Saved without being baptized?

[QuantaCura]

People keep saying, "It's Christ who saves, not baptism." This is a false dichotomy. Christ has instituted Baptism as the means through which the grace He has merited should be applied to us.

 

[S Walch]

He who has ears, let him hear...

Seeing as though I'm reading what you're typing, it's hard for me to hear..

Well, let's actually read the passage, shall we?:

They had been baptised into John, not Jesus, as the scripture clearly and explicitly states. Are you BLIND? ILLITERATE? [/size][/color][/font]Or merely STUBBORN?

How about I'm neither of those eh? You need to stop saying untrue things about me - Don't see me insulting you because you're not agreeing with what I'm saying do you

1) They were baptized into John (which was NOT a Christian baptism!).
2) Paul tells them that John's baptism was only a foreshadow of Jesus.
3) Then they were baptized into Jesus' name.
4) Then they received the Holy Spirit.

This is very clear and cannot be disputed.

They weren't again BAPTISED with water - they were baptised via teh Holy Spirit.

Point three and 4 are the exact same.

Should have been Acts 22:16, my bad...(i"M a trerblie tpyist!) "Be baptized and wash away your sins."

Didn't know water could wash away my sins - so all I have to do to wash away my sins is have a bath? W00t!

You continue to misunderstand Acts 11. That passage is about Peter's prejudice concerning Gentiles; it has NOTHING to do with him misunderstanding baptism or the role of the Holy Spirit.

Yes it is, you can CLEARLY see that from his words.

"THEN I REMEMBERED" How much cleary can the man put his words!

1) It's by Grace through faith, not "faith through grace"
2) When did I EVER say "water saves us"???? NEVER!

Not only can you not read Scripture and understand it, you can't read my posts without misunderstanding....

You are saying water baptism is a requirement to save us - this is to me indicating that you believe it's because of the water that we are then baptised via the holy spirit

Am I miss-reading you there?

There is only ONE baptism. (Eph 4)

Yes - the baptism of Jesus - the Baptism of the Holy Spirit

Uh, yeah..."washing of rebirth" He's talking about baptism, folks. WATER BAPTISM. Only fools deny it. And , oh, my, how you conveniently skipped over Ephesians 5:26...where Paul makes it clear because he uses the word "water"! Please. That Titus and Ephesians are speaking of the same event is proved by the fact that Paul uses the term "loutron" (washing) in both cases.

To use the actual greek of the verse - It should read like this, which the NIV just doesn't seem to have done:

"...having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word."

"Water with the word" Did you know the word was water?

Whatever washing is happening in Titus, it is undeniably the same as that of Ephesians, which was with water. The word Paul uses here is the word from which we get our word "lavoratory". The clear implication is that washng involves water. There is no intelligent or Scriptural way to deny it.

(And of course, we all know (don't we?) that sometimes even baptizo is translated as "wash" !! See Mark 7:4, where Jesus is talking about "baptizing" the pots and pans!)

In Acts 22:16 (quoted above) Ananais tells Paul to rise and be baptized to "wash away" his sins. The word is the same word used in Eph 5 and Titus 3: therefore it HAS TO REFER TO WATER BAPTISM. (And 1 Corinthians 6:11 is also a reference to water baptism!)

Or, washing by the Holy Spirit maybe?

Clearly you are unfamiliar with the OT.

Quite possibly - But I don't see what that has to do with this whether I'm familier with the OT or not - We've done nothing but quote NT so that's hwer i'm gonna stay.

That one is almost too funny to be true...you don't even know what water he's talking about, do you? Go back and actually READ the passage.

It is the water of noah's flood which is the symbol of our baptism! Let me introduce you to a new word: CONTEXT! Please, take the time to find a dictionary and look it up.

Please learn to be able to talk to people without insulting them every post you make.

I know it was the water of Noah's flood - I'm not an idiot thank you very much, I'm just not agreeing with your interpretation of the verses.

No. They are ALL (every single one of those passages) speaking of water baptism, in which we receive the Holy Sprirt. Whenever Paul uses the word "wash" he means "water baptism" (with the obvious exception of 1 Tim 5); his readers could have taken it no other way. Nor can we.

No it isn't. JTB clear states what Jesus Baptism is - the Holy spirit - Not the Holy spirit through water.

