School's are not Teaching

[The Barbarian]

Is there a correlation between being a good student and being a good teacher?

Knowing what one is talking about matters, yes. But that's only part of it. I became a teacher after I retired, and I really think all my other experiences in science and technology made it easier to teach.

I was not such a good student, BTW. I spent a lot of time, digging into things that interested me, but as an undergraduate, I just barely got though a lot of courses that didn't appeal to me. The library was my favorite place in college.

 

[miamited]

Hi @Paradox.79

Finland has the best education system in the world.

While I read over your list of 'differences' between the operation of Finnish schools, I've never actually considered Finns to be particularly better educated than American students. They are smart, yes. As a society they seem to get along better than most Americans do, but I would chalk that up to different culture and less population and thus overcrowding of its people.

What exactly are you basing this 'best education system in the world' claim, on?

And please understand that I know the American education system has faults and our teachers are often asked to do the impossible and aren't particularly well respected in our culture...but the 'world' is a lot bigger than little old U.S.A. We've got a lot of Asian nations when we spread our wings to cover the 'world' and I think they are actually considered by many to be pretty good at their educating of their young. Russia and Germany have produced some of the greatest thinking and scientific minds the 'world' has ever known. Even the U.S. conscripted German scientists from WWII to work in our American labs on nuclear processes.

God bless,
Ted

 

[JacksBratt]

yes that is federal income tax.
Finland income tax is caped at 30% for the highest earners with the average citizen of Finland paying about 17%

American's also pay state taxes as well as property taxes, sales tax and dozens of others. In the end the tax burden of a Finnish citizen isn't that much different from the tax burden of an American. However Finns get much better benefits from their taxes

I don't doubt that the tax burden in the US is higher than just their income tax. Just like in Canada, the governments are so bloated and top heavy that they are a bottomless pit ... sucking up the tax dollars and pouring them into oblivion.

 

[JacksBratt]

How many other taxes both federal and local do the citizens of the US pay than income tax? I would love to only be paying 24% of my total income to government through all forms of taxation. The income tax is, for most taxpayers, only a small portion of the taxation we are subjected to. Social security tax, Medicare tax, excise taxes state income taxes, property taxes , corporate income taxes and tariffs ( which are passed along to the consumer) , sales taxes, utility taxes, etc. etc. etc. Which means US citizen's total tax could well be much higher than 56%. To compare the two countries taxation we would have to take into account all the taxes paid by citizens in each country. I have no idea how much more taxation is levied on the citizens of Finland than the income tax they pay.

Yep, like Canada, in the US tax freedom day is near the end of May. Canada is May 24, the US is May 31st.

https://www.adamsmith.org/taxfreedomday

 

[JacksBratt]

yes that is federal income tax.
Finland income tax is caped at 30% for the highest earners with the average citizen of Finland paying about 17%

American's also pay state taxes as well as property taxes, sales tax and dozens of others. In the end the tax burden of a Finnish citizen isn't that much different from the tax burden of an American. However Finns get much better benefits from their taxes

How do you think that they manage the tax dollars so much better?

 

[miamited]

Hi @JacksBratt

Oddly enough, while tax freedom day in the U.S. is sometime in mid to early April according to this source: Tax Freedom Day® - Tax Foundation

In Finland tax freedom day isn't until mid June according to this source: Finland Celebrates Tax Freedom Day » World Taxpayers Associations

The two sources do have different years as their base year, but in further checking it does seem that the dates are still pretty much the same, within a few days. One has to wonder why, if Finland pays less tax, is the tax freedom day so far out? Do Finns not make as much money? Worth looking into.

God bless,
Ted

 

[JacksBratt]

Hi @JacksBratt

Oddly enough, while tax freedom day in the U.S. is sometime in mid to early April according to this source: Tax Freedom Day® - Tax Foundation

In Finland tax freedom day isn't until mid June according to this source: Finland Celebrates Tax Freedom Day » World Taxpayers Associations

The two sources do have different years as their base year, but in further checking it does seem that the dates are still pretty much the same, within a few days. One has to wonder why, if Finland pays less tax, is the tax freedom day so far out? Do Finns not make as much money? Worth looking into.

God bless,
Ted

I couldn't find much on Finland. Not from 2021 or 2020 anyway. Could be that they make less eh?

 

[JacksBratt]

True.

