to belong. Do you mean "psychics"? What we are aware is that people have claimed these phenomenon. However, none of them have been established.

When we are raptured, our dead bodies arise, and become immortal. A good example of a merge! As would be the new heaven appearing. OK. tks.

Again, the way to say this is "We believe when we are raptured ..." Maybe not a merge, but simply a recreation of life. If you put all the physical pieces of the body back together, down to the atomic level, then you will have life. Kinda like the transporter on Star Trek, only in time in addition to space. No merge. Gotta consider the alternative hypotheses, time.

 

[ThePhoenix]

Not 10 times more energy, but 100 times more energy! It's the square of the speed of light. YEC's not only charboiled the earth, but remember that it's an increase in x-rays also. They just sterilized the planet that way, too.

Oh geez, I messed that one up bad, didn't I. That would probably bake the earth to a nice 400 C, or even higher. Fried Adam anyone?

 

[time]

I don't really see anything incompatible with God kicking it all off with say 'The Big Bang' and letting evolution do the rest.

It's a popular "belief". For me, I need a God who means it if He says the morning and the evening were the first day, etc. I know people do elaborate contortionist mental apologetics for their poor God, who couldn't possibly have meant what He said. Yes, why stop there, we may as well through out the miracles, why, they didn't really happen either. Then all the precise prophesies for our time, why, they have to go to, you know, it's not like they were actually written for now. Even angels, why, He didn't really mean there were some. And this new Jerusalem golden city business, hec, it must be a tale as well. Yes, heaven even is questionable. The devil, oh no, just another story. And the star of Bethlehem? Nope, sorry, never happened. How about the virgin birth? Hmm, could be, a lot of the people who don't believe the rest, may allow this, after all, it's not got much sex in it! Finally, this business about Jesus dying for us, and actually raising from the dead... I wonder if they even really believe that? Hope so. That's the main thing. Me, I take it all, and figure anyone who says different, like scientists, just don't know enough yet to make an intelligent comment! (assuming they are not lying on purpose, of course, as I don't believe most of them are)

 

[time]

..consider the consequences. Light going much faster than today's light was continuously reaching the earth before the split of the planes. Then at the split, light slowed down

Remember, the key here. The light that would have been at play here, was not our light. Nothing like our light. Not even existant in the physical plane. So we cannot look at our light and start talking about how it now works. If we see Jesus, after He rose from the dead, He appeared to many. Suddenly, He may have appeared in the room. Or disappeared. He could rise up to the clouds. This we can not do. How about moses talking to Jesus, kind of like a ghost one time. Can I put my finger through your head, or a wall? No. So you can not say, look because your atoms are such and such a way, these spirits had the same exact type of atoms. Very different! Same with the light. You cannot apply your laws to it.

You, as the observer at the side of the road, will suddenly not see any cars going past. The gap will last until the slower cars start to arrive.

Perhaps it was ufos that were arriving first, but as it was seperated, they were turned into cars, still arriving, only much slower?

Spiritual is immaterial, yet you are having spritual be a material component of matter.

I don't think so. You may see it backwards. Maybe the material is 'immaterial' so to speak, or less important. Besides, the spititual may be immaterial here in the physical, but you can still hug your mother when you die, and first get there, (or other relative or loved one, as the case may be). Different material, yes. Not visible ot touchable here in our temporal physical, yes, very very real nonetheless, and very material in their own spiritual universe.

If there was no expansion before that, then how did they get so far away?

Maybe He stretched out the heavens like He said, when He said!

If you say the spirit plane can't expand (which you do say)

I do? Why, I don't see why it couldn't, in some ways, if He wanted it to. For example, if a child was born in heaven, wouldn't the spirit world expand a little right there? (her tummy too). I don't want to get sidelined, I suspect you won't like that one! Either way, there are women there, such as one girl it talks about in Proverbs 8. This babe was even there before God made the universe! (including the world)

You haven't invoked miracle up until now

OK, I admit God stetching out the heavens, making the stars, and the world, and us, was to me-a miracle! Every baby born is a miracle! Yes I believe in multitudes of miracles every single day!

BB does not sail 'right back past creation' unless you say the universe is young.

Yes it is as young as God says it is. Now what we are attempting to do is falsify 'your' evidence!

Either we see a real age, or God deceived us into thinking there was age there. The idea of age comes from several lines of evidence. One of them is lightspeed. Another is radioactive decay and the radioisotopes on earth. Another is geology, which shows processes that had to take a long time -- far longer than 6,000 years. A young earth was shown to be wrong before people knew about radioactivity or the expansion of the universe.

