Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

JacksBratt · Apr 21, 2020

martymonster said:
Why would you use Bundy, Manson and Hitler as examples? Do you think that they are anymore deserving of eternal torment than you?

Nope... I used them due to the simple fact that it is no question that these people were no worthy of salvation as it is obvious that they never choose to follow Christ..

All are deserving of Hell.. Yes... me, my grandmother, my daughter... my wife.. However, we have accepted Christ and His blood covers our iniquities.... Due to the simple fact that we accepted that He was who He said that He was...

Those others are just examples of the worst..

So... answer the question and stop picking at the examples... stop deflecting.

Saint Steven · Apr 21, 2020

JacksBratt said:
Ok... so.... We are all just little robots that God controls.. like the rest of His universe?

OR... we are created beings who He wishes to have a relationship with but.. He doesn't want to just create a bunch of minions...He created beings with free will and only wants a relationship with those that have been given the chance to choose... and choose Him....

Otherwise.. the whole gospel is a waste of time and a joke..

The universe runs like a well tuned machine.. as it was designed..

However, those that will inhabit it for eternity... They have to choose to do so..Or.. reject it and choose not to follow their creator and deny Him.. They will die and not partake of the paradise prepared for those that have proven to love God.

We in the church have been raised with this idea that if we "reject" God he will torch us for all eternity.

That sounds more like a gangster godfather than our heavenly Father. To me anyway.
Is the gospel "an offer we can't refuse"? (believe, or burn) Because God loves you and wants what is best for you.

This video does a great job of explaining the difference between these two gospels.

Brad Jersak's 2015 version of the Gospel in Chairs, originally composed by Fr. Anthony Carbo and borrowed by others like Steve Robinson and Brian Zahnd (who retitled it 'The Beautiful Gospel').

martymonster · Apr 21, 2020

JacksBratt said:
I feel like you are talking in circles...

What is "knowing God". Satan knows God.. the demons "know God" the fallen angels "know God".. Yet they are cast into the lake of fire and will be destroyed.

Are you saying that someone like Bundy, Manson, Hitler.... will spend a bit of time in Hell but when death is destroyed.. they will live eternally in paradise?

There is knowing someone superficially, and then there is knowing someone intimately.

After Bundy, Manson, and Hitler are refined in the fire, they will come out resembling Christ, and God will be all in all. As for some fabled paradise, where you get to do your favourite thing all day every day, that is an invention of the church. Scripture teaches no such thing.

Saint Steven · Apr 21, 2020

For many years now multitudes of preachers and people in the Churches would have us believe that God has been in this great work of the ages for the short period of about 6,000 years. They tell us that in this day God is about to become so disgusted with the whole mess that He is going to close it down, take a few saints away to some far off heaven somewhere, and give up on the rest of the creation, the work of His love. What a WEAK God some folk have and worship! They worship a God who CHANGES, one who in the beginning did start out to bring about a glorious end, but somewhere along the line lost control of the situation and has now thrown up His hands in despair and decided to destroy the whole thing and be satisfied with a little handful for Himself for all eternity. What great pity I feel for such people and for the god they serve! For this is going to put their god in the unenviable position of being filled with regret throughout all eternity because He was not able to carry out His purpose, and He will have to always remember that over in the hell He created is the vast majority of His creation suffering the tortures of the damned for ever and ever. What a prospect for God and His creation! If God knew in the beginning that it would turn out like this and included eternal damnation in His creative plans, then why did He create the world in the first place? Better to have forgotten the whole creation in the beginning! And if God DID NOT know this from the beginning, THEN HE IS NOT GOD.

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

Saint Steven · Apr 21, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
Do you really have that little faith in Jesus, that he'd smash ppl forever where they failed to do those works? Guess the philanthropic murderers who run the world would get a pass. Could it be that you're misunderstanding the purpose of the scripture? I take it, for instance, that you've not cut off hand or eye? So why read 25:46 so prejudicially and literally? What happened to getting out after paying the uttermost farthing?

And why does Jesus have to be cast as a psycho who'll 'turns on ya' and unleashes unimaginable torments for non-compliance? It's only there, in a handful of disparate scriptures, if you want it to be. God in the hands of angry sinners lol.

It seems like the gospel of Damnationism is that Jesus saves us from God.
That when God comes in his wrath to find us, Jesus steps in to protect us.

