Scholars on BOTH sides agree - Saturday is the seventh day - the Sabbath of Exodus 20

[1stcenturylady]

Appears to be a self-conficted statement. Did you make a typo???

Or are you seriously trying out a new doctrine idea that you have?

Let me rewrite it so you understand what I said.

"What you don't understand is everyone who doesn't have the Holy Spirit and ALSO DOESN'T walk in the Spirit is UNDER the law. So you are right there."

However, if you walk in the Spirit you are NOT UNDER the law. Why? Can you answer that? If you get that right, maybe we can get somewhere."

 

[Ronald]

Though we are on the same side, we may not be on the same page. I'd like to see. So, what does grace mean to you? We know it doesn't mean we are now allowed to sin, so how would you describe grace?

Romans 6:15 "What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?"

Grace is unmerited favor. We are saved by Grace through faith and this is not of ourselves, but a gift. The gift grounded in sacrifice of the Lord Jesus on the cross. Salvation is given to us when we put our faith in Christ.
Being under Grace doesn't mean we can sin. It just means we are saved by Grace because our sins are forgiven (past, present and future). We are not given cart blanch to go out and sin ... "Now I'm saved, I can do anything I want ..."
The Law was given so that we know sin. But we don't keep it in order to be saved, we practice righteousness and mortify the lusts of the flesh.
Since we can't keep the Law, we obviously can't keep the Sabbath either.

 

[Ronald]

well we have the LAW written on the heart Jeremiah 31:31-33 -- the one Jeremiah knew about.
Unchanged in the NT - Hebrews 8:6-10 verbatim quote of Jeremiah.

This means -- it is "still a sin to take God's name in vain" etc.





Interesting but none of it is an argument for stealing or killing or coveting. I think we all agree on that.

I 'assume' you are in agreement with the title and OP that the Bible Sabbath a we see in Exodus 20:11 and as kept in the days of Christ - is our "Saturday" while the "first day of the week" -- the day on which Jesus was resurrected - is our "Sunday".

I agree, the Law was written on our hearts, it is the Law of Love (love God, love your neighbor). It is spiritual, not written on tablets. And we are all sinners under Jesus two commandments for which He said all others fall under. He did not require us to keep the Sabbath in the NT. I believe the whole concept of the day of rest, the Sabbath, was symbolic for Christ, He is our Sabbath, in Him we have rest. You could say the same for history, 6,000 years of work and 1,000 of peace (also being in Christ) in the Millennial Kingdom.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Grace is unmerited favor. We are saved by Grace through faith and this is not of ourselves, but a gift. The gift grounded in sacrifice of the Lord Jesus on the cross. Salvation is given to us when we put our faith in Christ.
Being under Grace doesn't mean we can sin. It just means we are saved by Grace because our sins are forgiven (past, present and future). We are not given cart blanch to go out and sin ... "Now I'm saved, I can do anything I want ..."
The Law was given so that we know sin. But we don't keep it in order to be saved, we practice righteousness and mortify the lusts of the flesh.
Since we can't keep the Law, we obviously can't keep the Sabbath either.

A major ingredient is missing. The Holy Spirit. He is the only reason we can be righteous. Not only was righteousness a gift from Jesus Romans 5:17, but we have the power through the Holy Spirit to practice righteousness successfully. 1 John 3:7.

Grace is no longer unmerited favor after we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Then it becomes the power of God.

Acts 4:33 And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all."

 

[BobRyan]

I agree, the Law was written on our hearts, it is the Law of Love (love God, love your neighbor). It is spiritual, not written on tablets.

In Matt 22 before the cross - Christ is asked "what are the two great commandments".
He said - right out of the Law of Moses
"Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5
"Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18

And of course the Jews agreed that He had given the right answer. These two commandments from the Law of Moses - are the immovable foundation upon which all of Law and not only the Law - but also the prophets are firmly established - according to Christ in Matthew 22.

And we are all sinners

Indeed - Romans 3 says "all have sinned" -- and Romans 3 also says that the LAW of God as given in the OT continues to this very day - condemning all mankind as sinners... all mankind needing the Gospel.

Romans 3:19-20
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.


And in that same chapter - Paul says of that same LAW of God --
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

under Jesus two commandments for which He said all others fall under. He did not require us to keep the Sabbath

1. Jesus never quoted the command "do not take God's name in vain" neither did any other NT writer -- but it still applies.
2. Romans 3:31 does not say "we delete the Law by our faith"
3. For all eternity after the cross - in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Isaiah 66:23
4. "What matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
5. "This IS the LOVE of God - that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:2-3
6. "There REMAINS there a SABBATH rest for the people of God" Hebrews 4

In any case - I believe you already agreed that the Bible Sabbath is what we today call "Saturday" - which is the main topic of this thread - so again - I thank you for that.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

What you don't understand is everyone who doesn't have the Holy Spirit and walks in the Spirit is UNDER the law. .

Appears to be a self-conficted statement. Did you make a typo???