There is ONE faith, ONE baptism (not two!), and ONE Lord. Amen.

Exactly - Baptism of the holy spirit - not water.

 

[KEPLER]

Oneshot,

Again, nice reply, BUT....

I don't think you grasp the weight of the "have been baptized" in Romans 6:3-4. It is--

1) In the past
2) In it ( and you quote all the right verses!) we have been "clothed with Christ." (See also Titus 3, Eph 5:25-6, and Rev 1:5)
3) It is a "done deal." God has accomplished the job of crediting us with Christ's righteousness in baptism.
4) It therefore "closes the book" on justification.
5) Sanctification is rooted in our justification, which is why Paul is looking back to baptism when he begins his discussion on sanctification.

It's all God's work, not ours. Even our sanctification is ultimately God's good work in us. We struggle with sin. We are justified. That's just what we have to expect this side of Glory.

We are (as the reformers said) Simul Justus et peccator: simultaneously justified and sinful.

 

[KEPLER]

S Walch,

I get hot under the collar. I YELL. It's wrong. I apologize.

Eric

 

[S Walch]

S Walch,

I get hot under the collar. I YELL. It's wrong. I apologize.

Eric

Apology accepted

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this baptism position I guess lol..

 

[KEPLER]

I can't see any way around these:

1) Paul's use of the phrase "water with the word" in Eph 5:26 establishes two absolutely clear things:

a) When he says "wash" he's talking about water baptism.
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b) Water -- in and of itself -- is useless. It is water with the word that counts.
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2) The word "baptism" in Acts 2:38, 10:47, 19:4-6 and 22:16 is speaking of water baptism.

3) Peter's explanation (in Acts 11) of his actions in Acts 10 are to be interpreted thus:

a) Peter apparently didn't want to take the word to Gentiles
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b) God told him to, saying "Don't call unclean the things I have declared clean." (10:9-16)
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c) Peter at first "didn't get" the vision (10:17), but finally realizes what it means after speaking with COrnelius (10:28-29)
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d) Upon arrival, Peter preached and the other Jews (i.e. "believers from among the circumcised") saw that EVEN THE GENTILES could receive the Holy Spirit. (10:44-46)
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e) Peter realizes that this is the fulfillment of the message he received in vss. 7-10
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f) The OTHER JEWS realize that God will not withhold His Spirit from the Gentiles, and understand the error of not wanting to preach to them. (this is verses 16 & 17: "Who was I to stand in God's way?")
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g) AFTER acknowledging the error, THEN Peter proceeded to baptize them WITH WATER. (10:47 --"Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" 48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.)
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h) In granting the Gentiles the Holy Spirit prior to water baptism, God demonstrated to the "believers among the circumcized" (JEWS) that His calling was going out to the entire world. (In other words, "If God is going to circumvent us by giving the Gentiles the Holy Spirit, we may as well just go and do it the way it should be done, so, c'mon guys, let's baptize them.") Once they understood this, they baptized the Gentiles with water.
​

i) This passage is ONLY about the Jews' prejudice against the Gentiles. It is about NOTHING else.
​

I think this is the only logical way Acts 10 & 11 may be interpreted.

I highly suggest you get a good commentary on Acts. The ones by F.F. Bruce (one of your fellow Mancunians, if I'm not mistaken...) are BY FAR the best.

Here's a good one from Amazon

 

[QuantaCura]

Apology accepted

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this baptism position I guess lol..

Has any discussion on GT ever ended any differently?

 

[KEPLER]

Has any discussion on GT ever ended any differently?

Well, it's much better than me taking up my copy of Luther's Small Catechism, flying to Manchester and beating him about the head and shoulders...

On the other hand, I'm long overdue for a trip back to the Ryland's Library, and just the thought of the "Curry Mile" makes my mouth water.....hmmm...

 

[Normann]

No, Norman. "Eis" does not mean "because of".

Sorry but it seems you have not studied properly. My information is from Strongs Greek/Hebrew Exhaustive Dictionary and I have double, even triple checked it. With a degree in this wonderful book we call the Bible and after some 50 years I also find many scriptures to confirm that water baptism does not save us.

IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

 

[Normann]

Actually, imho, the only thing required to baptize someone is to be a fellow beleiver. Nothing says it has to be a minister. Believers baptized other believers. In my church, a family member can do the baptizing, it doesn't have to be the pastor.