Good, you're starting to look already to another line of possible defense. I am not at all worried by that stuff. For this thread, I just am trying to tackle the heavens.

So, we are back to making God be a liar. You said you would drop your theory if that happened. It keeps happening, but you are not dropping the theory. Why?

So far all you've been able to come up with is the misconceptions and limitations of modern physical universe science. I meant really, more, if the bible said there was something wrong with it. But the more I see these last few days, the more I am amazed how anything but that is the case.

We believe God exists. In terms of science, I'm afraid these have not been established.

Yes, it's a pity they can't even get up the smarts to detect spirits! Therefore science as an origins device is severely retarded, since they can't even detect the creator! Can you believe some people would actually take their word over God's, despite this horrible handicap?

I don't recognize that reference. Can you clarify, please? Also, are you sure that all of these are not a manifestation of God which people mistook for angels? After all, God can appear as a burning bush, so couldn't He also appear as an "angel"?

An angel wrestled with Jacob, came to Mary, Sodom, were sent to guard Jesus' tomb, busted some early christians outta jail even! -Even the devil knew that. Mt 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone

Are you sure about "demons"? Yes, Jesus cast out "demons", but that wsa the term for curing the sick.

Mt 8:28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way. ---foaming at the mouth sometimes, hanging out in tombs, speaking to Jesus things like 'hast thou come to torment us before the time?' -being cast into a herd of swine, etc. Come on now.

This means a whole host of sentient beings who can disobey God and seem to have powers equal to, or nearly equal to, God. It sounds like they are just like the lesser gods of polytheistic religions.

Yes even we can perform miracles in His name! Just because there are maybe billions of spirit beings, and angels, does not mean they are God! And yes about a third of the angels followed the devil and rebelled, what about it? I think those days are over, seeing what a mess they got everything into as a result! Guess they're part of the demo!

In the Nicean Creed it says we believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It doesn't say anything about angels or demons.

That's where the bible comes in.

Do you mean "psychics"?

Yes, so many people believe in that stuff. Many predictions do happen, many don't.

when we are raptured ..." Maybe not a merge, but simply a recreation of life. If you put all the physical pieces of the body back together, down to the atomic level, then you will have life.

I can leave that one, as it doesn't matter much to the overall equation here for now.

 

[TasManOfGod]

Reflecting on how the stars could be billions of light years away, and yet still made only recently,

This statement made me think of the trees in the Garden of Eden. Would they have annular rings or not?
Sorry if his question has already been covered as I have not read all posts

 

[time]

This statement made me think of the trees in the Garden of Eden. Would they have annular rings or not?
Sorry if his question has already been covered as I have not read all posts

Yes, things were created old.Yes they would have had rings. Yes, Adam was a grown man from day one. The billions reffered to though, by me, are not in opposition to this. Man was created by God some 6200 years ago. The seperation near there somewhere of the spiritual from the physical, left us in a physical universe. Our light now is trpped here as well, and is very slow. So now it would take billions of years to get to the stars. This means nothing, as to when they were created. Then, it was not a physical only universe, but a combined one with thwe spiritual. Therefore the light was not bound by things that now make it slow. Therefore it took no time to get to the stars. Now it would. When the new heaven comes, as the bible says, again, this will be complete, and our time and lightspeed again will be a memory, and not applicable! If this is too complicated let me know.

 

[TasManOfGod]

but the question remains - did Adam have a belly button ?

 

[time]

but the question remains - did Adam have a belly button ?

I don't see why not. What would it matter?

 

[TasManOfGod]

I don't see why not. What would it matter?

I was wondering if production equates to reproduction

 

[time]

I was wondering if production equates to reproduction

Well, God produced us, so there's the production. The first instructions to them were to 'get together' and have babies like it was going out of style. There's the reproduction. So it seems related by a creator in this case. Belly buttons, probably, and all the rest of the equipment.

 

[TasManOfGod]

Well, God produced us, so there's the production. The first instructions to them were to 'get together' and have babies like it was going out of style. There's the reproduction. So it seems related by a creator in this case. Belly buttons, probably, and all the rest of the equipment.

So you think he (Adam) had one (belly button) just to look like everybody else . OK you might have something there

Tas

 

[time]

So you think he (Adam) had one (belly button) just to look like everybody else

I don't see why not. Just like the chicken in the garden laid the first egg. I guess, when we gwt to heaven, and we ask Adam if he has a belly button, and he says 'yes'. he may give this reason why. That if he didn't, he would stick out in Heaven! He'd be the only man there without one! So maybe God had some foresight, not to make ol Adam feel bad when he got there.