Or are you seriously trying out a new doctrine idea that you have?

Let me rewrite it so you understand what I said.

"What you don't understand is everyone who doesn't have the Holy Spirit and ALSO DOESN'T walk in the Spirit is UNDER the law. So you are right there."

Indeed - that would be the doctrine that everyone here agrees with.

And everyone who has the Spirit - walks in the Spirit with the LAW of God written on the heart.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Grace is unmerited favor. We are saved by Grace through faith and this is not of ourselves, but a gift. The gift grounded in sacrifice of the Lord Jesus on the cross. Salvation is given to us when we put our faith in Christ.
Being under Grace doesn't mean we can sin. It just means we are saved by Grace because our sins are forgiven (past, present and future). We are not given cart blanch to go out and sin ... "Now I'm saved, I can do anything I want ..."
The Law was given so that we know sin. But we don't keep it in order to be saved, we practice righteousness and mortify the lusts of the flesh.

Certainly that much is true.

Since we can't keep the Law, we obviously can't keep the Sabbath either.

Paul identifies those who "can't keep the Law" as the lost - because the saved walk in the Spirit.

Romans 8
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

James 2 argues that "he who is guilty of one - is guilty of all" when it comes to the LAW of God - not as an effort to try and get all the saints to "take God's name in vain - after all obedience is hopeless" - but rather James 2 is arguing FOR obedience to God - not rebellion.

 

[Ronald]

.

 

[Ronald]

Certainly that much is true.



Paul identifies those who "can't keep the Law" as the lost - because the saved walk in the Spirit.

Romans 8
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

James 2 argues that "he who is guilty of one - is guilty of all" when it comes to the LAW of God - not as an effort to try and get all the saints to "take God's name in vain - after all obedience is hopeless" - but rather James 2 is arguing FOR obedience to God - not rebellion.

Didn't say we don't subject ourselves to the Law. We know what sin is when we subject ourselves to the Law.
> You stated something different above: "Paul identifies those who "can't keep the Law" as lost ..."
No, he did not. Don't change the meaning of the words. Paul said as you quoted, "Subject itself to the Law of God". This does not mean "keep the Law"-- nobody has ever kept the Law accept Christ!
So watch what you spew out there.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Appears to be a self-conficted statement. Did you make a typo???

Or are you seriously trying out a new doctrine idea that you have?



Indeed - that would be the doctrine that everyone here agrees with.

And everyone who has the Spirit - walks in the Spirit with the LAW of God written on the heart.

in Christ,

Bob

If we walk in the Spirit, and are not under the law, what law would that be?

 

[1stcenturylady]

The Holy Spirit is not missing, I just did not cover Him in my comment. Would you like me say a few things? I wrote a book and devoted a chapter on the Holy Spirit.
Here's the first paragraph: " A fundamental belief in the Christian faith is that the Holy Spirit is God. He is a person -- not a force and is distinct from the Father and the Son. I have gathered a partial collection of scriptures (about 54, too numerous to list here) revealing attributes that qualify the Holy Spirit as a person and God. These clearly express that the Holy Spirit teaches, guides, counsels, leads, gives truth, hears, speaks, is all powerful (omnipotent), searches all truth which means He has all knowledge (omniscience), is omnipresent since billions are comforted by Him, bears witness to Christ and glorifies Him, is wise, gives gifts, baptizes us, makes promises, loves us, fellowships with us, sanctifies us, justifies us, convicts us of sin and edifies us." (from "Hell ... If I Know" by Ronald D. Bruno, copyright 2010)










You cannot be born again unless you are baptized by the Holy Spirit

How does the Spirit guide us?

 

[Ronald]

How does the Spirit guide us?

When God dwells in you, His Spirit communes with your spirit and so His thoughts become your thoughts and that guides you to act on your thoughts. We are to walk in the Spirit, not by the flesh. We learn how to distinguish between what is good and evil, from the truth and a lie and so the Holy Spirit gives us direction, confirming what Jesus told us to be true. Jesus is the truth and the way and so we follow Him. Sometimes we get the message wrong, misinterpret it and distort it because the world and our own sinful nature gets in the way. We have a duel nature, the flesh and the spirit which war against each other and so we still do things that we do not want to do. As Paul was conflicted with this, he said it is the sin that dwells in him. So we are guided by God but drift off the path by sin. This is why the Bible tells us to be continuously pray about every move and decision and for everyone around us. The enemy is right there if you relax and allow yourself to drift off.

 

[1stcenturylady]

When God dwells in you, His Spirit communes with your spirit and so His thoughts become your thoughts and that guides you to act on your thoughts. We are to walk in the Spirit, not by the flesh. We learn how to distinguish between what is good and evil, from the truth and a lie and so the Holy Spirit gives us direction, confirming what Jesus told us to be true. Jesus is the truth and the way and so we follow Him. Sometimes we get the message wrong, misinterpret it and distort it because the world and our own sinful nature gets in the way. We have a duel nature, the flesh and the spirit which war against each other and so we still do things that we do not want to do. As Paul was conflicted with this, he said it is the sin that dwells in him. So we are guided by God but drift off the path by sin. This is why the Bible tells us to be continuously pray about every move and decision and for everyone around us. The enemy is right there if you relax and allow yourself to drift off.