You are correct, I find no passage requiring that one be a "Minister" to baptize. The reality is that when we are born again we are all ministers in some degree.

IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

 

[HeyJupiter]

so what if you have every intention of doing it and then u die before u get to?

 

[michaelmonfre]

is baptism considered a work or an act of faith? WHY IS BAPTISM SO IMPORTANT IN THE NEW TESTAMENT IF SALVATION WAS NOT THE ISSUE? BAPTISM IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWED A PROFESSION IN FAITH WHEREAS WHEN PEOPLE ACCEPT CHRIST THEY ARE IN NO HURRY TO GET BAPTIZED DUE TO LACK OF KNOWLEDGE OR THEY DON'T CARE.

CAN SOMEONE BE A TRUE CHRISTIAN AFTER BEING TOLD ABOUT WHAT BAPTISM MEANS ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE AND THE CHRISTIAN REFUSES TO IDENTIFY WITH CHRIST? THIS IS A CONTRADICTION. WHY DOES BAPTISM DEFINED AS A WORK?

TO SOMEONE IN THE CHURCH OF CHRIST GETTING BAPTIZED IS A ACT OF FAITH.

 

[KEPLER]

so what if you have every intention of doing it and then u die before u get to?

Belinda...read carefully the prior posts. Everyone here (except the person who wrote the pamphlet quoted in the OP) agrees that in the situation you describe, that person is nevertheless saved!

Eric

 

[HeyJupiter]

Belinda...read carefully the prior posts. Everyone here (except the person who wrote the pamphlet quoted in the OP) agrees that in the situation you describe, that person is nevertheless saved!

Eric

cooll thanks

 

[Theophorus]

What is the 1st thing that Christ did prior to proclaimimg the kingdom of heaven and selecting his apostles? It is recorded in all 4 Gospels. Even the greates prophet did not understand the need, but the author and finisher of faith started with this mystery, as did the apostles. As have all people of the way for centuries.

 

[NeoGRizzly]

we need to get baptized on the reason that Jesus said so.

we need baptized Look what happens he
Mar 1:10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
Mar 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven, [saying], Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Mar 1:12 And immediately the Spirit driveth him into the wilderness.

not saying that was not saved (if it could happen ) jesus did other stuff before then but this is where he really gets started.

I don't know if you would be rejected, hey i don't want to be the first one to find out by testing it.

 

[KEPLER]

Sorry but it seems you have not studied properly. My information is from Strongs Greek/Hebrew Exhaustive Dictionary and I have double, even triple checked it. With a degree in this wonderful book we call the Bible and after some 50 years I also find many scriptures to confirm that water baptism does not save us.

IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

Normann, with all due respect to a Christian brother....

1) You can double, triple or even check 100 times over...if the ink is dry, I wouldn't expect a book to say something different at any time. That's not much of an argument....

2) Sad to say, but this is a clear case of the editors of Strong's putting their theologically-biased cart before the Scriptual horse. Too bad, it's an otherwise useful tool.


If 'eis' means "because of" please explain to us why there is not a single instance in the NT of 'eis' ever being translated that way?

No, my friend, 'eis' takes the accustaive and means "into", "unto", "for the purpose". "Because of" would require a dative or ablative.

If you would like better Greek study material, I suggest the following (link leads to Amazon.com)

NT Greek for Beginners, by J. Gresham Machen

Jesus said in Matthew 26:28 that his "blood would be shed 'eis' the forgiveness of sins". How do we translate 'eis' here? Do you really mean to say that we should say Jesus was crucified because of the forgiveness of sins??? I think not.

I know, I know, now you're going to say..."If Jesus's blood is for the forgiveness of sins (Matt 26:28), then how can baptism be for the forgiveness of sins?(Acts 2:38) Ha! I got you there!"

Not really...

As I've stated in my posts before, Baptism is NOT our action. Baptism belongs to God. (That's why it must be done in His name!) It is the Holy Spirit who baptizes us through the water (Eph 5:25-6; Titus 3:5-6). No one is saying "water" is magic. No one is saying anyone who takes a bath is baptized, because there is no preached word that accompanies it. Baptism is (as Paul explicitly states) "water with the word".

