Saving everyone, or not... (christians)

[dan00000]

Ok, I'm not starting an arguement, also I don't want you guys to argue with eachother either. Also, if you quote the bible, please accompany it with a narrative of your own on the context you are reading it in.

Ok, the deciples of christ were given powers to do things... Jesus said they could do anything with faith, even move mountains. A lot of people take that figuratively, however if it is to the jot and tittle, and we take a six day creation (some of us) literally then why not this? Especially in the context of Jesus and the deciples given the power to heal and drive out evils... Now, no one goes around using psychokenesis even an anthill even if they are die hard for Jesus... so I'm thinking that human faith is really, in the grand scheme, practically nothing. Why? Because even the deciples had weak moments, even John in prision second guessed Jesus... I'm not saying this as like a "a ha, see, nyaa nyaa"... I'm just saying the guy is human and in an understandable bad situation and maybe had a weak moment. Overall what I'm asking is our belief really an arbitrary thing? I mean, you get saved by more or less confronting the fact that you're awful, full of sin, and are forgiven.... why does this not apply to unbelievers. Since the triumph of Jesus was victory over sin, was it not also for John's subsequent momentary disbelief, as well as our inability to move mountains by any amount of faith that we have? For those who never personally met Jesus (I know I know, "I've met him") phsically, or seen him do anything... why is disbelief grounds for condemnation? If momentary is ok, why not overall "I don't know"...

 

[Serapha]

Ok, I'm not starting an arguement, also I don't want you guys to argue with eachother either. Also, if you quote the bible, please accompany it with a narrative of your own on the context you are reading it in.

Ok, the deciples of christ were given powers to do things... Jesus said they could do anything with faith, even move mountains. A lot of people take that figuratively, however if it is to the jot and tittle, and we take a six day creation (some of us) literally then why not this?

Hi there!



Let me introduce you to a literal interpretation of "moving mountains".

​

Matthew 21:21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

Have you ever imagined that mountain mentioned in the Bible actually being moved? At the time of this discourse, Jesus was talking to His disciples on the Mount of Olives, 2750 feet above sea level. Bear with me as I give you a description of what the disciples saw as Jesus talked and walked with them on the Mount of Olives.

The Mount of Olives faces across the Kidron Valley from Jerusalem. But the Mount of Olives is higher than Jerusalem. When Jesus was talking, the disciples could see all of Jerusalem and beyond. On a very clear day, one could see Herodium, Herod's palace eight miles southeast of Jerusalem. The distance was such that they could use mirrors to communicate signals from Jerusalem to Herodium and onward to Herod's palace at Masada.

Are you familiar with Herodium? It was two hills before Herod chose to build his palace there. But, when Herod decided to build there, he first built a mountain out of the hill to elevate the palace. He literally had tons of dirt physically moved to elevate the area to a height of over 2400 feet and to put it in alignment between Jerusalem and Masada. He had one hill moved and placed on the top of the second hill.

What did the disciples see in the distance when Jesus asked them if they had the faith to see mountains moved?

They saw a mountain that had been moved. Who would question their faith concerning moving mountains? no one.

So, to answer your question(s)

Phl 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

~serapha~

 

[dan00000]

Link me to some refs, pls, also any thoughts on the rest?

 

[Rafael]

Ok, I'm not starting an arguement, also I don't want you guys to argue with eachother either. Also, if you quote the bible, please accompany it with a narrative of your own on the context you are reading it in.

Ok, the deciples of christ were given powers to do things... Jesus said they could do anything with faith, even move mountains. A lot of people take that figuratively, however if it is to the jot and tittle, and we take a six day creation (some of us) literally then why not this? Especially in the context of Jesus and the deciples given the power to heal and drive out evils... Now, no one goes around using psychokenesis even an anthill even if they are die hard for Jesus... so I'm thinking that human faith is really, in the grand scheme, practically nothing. Why? Because even the deciples had weak moments, even John in prision second guessed Jesus... I'm not saying this as like a "a ha, see, nyaa nyaa"... I'm just saying the guy is human and in an understandable bad situation and maybe had a weak moment. Overall what I'm asking is our belief really an arbitrary thing? I mean, you get saved by more or less confronting the fact that you're awful, full of sin, and are forgiven.... why does this not apply to unbelievers. Since the triumph of Jesus was victory over sin, was it not also for John's subsequent momentary disbelief, as well as our inability to move mountains by any amount of faith that we have? For those who never personally met Jesus (I know I know, "I've met him") phsically, or seen him do anything... why is disbelief grounds for condemnation? If momentary is ok, why not overall "I don't know"...

