saved by grace or by works

rturner76 · Jul 25, 2022

It's not grace OR works, it's grace AND works. We receive grace through faith and faith is made alive with works. As we know faith without works is dead. It is grace that allows us to show our faith through works. These things cannot be separated. If grace was the only thing that saves, there would be no need for faith. You would be talking about universal salvation if grace was the only requirement.

iwbswiaihl · Jul 25, 2022

=" In Titus 2:11-14, it describes the salvation that the grace of God is bringing to us as instructing us to do what is godly and to renounce doing what is ungodly. It does not say that we are saved first and then after that we will be taught how to do that, but rather part of the content of the salvation of what the grace of God brings is teaching us to do that, so it is speaking about an aspect of our salvation that is ongoing in the present tense. Living in a way that is godly is not separated in time from saving us from living in a way that is ungodly, such as doing what is godly as the result of having been saved from doing what is ungodly, but rather every moment that we are living in a way that is godly in obedience with what God's grace is training us to do in accordance with His law is a moment that we are being saved from living in a way that is ungodly. Our salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of God's law, so living in obedience to it is inherently part of the concept of Jesus saving us from living in transgression of it.

I am trying to get your point on this statement: It does not say that we are saved first and then after that we will be taught how to do that, so it is speaking about an aspect of our salvation that is ongoing in the present tense. What you are saying it the words I darkened is absolutely not correct! Salvation is exactly the opposite of what you state! The natural man cannot please God, they are DEAD in trespass and sin, and if they die in that state they face eternal judgment in the lake of fire as told in the word of God. That is the whole purpose of verses like Eph: 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Read v8 it says you are saved through faith, that is a gift of God unmerited favor, and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God. Lest any man should boast. For WE ARE HIS WORKMANSHIP CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS UNTO GOOD WORKS WHICH GOD HAS BEFORE ORDAIND THAT WE SHOULD WALK IN THEM. Salvation must come first and then the good works must follow in order to show that one has been filled with the Holy Spirit and by the word of God the saved person learns how to apply that word of God into their daily walk. Faith must come first which draws us to believe in Him to receive salvation and then we begin to be transformed by the renewing of our minds. That is exactly what this text here says in Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. The word transforms the mind and heart to desire to do the will of God, now we must begin to apply the word in our lives by faith, without faith it is impossible to Please Him, Hebrews 11:6

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Doug Brents · Jul 25, 2022

Guojing said:
Those Pauline passages you mentioned, why do you think any of them refer to water baptism?

Do you distinguish between Holy Spirit baptism, which does not involve water, and water baptism, or are they both equivalent to you?

Because according to Eph 4:5-6 there is only one baptism in the NT Church. And according to 1 Pet 3:21, Eph 5:26, and Acts 8:36 (among others) it is in water that one baptism occurs.

I believe that the “Holy Spirit baptism” has occurred exactly twice in the history of the world. Once on Pentecost and again to Cornelius: once to the Jews and once to the Gentiles.
I believe the indwelling of the Spirit occurs during water baptism (as indicated by Acts 2:38 and following). In the early Church there was both the indwelling (which all Christians receive) and the miraculous gifts of the Spirit (which, I believe, are no longer bestowed, or needed, since we have the written Word. But that is a discussion for a different thread if you or anyone els disagree).

msortwell · Jul 25, 2022

Doug Brents said:
Because according to Eph 4:5-6 there is only one baptism in the NT Church. And according to 1 Pet 3:21, Eph 5:26, and Acts 8:36 (among others) it is in water that one baptism occurs.

Heb 6:1-2 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Multiple baptisms.

Doug Brents · Jul 25, 2022

msortwell said:
Heb 6:1-2 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Multiple baptisms.

Yes, there are multiple “baptisms” that one can point to in NT Scripture. However, there is only one that is of any importance.

Scripture does not contradict Scripture. There are many who could be called “lord”, but there is only one Lord, there are many churches, but there is only one Body, etc. There are many things into which we could be immersed (baptized), but only one saves, and that, according to the passages of Scripture cited above, is water.

Guojing · Jul 26, 2022

Doug Brents said:
Because according to Eph 4:5-6 there is only one baptism in the NT Church. And according to 1 Pet 3:21, Eph 5:26, and Acts 8:36 (among others) it is in water that one baptism occurs.

I believe that the “Holy Spirit baptism” has occurred exactly twice in the history of the world. Once on Pentecost and again to Cornelius: once to the Jews and once to the Gentiles.
I believe the indwelling of the Spirit occurs during water baptism (as indicated by Acts 2:38 and following). In the early Church there was both the indwelling (which all Christians receive) and the miraculous gifts of the Spirit (which, I believe, are no longer bestowed, or needed, since we have the written Word. But that is a discussion for a different thread if you or anyone els disagree).