I agreed with you up until the last part on Romans 7 which you alluded to. This was what it was like for Paul as a former Pharisee under the law trying in his own strength to keep it. Who can save me from this body of death - Jesus. So Jesus gift of the indwelling of His Spirit is the end to that battle of the mind and spirit.

Romans 6 asks why sin when we have died to sin through Christ. That is what happens when we have been baptized with the Spirit. And you are right, we are not even a Christian is we have not been baptized with Christ's Spirit. Romans 8:8-9

This doesn't mean that we are robots, we can still sin if we do not crucify the flesh. Paul said, "I die daily." The power of the flesh is gone, but we still have free will. We can make it very hard on ourselves if we do not choose our friends wisely, or if we become unequally yoked with unbelievers. This is the reason for regular assembling ourselves with a close-knit gathering of believers. If we go to a large church, it is the reason they should be offering cell groups for Bible study and socializing. Any who do not, ask why not. It is very important.

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 6 asks why sin when we have died to sin through Christ.

Indeed it does

 

[BobRyan]

If we walk in the Spirit, and are not under the law, what law would that be?

The one Jeremiah knew about in Jere 3:31-33 the one written on the heart under the New Covenant... the one in Romans 3:19-20 that condemns the entire world as sinners in need of the Gospel - and yet "the Law ESTABLISHed by our faith" as Paul says in that same chapter Romans 3:31. - the LAW that has "do not take God's name in vain" in it.

as Paul points out in Romans 3:19-20 "UNDER the LAW" means "under condemnation of the LAW" -- it is note a scheme to get Christians to take God's name in vain -- as Romans 6 points out.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Indeed it does

However, you believe sin is breaking one of the Ten Commandments, when it goes much deeper than that.

The eternal law of God is to love. The Ten Commandments is just the tip of the iceberg, and is NOT the full depth of what God requires.

 

[1stcenturylady]

The one Jeremiah knew about in Jere 3:31-33 the one written on the heart under the New Covenant... the one in Romans 3:19-20 that condemns the entire world as sinners in need of the Gospel - and yet "the Law ESTABLISHed by our faith" as Paul says in that same chapter Romans 3:31. - the LAW that has "do not take God's name in vain" in it.

as Paul points out in Romans 3:19-20 "UNDER the LAW" means "under condemnation of the LAW" -- it is note a scheme to get Christians to take God's name in vain -- as Romans 6 points out.

It looks like never the twain shall meet if I teach on the law of the Spirit of life in Christ, and you only teach on the law of sin and death. They are at odds with each other.

 

[BobRyan]

If we walk in the Spirit, and are not under the law, what law would that be?

The one Jeremiah knew about in Jere 3:31-33 the one written on the heart under the New Covenant... the one in Romans 3:19-20 that condemns the entire world as sinners in need of the Gospel - and yet "the Law ESTABLISHed by our faith" as Paul says in that same chapter Romans 3:31. - the LAW that has "do not take God's name in vain" in it.

as Paul points out in Romans 3:19-20 "UNDER the LAW" means "under condemnation of the LAW" -- it is note a scheme to get Christians to take God's name in vain -- as Romans 6 points out.

However, you believe sin is breaking one of the Ten Commandments,

I believe "the Bible"

1 John 3:4 "SIN IS transgression of the LAW".

James 2 -
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.

And that means - it is "still sin" to take God's name in vain... even for Christians,,, even under the NEW Covenant of Jeremiah 31 - quoted verbatim in Hebrews 8:6-10

 

[BobRyan]

It looks like never the twain shall meet if I teach on the law of the Spirit of life in Christ, and you only teach on the law of sin and death. They are at odds with each other.

You are merely "quoting you" as your proof.

And of course you are free to speculate and have your opinion... you do have free will.

 

[1stcenturylady]

The one Jeremiah knew about in Jere 3:31-33 the one written on the heart under the New Covenant... the one in Romans 3:19-20 that condemns the entire world as sinners in need of the Gospel - and yet "the Law ESTABLISHed by our faith" as Paul says in that same chapter Romans 3:31. - the LAW that has "do not take God's name in vain" in it.

as Paul points out in Romans 3:19-20 "UNDER the LAW" means "under condemnation of the LAW" -- it is note a scheme to get Christians to take God's name in vain -- as Romans 6 points out.



I believe "the Bible"

1 John 3:4 "SIN IS transgression of the LAW".

James 2 -
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.

And that means - it is "still sin" to take God's name in vain... even for Christians,,, even under the NEW Covenant of Jeremiah 31 - quoted verbatim in Hebrews 8:6-10

We are to love God with all our strength, all our mind, and all our body, and love our neighbor as ourselves. If we do this are we still in need of commandments?