Schizophrenic Christianity

[jimmyjimmy]

Discussions like this reflect a genuine issue in soteriology. Both Jesus and Paul, in different ways, talk about God as accepting us despite our unworthiness. For Jesus it’s God’s fatherly love. For Paul it’s justification by faith. But both also talk about judgement by works. The theme is more visible in Jesus’ teaching, but you can see it in Paul as well.

So how do you have justification by faith and judgement by works?

In the case of Jesus I think you have it because he doesn’t acknowledge a separation of faith and life. Faith isn't any particular work, but it's a basic direction of our lives. There’s no sign that we can merit God’s love, but still, he seems to teach that being a follower is visible in our lives.

I went through all the passages on judgement on Matthew (which has the most instances) to get a sense of how this works. First, I found that his examples of judgement didn’t include people rejected for individual sins. Instead it seemed to be actions that reflect a basic orientation of the person. The two top categories that appear in the counts were people who showed no fruit, and people who rejected the Gospel. The only other causes that appear more than once are failing to forgive and refusal to repent. Repent in Jesus’ teaching means a change of direction of one’s life, not a check to make sure that we’ve repented for every individual sin. So this isn’t judgement by works in the sense of Santa Claus’ list of whether we’ve been naughty or nice, nor whether we’ve died with any unforgiven mortal sins, but it does expect that being a follower will be visible.

I think there’s also a sign of varying reward. 1 Cor 3:12 is one concept of how judgement might work for Jesus’ followers. This assumes that the passage is intended just for followers, and isn’t an indication of universalism.

Paul uses Abraham as his illustration of faith. In context it’s pretty clear that faith in this case meant trust in God. However the only way we know that he trusted God was because he relied on God’s promise in how he acted. I doubt that Paul thought the faith was a purely mental thing, but rather a basic orientation of our lives. The Greek word, after all, can also be translated faithfulness.

I would agree with everything you've said. Works demonstrate faith in Christ. Here is the major issue for me, my salvation - my place at the table - my identity as a child of God, is either settled because He has called me His own, or it is not. If it is settled, there is at least the possibility of my experiencing joy and peace; however, if it is not settled, I have only fear and anxiety. In the former, I am free to love God and neighbor because my greatest need has been taken care of. In the latter, my works, if any, are all done from a selfish motive. I’m “loving” God and neighbor only to save my own skin.

My contention is that preaching should have the goal of building faith, not works (of course, works flow from faith). If the preacher turns our eyes toward Christ, and helps reveal our Savior to us more fully than we had previously seen Him, our faith will grow; therefore, fruit will grow. If however, the preacher/teacher turns our focus strictly toward good works, demanding them from us, we have no power in which to do the works, firstly, and secondly we will feel/experience condemnation for our failure to do so.

Christ said, "Abide in me, and you will bear good fruit".

The Christian life is one of faith. The battle is one of faith. The walk is one of faith.

 

[hedrick]

Hedrick, are you speaking in general on the human condition, without alot of scholastic precision? I can think of many cases where no response is possible, or the response is feeble or uncertain. Such as cases of disability (we've talked before about how Calvin viewed children regarding election). In those cases, I'm not sure how a message of faith and evidential works would give the kind of assurance that we tend to want in our faith. Mentally and spiritually broken people walk into churches every day. Being able to simply tell them, God accepts you as you are, not because of what you do ,but because of who God is, is a powerful message.

Obviously infants or mentally disabled are going to have trouble showing the same kinds of results as usual adults. Reformed theology generally holds that they're OK, citing Jesus' own attitude towards children and his indications that how we're judged is based on what we know, e.g. Luke 12:47. Similarly with deathbed conversions.

I claim that what Jesus is looking for is a changed orientation of our lives. How that shows depends upon lots of things, which God is in a position to judge and we aren't.

 

[hedrick]

Here is the major issue for me, my salvation - my place at the table - my identity as a child of God, is either settled because He has called me His own, or it is not.
...
My contention is that preaching should have the goal of building faith, not works.