Shrewd Manager · Apr 21, 2020

To know Him is to love Him, as the saying goes. And those who don't want a part of it will ultimately get introduced by way of fire and the Spirit. Even the stone-cold heart of a Genrikh Yagoda will melt.

martymonster · Apr 21, 2020

Saint Steven said:
It seems like the gospel of Damnationism is that Jesus saves us from God.
That when God comes in his wrath to find us, Jesus steps in to protect us.

Yeah, Jesus is the good guy. LOL!

martymonster · Apr 21, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
To know Him is to love Him, as the saying goes. And those who don't want a part of it will ultimately get introduced by way of fire and the Spirit. Even the stone-cold heart of a Genrikh Yagoda will melt.

It's honestly hard to imagine, but with God, all things are possible.

Shrewd Manager · Apr 21, 2020

martymonster said:
It's honestly hard to imagine, but with God, all things are possible.

Sure, but even if someone hasn't yet received personal revelation, so that they know something of God's power and glory, they can read about it in the Bible, perhaps the classic case being the little incident on the Damascus Highway in Acts 9.

BNR32FAN · Apr 21, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Jesus was sent with one mission to accomplish. Did he succeed, or did he fail?

This question is addressed in the book
The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby

Here's the opening paragraph below to get you started.
I will continue to post paragraphs for discussion as we go.

AMONG all the questions that men have asked, there is one that is of supreme interest and importance. Why are we here? What is our destiny? What lies beyond the grave for the Christian, for the unbeliever? For old, for young? For our fellow citizens, and for the teeming masses in far-away lands serving strange gods? These questions were raised by one of the great poets of all times. I am speaking now of that American genius of letters, Edgar Allen Poe - an incomparable genius, and yet a man whose life was destroyed by unbelief. Millions of people have read his masterpiece, "The Raven," but few, I am afraid, have ever grasped the real spiritual significance of the struggle that was going on in the soul of this man. He asked four very significant questions - questions which every living soul, at one, time or another, must raise to God. First, Is there a God who comforts? Is there a God who can assuage the pain of life? (In this case it is the poignant pain of the loss of a loved one, his beloved Lenore.) Is there "some water from the river of paradise, the water of Nephenthe," which can take away the heartache that is driving him insane? Secondly, he asks, Is there really a Christ? Does He live? Is there a balm in Gilead? Is there One who can smoothe the wrinkled brow and soften the hard heart? Thirdly, he asks, Is there some place, some heaven, some distant Eden or future world where we shall be joined again with our loved ones? And, finally, Is there any hope that the darkness and hopelessness and despair of this life will be lifted? But always he directs his questions to his own unbelief which is personified in that grim and ghastly raven, a picture of doubt and unbelief. A few years after writing those chilling words, Poe became insane. Regaining his sanity, he drank himself to death, and this genius was found dead in the gutter.

Source: Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

Audio version: By J. Preston Eby Audio – Kingdom Resources

This is presuming that God’s intention was for Christ to save everyone who ever lived. That may not be the case. I’m confident that you know that the word world does not always include all inhabitants of the world but can refer to a certain group in the world.

Saint Steven · Apr 21, 2020

martymonster said:
Yeah, Jesus is the good guy. LOL!

And what does that say about God? - wow ???

Saint Steven said: ↑
It seems like the gospel of Damnationism is that Jesus saves us from God.
That when God comes in his wrath to find us, Jesus steps in to protect us.

Saint Steven · Apr 21, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
Sure, but even if someone hasn't yet received personal revelation, so that they know something of God's power and glory, they can read about it in the Bible, perhaps the classic case being the little incident on the Damascus Highway in Acts 9.

Right.

1 Timothy 1:15
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.

JacksBratt · Apr 21, 2020

Saint Steven said:
More good questions. Thanks.
Damnationists. (and/or Anihilationists) As opposed to Universal Restorationists.

It's not as cut and dried as that.
The Elect are chosen, by definition. And no one can come to God unless He draws them.
But we choose to follow as well. Even daily to take up our cross. And moment by moment. Life comes at us fast. How will we respond?

