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The problem is that it doesn’t say that His work is sufficient for all people. I agree that it is. What it says is that He is a propitiation for the whole world. Propitiation means that God’s wrath is satisfied. If it’s satified against all sin, then there is no reason that any should be sent to hell. It would be unjust. But we know that His wrath remains on some (John 3:36). So you can’t have His wrath both remaining on some while at the same time be satisfied against all.
Matthew 25:46can you show me a scripture that says not everyone is saved?
This is a problem you have to face, what you believe is not actually recorded in scripture while what I believe is very plainly spoken of in scripture by both Paul and John.
I think that’s the one.Just so I do not answer the wrong post is this the one you are referring to?
Last verse.noting in Mt.25 says not everyone is saved.
Last verse.
You are incorrect on that, but I know this will be a complete waste of my time. So I’m bowing out now.And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
the word is aionios, not aidios. Aidios all scholars agree means eternal. aionios means of uncertain duration and pertains to an age.
Thus they shall go away into age during correction. That correction come via the workings wrath which is the law, which is a ministration of death (to our old man nature) and our schoolmaster that leads back to Christ.
You are still saying the scapegoat is the Atonement for our sins. Thus if the scapegoat is Satan then you are saying Satan is the atonement for our sins.
I cannot help it if 1+1=2
The problem is that it doesn’t say that His work is sufficient for all people. I agree that it is.
What it says is that He is a propitiation for the whole world
Propitiation means that God’s wrath is satisfied. If it’s satified against all sin, then there is no reason that any should be sent to hell. It would be unjust. But we know that His wrath remains on some (John 3:36). So you can’t have His wrath both remaining on some while at the same time be satisfied against all.
You still can not seem to comprehend. Is there another language that you are proficient in that I can use????
NO--SATAN IS NOT THE ATONEMENT---JESUS IS!!! He died for our sins---
Satan will die for causing the sins--very simple---perhaps your parents could explain better
ONLY ONE GOAT DIES--ONLY ONE ATONEMENT NEEDED----JESUS DIED ONCE FOR ALL, NOT TWICE.
1+-0=1
10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
the word is aionios, not aidios. Aidios all scholars agree means eternal. aionios means of uncertain duration and pertains to an age.
Thus they shall go away into age during correction. That correction come via the workings wrath which is the law, which is a ministration of death (to our old man nature) and our schoolmaster that leads back to Christ.
You are incorrect on that, but I know this will be a complete waste of my time. So I’m bowing out now.
Look at the highlight.
The scriptures say the scapegoat makes atonement so unless Satan makes atonement for us then the scapegoat must be Jesus.
Lev 16:9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD'S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.
Lev 16:10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.
Only 1 goat shed blood for sin.
Two goats representing ONE sacrifice.
You don't seem to understand that they could not use one goat to represent the atonement because then nothing could be shown for the taking away of sin. they needed TWO goat in order to do that.
And the scapegoat is for ATONEMENT, thus must represent Christ. so you can keep your unbiblical stance that Satan is the scapegoat if you prefer but I doubt anyone else will agree with you.
No one has to agree with me--this is not a contest. Both views have adherents. We will each agree to keep our own views on this. Neither view, actually, is unbiblical.
How can the death of the one goat not be sufficient to portray the removal of sin as there was only one Jesus and one death needed. His death alone removes sin from us---what else did Jesus have to do to remove sins? Was His blood not enough? I still do not see how you have explained the need for 2 when it says that Jesus died once for all and without the shedding of blood there is no removal of sin and the 2nd goat did not shed blood.
No both views are not biblical because Satan has NO PART in our ATONEMENT
and yet scapegoat is for ATONEMENT, and because of your lack of understanding scripture you make Satan a part of the ATONEMENT.
Have you never read that we are reconciled (this is the atonement of the dead goat) by His death but saved by His life (this is the scapegoat that takes away ALL sin)
LOL--And here I was trying to cut you some slack.
Do you not realize it is Jesus Himself, as our High Priest, who will place all the sins that He paid for on the head of Satan, just as the High Priest placed all the sins of the slain goat on the head of the scapegoat?
Satan blares the blame for al sin
Jesus paid the price. It is biblical, and a correct understanding of the sanctuary service. Believe what you want.
Dave, since you are familiar with the Talmud, I was told many years ago that the early Jewish writings did not consider the sin sacrifices as being replacements for them (the bag of flour, doves, lambs or goats were not taking their place), but I have not found that myself do you have anything on that either way?Read all about it in the Talmuds.
Why does everyone say when I state something recorded in Jewish history it is just "speculation?"
If these goats are to represent Christ’s atoning sacrifice (which they do) why are they both or either not slowly tortured to death?Leviticus 16:5-10
5 And he shall take of the congregation of the children of Israel two kids of the goats for a sin offering, and one ram for a burnt offering. 6 And Aaron shall offer his bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and make an atonement for himself, and for his house. 7 And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. 8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat. 9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD’S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering. 10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.
Leviticus 16:15-22
15 Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat: 16 And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness. 17 And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel. 18 And he shall go out unto the altar that is before the LORD, and make an atonement for it; and shall take of the blood of the bullock, and of the blood of the goat, and put it upon the horns of the altar round about. 19 And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it, and hallow it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel.
20 And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat: 21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: 22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.
Lets take a look at the two goats and who they represent.
Take note of what it says in verse 5 two kids of the goats for a sin offering. The two goats constituted ONE sin offering. Therefore the two goats represent ONE man , JESUS CHRIST.
So lets look at how both goats represent Jesus Christ.
. 9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD’S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.
10But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.
The first goat shows us that Jesus Christ died for our sins, the scapegoat shows us that Jesus Christ made atonement for us and now we stand without sin before God in Christ. The scapegoat shows us that we are resurrected with Christ. The reason that two goats were used was because the one goat was killed (Jesus Christ dying on the cross) and one goat (the scapegoat) represents the resurrected Lord, for Jesus Christ must both die and be resurrected in order for our atonement.
Nu.29:11 speaks of this.
Numbers 29:11
11ONE kid of the goats for a SIN OFFERING; beside the SIN OFFERING of ATONEMENT, and the continual burnt offering, and the meat offering of it, and their drink offerings.
Heb.9:15-28 brings this out very well, lets look at it.
Hebrews 9:15-28
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. 18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. 19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. 21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away SIN BY THE SACRIFICE OF HIMSELF. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Note that there is only ONE sacrifice mentioned here , not two, the two goats represent Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 3:18
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1 John 2:2
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
The word PROPITIATION means ATONEMENT , and the goat killed and the scapegoat was for the ATONEMENT of the world. This show us that the two goats are a representation of Jesus Christ.
John 1:29
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which TAKETH AWAY the sin of the world.
This clearly show that the two goats in reference to Jesus Christ, and as the scapegoat took the sins of all upon its head, even as our head (Jesus Christ) took the sins of all upon himself.
You cannot separate the two goats, they must represent the same person or you make someone other than Jesus Christ our ATONEMENT.
Leviticus 16:30
For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD.
The problem is evil. Gods wrath is satisfied for ALL sin, but we still have the problem of evil........self justification,self-righteousness,human good.If it’s satified against all sin, then there is no reason that any should be sent to hell. It would be unjust. But we know that His wrath remains on some (John 3:36).
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