Paul said there is only one baptism in the Body of Christ, which is correct.

But if you think that is water baptism, what do you think Paul was saying in 1 Corinthians 1:14-17?

14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized in my name. 16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

Doug Brents · Jul 26, 2022

Guojing said:
Paul said there is only one baptism in the Body of Christ, which is correct.

But if you think that is water baptism, what do you think Paul was saying in 1 Corinthians 1:14-17?

14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized in my name. 16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

Look at the context of what Paul is saying to the people in Corinth. What was going on? They were fighting among themselves, and dividing themselves into groups based on who they followed, or who baptized them, or who …. Paul is glad he didn’t baptize more of them so his name was not more prominent among those divisions.
Further, Paul was a planter of seeds on his first trip to Corinth. He was not there to reap a harvest. When you sow seeds you don’t expect an immediate harvest (although in terms of the Gospel there is an immediate harvest once in a while: Crispus and Gaius, the household of Stephanas). But for the most part it took many meetings, and many talks to bring people to Christ. Paul understood that. When someone did believe immediately (the jailer), he baptized them “that same hour of the night”.

Guojing · Jul 26, 2022

Doug Brents said:
Look at the context of what Paul is saying to the people in Corinth. What was going on? They were fighting among themselves, and dividing themselves into groups based on who they followed, or who baptized them, or who …. Paul is glad he didn’t baptize more of them so his name was not more prominent among those divisions.
Further, Paul was a planter of seeds on his first trip to Corinth. He was not there to reap a harvest. When you sow seeds you don’t expect an immediate harvest (although in terms of the Gospel there is an immediate harvest once in a while: Crispus and Gaius, the household of Stephanas). But for the most part it took many meetings, and many talks to bring people to Christ. Paul understood that. When someone did believe immediately (the jailer), he baptized them “that same hour of the night”.

So you sincerely believe that Paul is also saying water baptism is essential for salvation, despite him stating that "Christ has not sent me to baptize?".

Alright then, thanks for sharing.

Doug Brents · Jul 26, 2022

Guojing said:
So you sincerely believe that Paul is also saying water baptism is essential for salvation, despite him stating that "Christ has not sent me to baptize?".

Alright then, thanks for sharing.

Paul is not the AUTHOR of any of Scripture. He is a ghost writer; the Holy Spirit is the author. What Paul wrote agrees with what Peter wrote agrees with what Mark, and Luke, and James etc. wrote.

When the Holy Spirit says through Peter that water baptism now saves you, and the Holy Spirit says through Luke that those who repent and are baptized will receive forgiveness, and the Holy Spirit says through Mark that those who believe and are baptized will be saved, and the Holy Spirit says through Paul that we are made pure and spotless by the washing of water by the Word, and again through Paul that it is the Holy Spirit who cuts our sin from us and unites us with Christ in His death and resurrection DURING baptism; all of those writers agree. There is no conflict in any of those passages, or in the rest of Scripture against those passages.

Guojing · Jul 27, 2022

Doug Brents said:
Paul is not the AUTHOR of any of Scripture. He is a ghost writer; the Holy Spirit is the author. What Paul wrote agrees with what Peter wrote agrees with what Mark, and Luke, and James etc. wrote.

When the Holy Spirit says through Peter that water baptism now saves you, and the Holy Spirit says through Luke that those who repent and are baptized will receive forgiveness, and the Holy Spirit says through Mark that those who believe and are baptized will be saved, and the Holy Spirit says through Paul that we are made pure and spotless by the washing of water by the Word, and again through Paul that it is the Holy Spirit who cuts our sin from us and unites us with Christ in His death and resurrection DURING baptism; all of those writers agree. There is no conflict in any of those passages, or in the rest of Scripture against those passages.

I see, thanks for sharing your view

Doug Brents · Jul 27, 2022

Guojing said:
I see, thanks for sharing your view

I gather from the tone of your reply that you disagree. With what part of what I just said do you disagree?

Soyeong · Jul 27, 2022

iwbswiaihl said:
I am trying to get your point on this statement: It does not say that we are saved first and then after that we will be taught how to do that, so it is speaking about an aspect of our salvation that is ongoing in the present tense. What you are saying it the words I darkened is absolutely not correct! Salvation is exactly the opposite of what you state! The natural man cannot please God, they are DEAD in trespass and sin, and if they die in that state they face eternal judgment in the lake of fire as told in the word of God. That is the whole purpose of verses like Eph: 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Read v8 it says you are saved through faith, that is a gift of God unmerited favor, and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God. Lest any man should boast. For WE ARE HIS WORKMANSHIP CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS UNTO GOOD WORKS WHICH GOD HAS BEFORE ORDAIND THAT WE SHOULD WALK IN THEM. Salvation must come first and then the good works must follow in order to show that one has been filled with the Holy Spirit and by the word of God the saved person learns how to apply that word of God into their daily walk. Faith must come first which draws us to believe in Him to receive salvation and then we begin to be transformed by the renewing of our minds. That is exactly what this text here says in Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. The word transforms the mind and heart to desire to do the will of God, now we must begin to apply the word in our lives by faith, without faith it is impossible to Please Him, Hebrews 11:6