Yeah, that's why the Bible rings true, not hiding the weaknesses of diciples or characters in scripture. People have weak moments and strong times, as well, in their faith. It is ultimately the faith of Jesus that saves us, and the life He lived. God knows the choices man will make before they are born and are in the womb, because of His omniscience and power over time and eternity, but the choice is made, nevertheless, as each persom bears the responsibility for their own choice to receive or refuse the gift of life. Why? Well, the pride of life, egotism, and arrogance has destroyed many a man, leading them to ultimate ruin.
The sense of ones sinfulness and powerlessness over sin is a humbling thing to experience, and sometimes the proud will have none of it or the gift that goes along with it.

 

[MinDach]

I mean, you get saved by more or less confronting the fact that you're awful, full of sin, and are forgiven....

This is a hard one to explain, alot of people look at sin this way. If I could explain it this way, I hope I come across. Sin came in to ALL the world. By one Man. So no one is really a bigger sinner then the next guy, in Gods eyes. We are Born it to it. Then God said the wages of Sin is death. So we die. Now God gave us a way out of the second Death, that was Jesus, he died in our place. Having Faith is a growing process, you do not move mountians over night. Even Jesus had to grow and suffer , and even learn
for 29 years, before he did his first miracles, and healing. Jesus had to be born a man, just like Adam. Jesus was the second Adam. He was Man, God, Spirit. So what I am saying is when Jesus was born, he had to be just like Adam. Other wise it would of not worked. Jesus would of been cheating, because Adam did not have same power as Jesus.

 

[Serapha]

Link me to some refs, pls, also any thoughts on the rest?

Hi there!



what do you wish to have referenced?


and back to the original statement...

"Jesus said they could do anything with faith, even move mountains. A lot of people take that figuratively, however if it is to the jot and tittle, and we take a six day creation (some of us) literally then why not this? Especially in the context of Jesus and the deciples given the power to heal and drive out evils..."


If you had the faith to believe that by grace, Jesus saved you in the past, why don't you believe that Jesus has enough grace to keep you saved until the day of His coming? As Christians, we have the infilling of the Holy Spirit to help keep us from sin... but we also can have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that empowers us to do the will of God. If it is God's will that one be healed, and God choses you to be the instrument of His healing, then by your faith that God will heal, the person is healed.

In the same context, by being an instrument of faith and by the empowerment of the Holy Spirit, people can do the will of God. in every facet of life.

~serapha~

 

[pmarquette]

go and read some articles by " mountain mover's " at www.cfaith.com

What are our mountains ? Situations , circumstances , attitudes , offenses ,
trials , sickness .... speak God's word to them , to yourself , as in Isaiah 55.10
refreshing your heart with the solution instead of the problem ....

Jesus gave gifts to men , for service , to go and do the work of the gospel ;
if you do not believe in the gifts ( 1 Cor 12 ) won't work ( Heb. 11.1,6 );
if you speak , take a step of faith and expect ( 1 John 5.14-18 ) you will
see some progress ...

some mountains move a teaspoon at a time , some a bucket full , some a
truck load , very few of us have the special gift of " faith and miracles "
where the mountain disappears immediately ...

look at and consider Malachi 3.10 and 1 John 4.1 " test and see "
have you tried to speak to the mountains in your life with faith
and expectancy ?

 

[Reformationist]

Since the triumph of Jesus was victory over sin, was it not also for John's subsequent momentary disbelief, as well as our inability to move mountains by any amount of faith that we have? For those who never personally met Jesus (I know I know, "I've met him") phsically, or seen him do anything... why is disbelief grounds for condemnation? If momentary is ok, why not overall "I don't know"...

Christ's death atoned for all of the sins of His elect, even their moments of disbelief, which all Christians occasionally suffer from. Disbelief is a sin. Many wish to catagorize sin in an effort to make sense of their other misunderstandings of Scripture. The Truth of Scripture is that the Lord Jesus hath atoned for the sins of God's chosen and appeased His wrath against them, once for all.

The pivitol thing that must be acknowledged is that Christ's purpose in dying was not to atone for the sins of all mankind. We must either limit the intent of Christ's death or the power of His death. Reformed Christians, like myself, understand the Word of God in light of His glorious holiness. We humbly acknowledge that whatsoever God ordains shall come to pass. We do not limit the value of His obedience unto death; rather, we limit His purpose in dying. With the knowledge of his authority over all things in Heaven and earth we must, then, acknowledge that if some are not saved then it wasn't something that happened outside of His providence. Had God wanted to apply the saving work of Christ to all mankind who would stand against Him? Some would seek to dillute His purpose by claiming that God, in fact, does accomplish His Will, but His will was to merely provide us the opportunity for salvation.

So, we who are/will be saved are saved by the grace of God and remain saved by the power of God, even through our "seasons of unbelief." Those who will never be saved are not subject to injustice. All have fallen short and earned their place as His enemy and they get justice. We who are saved get mercy. No one suffers any injustice from God.

God bless