And I think there is a wider spectrum of responses than either "accept" or "reject". It's more complex than a one time on/off switch. And what does it mean to reject Christ? And how many have even had the opportunity? I think you addressed this pretty well in a previous post. (about salvation)

Marty made mention of the firstfruits. That's a good thing to introduce at this point.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

So, you are a "universal restorationist"?

You believe that all will be in paradise.. sooner or later?

Saint Steven · Apr 21, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
This is presuming that God’s intention was for Christ to save everyone who ever lived. That may not be the case. I’m confident that you know that the word world does not always include all inhabitants of the world but can refer to a certain group in the world.

You seem to be presuming that sending countless billions to eternal torment was a reasonable plan.

Saint Steven · Apr 21, 2020

JacksBratt said:
So, you are a "universal restorationist"?

You believe that all will be in paradise.. sooner or later?

In a word, "Yes."
I also believe we will all go through the fire. Me and you. (everyone)
Jesus said...

Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.

renniks · Apr 21, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
Do you really have that little faith in Jesus, that he'd smash ppl forever where they failed to do those works? Guess the philanthropic murderers who run the world would get a pass. Could it be that you're misunderstanding the purpose of the scripture? I take it, for instance, that you've not cut off hand or eye? So why read 25:46 so prejudicially and literally? What happened to getting out after paying the uttermost farthing?

And why does Jesus have to be cast as a psycho who'll 'turns on ya' and unleashes unimaginable torments for non-compliance? It's only there, in a handful of disparate scriptures, if you want it to be. God in the hands of angry sinners lol.

It's a lot more than a handful of scriptures and they make no sense if not taken literally.

Shrewd Manager · Apr 21, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Right.

1 Timothy 1:15
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.

Chief of sinners. Saved. New heart, new eyes, beautiful feet.

renniks · Apr 21, 2020

JacksBratt said:
That's all riddles..

Do we, as Christians, who have chosen to believe on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ... Live forever in a conscious state in a paradise with our creator.. for ever and ever?

Do those who are sinners and never repent.. like Manson.. like Hitler... Like Fred the jerk on the block who couldn't give a crap about anything and curses God.. criticizes you for believing in Him... Do these all end up in paradise as well?

If those ended up in paradise it sure would not be paradise anymore. Can you imagine living with the person who was your tormenter in life for all eternity? It's a gift that God doesn't allow this to happen, but gives the mockers what they wanted, separation from him.

JacksBratt · Apr 21, 2020

Saint Steven said:
We in the church have been raised with this idea that if we "reject" God he will torch us for all eternity.

That sounds more like a gangster godfather than our heavenly Father. To me anyway.
Is the gospel "an offer we can't refuse"? (believe, or burn) Because God loves you and wants what is best for you.

This video does a great job of explaining the difference between these two gospels.

Brad Jersak's 2015 version of the Gospel in Chairs, originally composed by Fr. Anthony Carbo and borrowed by others like Steve Robinson and Brian Zahnd (who retitled it 'The Beautiful Gospel').

"Believe or Burn"??

No, it's more like..

We are sinners.. We are not righteous.. Unrighteous beings cannot exist in the presence of God.. period.. impossible.

However, even though all have sinned and all are not worthy and none can do anything of themselves (which means that I cannot possibly do anything to save myself)... All are not going to be able to exist in God's presence..

So, One person paid the penalty... One person who was not deserving.. paid my price...
Therefore, Christ, who paid the price.. offers me the one who deserved it, a pardon.

Say you owed a fine for littering... It was $1,000,000,000,000.00
If you cannot pay the fine.. you have to go to jail for life.. till you're dead.

Obviously you cannot pay it and you are going to die in prison.

However, someone who does have the money to pay the fine.. pays it for you.. All you have to do is believe that He will.

You are set free of none of your own doing...

That... is the gospel..

We are all damned by the simple fact that we are not righteous and only righteousness can exist in the presence of God.

Christ's blood makes us righteous.
You cannot be covered by the blood of someone you don't acknowledge as existing. Or if you deny and don't accept the pardon.. OR reject Him..

At what point do these people gain their righteousness?

Shrewd Manager · Apr 21, 2020

renniks said:
It's a lot more than a handful of scriptures and they make no sense if not taken literally.

Actually there's around a dozen 'go-to' scriptures relied on in support of eternal damnation. And I'd certainly dispute they make no sense if not taken literally, and further, that they make any sense if taken literally.

Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

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