Titus 2:11-14 does not say we have been saved by grace and then we will do those works, but that our salvation is being saved by grace to do those works, so you are denying the truth of these verses. In Ephesians 2:10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while we do not need to do good works before we can earn our salvation lest anyone should boast, our salvation from not doing good works nevertheless interictally involves doing good works. Doing good works and being saved from not doing good works are intrinsically connected as two sides of the same coin that can't be separated in time where one comes before the other. If someone was saved from not doing good works before they had started doing good works, then they would not yet be saved from not doing good works, so your position is self-defeating. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who refuse to submit to God's law, so someone can't be given the Spirit while they are still refusing to submit to God's law before they have started submitting to it. In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God, so again the Spirit is not given to those who do not yet obey God. In Romans 12:1, it is speaking about something that is ongoing in the present tense. In Hebrews 11, it does not separate their faith from their actions in time such that they had faith first and then did those works, but rather it says that by faith they did those works.

iwbswiaihl · Jul 27, 2022

Soyeong said:
Titus 2:11-14 does not say we have been saved by grace and then we will do those works, but that our salvation is being saved by grace to do those works, so you are denying the truth of these verses. In Ephesians 2:10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while we do not need to do good works before we can earn our salvation lest anyone should boast, our salvation from not doing good works nevertheless interictally involves doing good works. Doing good works and being saved from not doing good works are intrinsically connected as two sides of the same coin that can't be separated in time where one comes before the other. If someone was saved from not doing good works before they had started doing good works, then they would not yet be saved from not doing good works, so your position is self-defeating. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who refuse to submit to God's law, so someone can't be given the Spirit while they are still refusing to submit to God's law before they have started submitting to it. In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God, so again the Spirit is not given to those who do not yet obey God. In Romans 12:1, it is speaking about something that is ongoing in the present tense. In Hebrews 11, it does not separate their faith from their actions in time such that they had faith first and then did those works, but rather it says that by faith they did those works.

Know disrespect but your explanations are not very easy for me to understand. Let's keep it short and simple so this old man can get your points clear, just answer this one question at a time, are you saying that a person does good works before they are saved in your Titus 2:11-14 understanding? We do come to believe that Jesus paid our sin debt by the word of God and then we confess Him as our Lord and Savior, and are saved, is this correct or not?

Soyeong · Jul 27, 2022

iwbswiaihl said:
Know disrespect but your explanations are not very easy for me to understand. Let's keep it short and simple so this old man can get your points clear, just answer this one question at a time, are you saying that a person does good works before they are saved in your Titus 2:11-14 understanding?

Sorry for not being clear. No, doing good works is not something that comes before we can become saved or that comes after we have been saved, but rather doing good works is the content of being saved from not doing good works in the present. For example, obeying God's command to honor our parents is the content of Jesus saving us from not honoring them. If we're not yet honoring our parents, then we are not yet being saved from not honoring them, so honoring our parents can't come before or after being saved from not honoring them, but rather it must happen concurrently in the present so we are being saved from not honoring our parents at the same time that we are honoring them. In Titus 2:11-14, it the content of God's gift of saving us from not doing those works is being trained by grace to do them, so being saved from not doing those works is not something that happens before or after doing them.

We do come to believe that Jesus paid our sin debt by the word of God and then we confess Him as our Lord and Savior, and are saved, is this correct or not?

In Romans 10:5-10, it references Deuteronomy 30:11-16 in regard to our faith saying that God's law is not too difficult to obey, that the one who obeys it will attain life by it, in regard to what we are agreeing to obey by confessing that Jesus is Lord, and in regard to the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20). Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (Matthew 1:21), so living in obedience to it is inherently part of the concept of Jesus saving us from living in transgression of it, which is ongoing in the present.

msortwell · Jul 27, 2022

Soyeong said:
Sorry for not being clear. No, doing good works is not something that comes before we can become saved or that comes after we have been saved, but rather doing good works is the content of being saved from not doing good works in the present. For example, obeying God's command to honor our parents is the content of Jesus saving us from not honoring them. If we're not yet honoring our parents, then we are not yet being saved from not honoring them, so honoring our parents can't come before or after being saved from not honoring them, but rather it must happen concurrently in the present so we are being saved from not honoring our parents at the same time that we are honoring them. In Titus 2:11-14, it the content of God's gift of saving us from not doing those works is being trained by grace to do them, so being saved from not doing those works is not something that happens before or after doing them.