Baptism is not magic. Baptism is not mechanistic, or automatic. I am not saying (and have never said) that a person who has not been baptized is not saved. That's the Church of Christ position that I'm arguing against.

But I am saying that God, who is all powerful, in His mercy, comes to us in our Baptism and washes us with Christ's blood, renews us by the Holy Spirit, gives us a clean heart and a good conscience. He does not do this because He is limited to it, but because our feeble minds and hearts need something to cling to. The Jews of the Old testament had feeble hearts and minds, so God appeared as a pillar of cloud to lead them. Moses had a feeble heart and mind, so God spoke to him through a burning bush. All of us who are like sheep, and have gone astray, are week and feeble minded, so God came to us as a Baby in a manger....

Baptism is not a "work of righteousness" or an "act of obedience". To call it either one of those is an abomination! Nay, blasphemy! Because baptism is not our action. It is God's. In baptism, we are the passive agents, God is active.

Jesus's name is Emmanuel: God with us. The entirety of Scripture testifies that God comes to us, because we can't come to Him. Think of the parable of "Lost Items" in Luke 15: God the Shepherd seeks his lost sheep; God the housekeeper seeks her lost coin; and God the Father, "while His son was yet a far distance away" runs to His lost son. The entirety of Scripture is loaded with instances of God coming to us through some secondary physical thing (clouds, burning bushes, snakes on sticks). Just as the Holy Spirit hovered over the water in Creation, so does He hover over the water of baptism when God creates clean hearts for us in our baptism.

Making a distinction between Matt 26:28 and Acts 2:38 is kind of silly. It's like me asking my wife, "How did that wall get painted? Did you paint it, or did the paintbrush paint it?" Of course, she painted the wall, using the paintbrush to apply the paint. And just so, Jesus's shed blood saves us, and He uses baptism to apply it.

In our Baptisms, God had has found and claimed His sheep, His coins, His lost sons...



Thanks be to God!

Pax Christi tibi,

Eric

 

[revmalone]

Okay this is a touchy subject and I was just woundering what everyone believes. Can you or can you not be saved and go to heaven without being baptized?

I personaly belive you cannot......and i base that on what the Bible says.....below is a typing of a phamplet that i recived that I think points it out well........


7 REASONS WHY ONE CANNOT BE SAVED WITHOUT BAPTISM
SAVED WITHOUT BEING BAPTIZED???

There are some people that teach baptism is not necessary to be saved. I would like to point out a few facts, that being saved without baptism would mean:

(1) IT WOULD BE WITHOUT OBEDIENCE UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS
In Matthew 3:15 "Jesus answering said unto him, suffer it to be so now for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness then he suffered him"
Note what Paul said in Romans 6:17 "But God be thanked that you were the servants of sin but you have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you"

(2) IT WOULD MEAN BEING SAVED WITHOUT FORGIVENESS OF SINS
Peter said in Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and ye shall receive the gift of the holy ghost"

(3) IT WOULD MEAN WITHOUT HAVING YOUR SINS WASHED AWAY.
Note: Acts 22:16 "And now why tarriest thou arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord"

(4) IT WOULD MEAN WITHOUT BEING BAPTIZED INTO HIS DEATH
Note: Romans 6:3 "Know ye not that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death"

(5) IT WOULD MEAN BEING SAVED OUTSIDE THE BODY OF CHRIST
Note Galations 3:27 "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on christ" Also see John 14:16

(6) IT WOULD MEAN BEING SAVED WITHOUT BEING SAVED
Peter said in 1st Peter 3:21 "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh but the answer of a good conscience toward God) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ"

(7) IT WOULD MEAN BEING SAVED WITHOUT THE OPERATION OF GOD
Paul said in Col. 2:12 "Buried with him in baptism wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God who hath raised him from the dead"


Written by: Jesse Owens, Elder
Lynchburg Church of Christ
898 Leesville Road
Lynchburg, Virginia 24502

I think it's a matter a repenting of your sin's. I Believe that Jesus did everything for us as a example, don't you brother?

If he was off in one point then he would be a fake, but we both know he was perfect in always or we'd all have no hope.

Is Jesus the same yesterday today and forever yes, the why did he take the theif on the cross with him and he never can down from the cross to get baptized to get saved. The baptisim is supposed to be a picture of the death , burial and ressurection. It never said any thing about being baptized to get save it always say's repent or believe in those passeges.