I've known several folks who came from affluent families who were well-loved in the home and ended up addicted to drugs and/or dead in drunk driving accidents or even in jail for turning to a life of crime. Likewise, I've known folks, like myself, who grew up in poor single-parent households who became success stories. Ultimately, the one responsible for how well they do in school, and life in general, is the one who is attending school and doing the work in their own fields, a.k.a. themselves.

Problem is that schools, academia today, is trying to tell our youth what to believe, what politics they should follow. Instead of teaching them how to read, write, do math and learn about their country, other countries and the history that has got us here.

There was an election in my province years ago. A buddy of mine was in grade school. One of the political parties was not going to treat the teachers unions very nicely. As a result, all the teachers were against that party. It should not have even been posted or presented in the school rooms. None of the kids could even vote. However, my friend was indoctrinated with political thinking that ran contrary to that one political party.

He could not understand why his parents, his hockey coach, his friends parents and many others were so happy that this party won the election... by a large margin. He just thought that everyone hated them.

This is the influence that teachers can have on the youth. It's dangerous if it is not kept in check.

 

[SilverBear]

How do you think that they manage the tax dollars so much better?

they choose to spend it on better things than the US does

 

[The Barbarian]

they choose to spend it on better things than the US does

This is true. We have had, over the years, more and more welfare for corporations in all sorts of ways that actually impaired competition and innovation, while squandering money that should have been spent on infrastructure and education.

 

[spiritfilledjm]

Problem is that schools, academia today, is trying to tell our youth what to believe, what politics they should follow. Instead of teaching them how to read, write, do math and learn about their country, other countries and the history that has got us here.

There was an election in my province years ago. A buddy of mine was in grade school. One of the political parties was not going to treat the teachers unions very nicely. As a result, all the teachers were against that party. It should not have even been posted or presented in the school rooms. None of the kids could even vote. However, my friend was indoctrinated with political thinking that ran contrary to that one political party.

He could not understand why his parents, his hockey coach, his friends parents and many others were so happy that this party won the election... by a large margin. He just thought that everyone hated them.

This is the influence that teachers can have on the youth. It's dangerous if it is not kept in check.

Yup

 

[grasping the after wind]

Knowing what one is talking about matters, yes. But that's only part of it. I became a teacher after I retired, and I really think all my other experiences in science and technology made it easier to teach.

I was not such a good student, BTW. I spent a lot of time, digging into things that interested me, but as an undergraduate, I just barely got though a lot of courses that didn't appeal to me. The library was my favorite place in college.

One doesn't need to have been an excellent student or an expert in one's field to teach basic elementary high school material. I would suggest that the skills need to teach students, that don't necessarily have a natural inclination to immerse themselves in one particular subject, are quite different than the skills needed to become an expert in a field that the prospective expert finds intrinsically fascinating. Someone that is completely taken by a particular field of study doesn't actually even need a teacher , just someone to ask questions of that knows the answers or can tell them where the answers might be found.

 

[RDKirk]

check your source for what the tax rate in the United States is

Add in the cost of health insurance.

 

[RDKirk]

Really? Are the Finns the leading innovators in most fields? Do the best engineers, scientists, medical doctors, philosophers etc. mostly come from there? When ranking an education system I would look at how cutting edge the economy of a country is first. After all the best education system should produce the top achievers in the world. Is Finland supplying that? I find that the popular pastime of ranking things is totally subjectively based upon what any particular individual or group of rankers prefer to prioritize and not based upon objective criterion that would be universally agreed upon.

Well, that evokes a different question--which has a healthcare corollary.

Is the best public education system the one that produces a small number who are the "best" and leaves the great majority as poor to mediocre... or is the best public education system the one that produces fewer of "the best" but gets nearly everyone up to "very good to excellent?"

 

[miamited]

Add in the cost of health insurance.

Hi @RDKirk

Good thinking. It had completely slipped my mind that the tax rates in most European nations include what we pay for healthcare premiums and deductibles and co-pays. Most Europeans do not pay squat to go visit pretty much any kind of doctor or for any kind of medical services.

Thanks for that reminder.

God bless,
Ted

 

[The Barbarian]

One doesn't need to have been an excellent student or an expert in one's field to teach basic elementary high school material. I would suggest that the skills need to teach students, that don't necessarily have a natural inclination to immerse themselves in one particular subject, are quite different than the skills needed to become an expert in a field that the prospective expert finds intrinsically fascinating. Someone that is completely taken by a particular field of study doesn't actually even need a teacher , just someone to ask questions of that knows the answers or can tell them where the answers might be found.

Yes. One has to tell a story that engages kids. So(for example) my discussion about calendar reform had to be kind of a stand-up routine.