Right. No one should preach works as a way of making us acceptable to God. But I don't think preaching should be limited to what makes us Christians. It also needs to deal with the Christian life. I'd use Jesus' own teaching as an example.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

But I don't think preaching should be limited to what makes us Christians.

I don't either.

I believe we enter in by faith, and we continue by faith, thus, the gospel is not simply the ABCs of the Christian life, but the A-Z of the Christian life. (see Colossians 2:6)

 

[sdowney717]

I don't either.

I believe we enter in by faith, and we continue by faith, thus, the gospel is not simply the ABCs of the Christian life, but the A-Z of the Christian life. (see Colossians 2:6)

Philippians 3 is a good reference to understanding the Mark 8 verses. And God is able to subdue you for your own good, v21, this is called discipline, chastisement and scourging! The LORD scourges everyone He receives. Look up scourging and you will see how unpleasant it is, but the Lord does it for our own good. Christ said He would not leave us orphaned. Fathers discipline their children, you are not your own, He owns you, and you will not be allowed to escape-get away with doing just anything.
Paul divides those in the church who walk wrongly as being doomed to destruction, in contrast with the saved, who do not have their mind on earthly things.
Hebrews 12:6
For whom the Lord loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives.”

17 Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern.

18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:

19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things.

------BREAK----------below are the saved, above are the destroyed--------

20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,

21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

As is 1 John about our walk

1 John 1:6
If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

1 John 2:6
He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

1 John 2:11
But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

 

[Tree of Life]

Hope to get some wisdom from my Reformed brethren. I will be frank, and hope get some honest answers to this question.

I've many churches, even Reformed churches, give a mixed message when it comes to salvation by grace alone, through faith alone. It disturbs my rest in Christ when a preacher takes a passage and then turns my eyes back on me. Lets's face it. There are passages that sound as if no one is really saved until his works are examined and he comes up as righteous.

Recently, I heard a sermon that had the word, Gospel, in the title, and it was based on Mark 8:

Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 35For whoever wants to save their lifeb will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me and for the gospel will save it. 36What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? 37Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? 38If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.”
​

If that's the gospel, then I clearly don't understand what the gospel is, and I'm in big trouble as well; however, I don't think it is the gospel.

I can have no peace if salvation has anything to do with my performance. Who could sleep a wink if they thought it did?!

How did the Reformers handle the NT warnings without simply dismissing them? What did they do with texts which seem as though salvation is by works?

The Reformers fully believed that the church needs to hear the warnings. Don't get me wrong, I love the gospel of pure grace. But warning passages like this do help to make sure that our grace gospel is balanced and not what Bonhoeffer called a gospel of cheap grace.

To put it in a nutshell, and I'm sure this is nothing new to you, we are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. But once we start to think critically about salvation and faith we must admit that true faith is never inactive and that our salvation is a salvation from sin - including the effects of sin on our lives in the current age. Those who are saved will be preparing themselves for the world to come by repenting of sin and striving to live lives of holiness. True faith manifests itself in love for God and for neighbor.

So these warning passages are good for us to hear so that we may constantly examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith. Because we reformed folks know that the church is a mixed bag - full of unbelievers and believers alike. True discipleship, as the above passage describes, is a laying down of our lives to obey Jesus. A true experience of the grace of Christ will manifest these things in our lives.

This does not make our obedience the foundation of our salvation. Obedience is the result of our salvation.

 

[FireDragon76]

Being a disciple of Jesus is not a burden or condemnation.

The often overlooked doctrine that makes sense of all this, is vocation. Without vocation, being a disciple could indeed seem overwhelming, if we merely focus on Law in the abstract.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

So these warning passages are good for us to hear so that we may constantly examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith.

I think that constant examination is a bad thing. If my status as a son of God is that unstable, if His love for me is so predicated on every little thing I do, I live in continual fear and uncertainty.

The gospel is the power, not the law.