Baptism has a few meanings right.
1. public profession--matthew 10 32-33
Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

2.This scripture gives you the things baptisim does brother but it's not saying your going to get saved that way look at the thing I underlined.

.Col. 2:12 "(Buried) with him (in baptism) wherein also (ye are risen) with him (through the faith) of the operation of God who hath raised him from the dead"

Read the scriputres before this one, it's not about getting saved by getting wet, is it.

This is telling you after you recieved the baptism your to walk in the Newness of Spirit, putting off the old man and putting on the New.

A rule of law is if two scripures agree then it's witness is true right. Jesus tell us this in Mark 16:15-16 I know most in the Church og God know thins one--ha ha ha

15. And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

What are the only 2 things repeated here, believeth. Your saved by faith only brother.

Peter at Pentecost he told then about Jesus and here is the alter call

37. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38. Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


this is repent- get baptized as you public profession if you will.
What about the Holy Spirit, we get him when we make that choice to choose Christ and to follow him not get him to follow. that will preach right there.

Peter said; 39. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized:

Hope this was clear or we can talk more brother
Peace to all who are in Christ
Rev Malone

 

[Schroeder]

Scroeder,

Your objections to the tract are well-intentioned, but not very well-informed by Scripture. In other words, you are right, but for the wrong reasons. Your understanding of both Acts 2 and Acts 10 are seriously flawed.

Peter is absolutely NOT holding on to ANY Jewish ideas in his Pentecost speech. This speech is a description of the normal Christian view of Baptism. Peter's mistakes concerned the keeping of the JEWISH laws, specifically circumcision and dietary laws.

possibly. i would say that peter was speaking of the Holu spirit baptism of Christ. you can read in Acts 10:42 that he said belief in christ forgives sin, different then what he said, or at least what you think he is saying, in Acts 2:38. water baptism is part of jewish custom is it not.

Get this straight, BAPTISM was NOT something Peter got wrong!

Peter says baptism is for the forgiveness of sins here, and he also says it in his first letter (1 Peter 3:21). But Paul's letter make it clear that it is not the act of getting baptized that saves. The reality is that God has promised to work through Baptism in order to attach the benefits of Christ's saving work to us: see Romans 6, "in our baptism we are buried with Christ in order that we may be raised to new life in Him."

Spirit baptism NOT water. read Acts 10:42 God promised no such thing.that is unscriptual show me scripture that says that. he gave Christ to do the one act and one obediance for us because we can in no way do for ourselves. how else are we saved by GRACE.

Now God can certainly work other ways in a pinch, which we see in the Scripture where Jesus makes His prmoise to the thief on the cross. But for the consolation of our consciences, God gave us Baptism, that we may remember that He has saved us through Christ! This is why Paul is constantly tellling his readers to remember their baptisms. It is a blessed thing which God has provided.

Pax Christi tibi,

Eric

That is ridiculouse to say such a thing. in a pinch, like he was caught off gard. God gave us baptism of christ which replaced water baptism of johns. To remember their baptism is to remember there comitement to follow Christ and that it is the Spirit that leads them to HIM.

 

[Schroeder]

No, Norman. "Eis" does not mean "because of". "Dia" means because of. In this passage eis has an accusative, and therefore means more like "into" "unto" or "for the purpose of". I have only the most rudimentary Greek, but even I know that...

but you dont realize that it is the Spirit here not water because as Acts 10:42-45 show Peter said belief in Christ forgives sin and that they recieved the Spirit at that point then they recieved the Gifts of the Spirit. so Acts 2:38 would have to be the Spirit because they believe were baptized by christ and then it is said they recieve the Gifts of it. or do you know say water gives us these gifts as well. inActs 11:17 he says they received it(Spirit baptism) just as they did by believing. are you saying they got it differnetly then we would get it.

Now that's just outright silly, and I think you know it! Baptism requires the presence of a minster (no, lifeguards don't count....unless they've actually been ordained!?) and must be done in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. But you knew that! Surely...you were just joking right? I mean, no one is that...er, silly...right?

Scripture does not say that at all. and it is NEVER given in that form either.So i think you know a lot but understand little of what your saying.