Astronomer to Julius Caesar:
"Well, we're done. What will we call the new calendar?"

Julius: "How about the Julian calendar?"

"Ehhh... O.K Well, we had to put in 2 more months to make it work. I'm going to put them in the summer. What should we call the first one?"

Julius: "How about we call it 'Julius'?"

Astronomer "Ehhh... how about 'July'?"

"Fine, fine. July, then."

"And the other one?"

I dunno. Let me ask my son. "Hey Augustus..."

Later, Augustus says "No fair! Your month has 31 days and mine only has 30!"

(Caesar looks at Astronomer)

"No problem. We'll take one out of February; no one likes February, anyway. So instead of 29 days, it will have 28 days, except when the year is divisible by four, and then it will have 29."

"Sounds great."

Then we go on to explain that the year isn't exactly 365.25 days long, so things got out of hand by the 1700s, when Pope Gregory got some other astronomers together to figure it out. They did the same thing, but the new rule was "29 days for February whenever the year is divisible by 4, except if the year is also divisible by 100, in which case we'll leave it at 28 days."

And with that, we finally had a calendar better than the one the Mayans used.

Well, it probably didn't go exactly that way, but they never forget the rule.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Add in the cost of health insurance.

As far as I can tell the US has one of the most taxed populace on the planet with the biggest debt and one of the worst outcomes for the money being spent. Am I mistaken? If so please someone show me where I am. I think we have built a money spending operatus that includes federal, state and local governments along with independent government agencies whose sole purpose is to find ways to spend as much money as possible. Delivering poor results becomes an indispensable excuse to justify spending even more. The argument is based upon the irrational idea that money can solve e all problems so if spending X did not work then one needs to spend X plus Y and when that doesn't work one needs to spend X plus Y plus Z and at no time is any thought of how to solve a problem other than throwing more money at it to be entertained.

At one point we could look to the military and say that at least that part of the government functioned well. Afghanistan should have disabused us all of that fantasy. Other countries government's may be well run enough to put complete trust in them to be in charge of their citizens health care, I don't know. The myriad levels of US government has consistently proven that they certainly are not.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Well, that evokes a different question--which has a healthcare corollary.

Is the best public education system the one that produces a small number who are the "best" and leaves the great majority as poor to mediocre... or is the best public education system the one that produces fewer of "the best" but gets nearly everyone up to "very good to excellent?"

Yes, deciding what is the best is very subjective isn't it. I can't accept either of your examples as the best . My idea of the best would be the one that produces a large number who are the leaders in their field and gets everyone else up to at least competent and as many as possible to good or excellent.

 

[The Barbarian]

Yes, deciding what is the best is very subjective isn't it. I can't accept either of your examples as the best . My idea of the best would be the one that produces a large number who are the leaders in their field and gets everyone else up to at least competent and as many as possible to good or excellent.

It's what a decent school system should do. Mine, for example, has several vocational campuses, including agricultural technology and digital animation. But they also have Advanced Placement courses, and even a path to earn an associate's degree though a local community college by graduation day.

One size can't fit all, and public schools should be prepared to deal with that reality.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Yes. One has to tell a story that engages kids. So(for example) my discussion about calendar reform had to be kind of a stand-up routine.

Astronomer to Julius Caesar:
"Well, we're done. What will we call the new calendar?"

Julius: "How about the Julian calendar?"

"Ehhh... O.K Well, we had to put in 2 more months to make it work. I'm going to put them in the summer. What should we call the first one?"

Julius: "How about we call it 'Julius'?"

Astronomer "Ehhh... how about 'July'?"

"Fine, fine. July, then."

"And the other one?"

I dunno. Let me ask my son. "Hey Augustus..."

Later, Augustus says "No fair! Your month has 31 days and mine only has 30!"

(Caesar looks at Astronomer)

"No problem. We'll take one out of February; no one likes February, anyway. So instead of 29 days, it will have 28 days, except when the year is divisible by four, and then it will have 29."

"Sounds great."

Then we go on to explain that the year isn't exactly 365.25 days long, so things got out of hand by the 1700s, when Pope Gregory got some other astronomers together to figure it out. They did the same thing, but the new rule was "29 days for February whenever the year is divisible by 4, except if the year is also divisible by 100, in which case we'll leave it at 28 days."

And with that, we finally had a calendar better than the one the Mayans used.

Well, it probably didn't go exactly that way, but they never forget the rule.

That is fairly humorous but somewhat historically incorrect.