In Romans 10:5-10, it references Deuteronomy 30:11-16 in regard to our faith saying that God's law is not too difficult to obey, that the one who obeys it will attain life by it, in regard to what we are agreeing to obey by confessing that Jesus is Lord, and in regard to the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20). Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (Matthew 1:21), so living in obedience to it is inherently part of the concept of Jesus saving us from living in transgression of it, which is ongoing in the present.

Are you say that God is as sovereign in our Sanctification as he is in our justification?

Phil 2:12-23, Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Soyeong · Jul 27, 2022

msortwell said:
Are you say that God is as sovereign in our Sanctification as he is in our justification?

Phil 2:12-23, Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

My point was not about God's sovereignty. Our salvation, sanctification, and justification all have past, present, and future aspects, so we have been saved from the penalty of our sins (Ephesians 2:5, we are being saved from continuing to live in sin (Philippians 2:12-13), and we will be saved from God's wrath on the day of the Lord (Romans 5:9-10). We have been sanctified (Hebrews 10:10), we are being sanctified (Hebrews 10:14), and when he who began a good work in us is faithful to complete it on the day of Christ Jesus, we will be sanctified (Philippians 1:6). Abraham was justified when he obeyed the call to go to the land where he would receive his inheritance (Genesis 12:1-3, Hebrews 11:8), he was justified when he believed God (Genesis 15:6, Romans 4:5), and he was justified when he offered Isaac (Genesis 22, Hebrews 11:17, James 2:21).

So my point is to speak about the present aspect of our salvation of being saved from continuing to live in transgression of God's law, which intrinsically involves living in obedience to it. In Titus 2:11-14, it is describing the present aspect of our salvation as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, and as Christ giving himself to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the present aspect of our salvation (Acts 21:20). Doing what is godly in obedience to God's law is the content of Jesus saving us from doing what is ungodly in transgression of it. We can't be saved from continuing to do something at any time other than the present, so we can't be saved from doing what is ungodly before or after to doing what is godly, but rather being saved from continuing to do what is ungodly only happens concurrently with doing what is godly.

msortwell · Jul 27, 2022

Genesis 15:4-6
4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir." 5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him,"So shall your descendants be."
6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness. NKJV

Romans 4:20-22
20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore "it was accounted to him for righteousness." NKJV

No reference is made here regarding Abraham's obedience continributing to his being accounted as righteous (beinb justified).

Guojing · Jul 27, 2022

Doug Brents said:
I gather from the tone of your reply that you disagree. With what part of what I just said do you disagree?

I already stated my view to you here saved by grace or by works

So I disagree with your view "What Paul wrote agrees with what Peter wrote agrees with what Mark, and Luke, and James etc. wrote."

If you accept that different parts of the Bible are addressed to

Different groups of people
at different points of time.

you cannot conclude that.

msortwell · Jul 27, 2022

Guojing said:
I already stated my view to you here saved by grace or by works

So I disagree with your view "What Paul wrote agrees with what Peter wrote agrees with what Mark, and Luke, and James etc. wrote."

If you accept that different parts of the Bible are addressed to

Different groups of people

at different points of time.

you cannot conclude that.

Is it your position that these different authors, superintended by the Holy Spirit, wrote of different ways/means of salvation?

BNR32FAN · Jul 27, 2022

jameshjr said:
So I went for a walk with someone I know from my church for the first time. We eventually got around to talking about Jesus.

He asked me how i came to the faith, and I informed him that i had spent most of my life looking for truth and that i finally came to christianity and found it to be true.

He then went on to say that all religions teach the same thing : do good.

I said, is that not where Christianity is different: in that we are saved by grace through faith. To which i cannot remember his response.

More was said with which i had an issue, and i soon asked him if he thought Jesus is the son of God, to which he replied: He was born of the spirit.

Now this has thrown me through a loop. I am new to the faith (around 18 months) and he has been going to church a long time.

I figured that everyone who went to church believed that Jesus was the son of God and believed in salvation through faith, and not salvation through works.

I have thought about this and read Matthew's gospel; but only the red letter (what Jesus said).

I found one passage where Jesus mentioned his sacrifice for the remission of sins: Matthew 26:28. Which could be interpreted many ways based upon that one line of text.

To counter the idea of being saved by grace through faith is the concluding text of Matthew 28:18-20. Which i think could be argued that Jesus wants us to do as he taught (leaning more towards deeds over grace through faith).

I know that Paul further went into the theme of salvation through grace (why should i trust Pauls teaching), but if we were to go purely off of just Marks gospel, then could it not fairly be argued that Jesus teaches that we are saved by works rather than grace just like every other religion?

I'd really like some help with this, as my faith idea of my faith has been shaken.

P.s. i do beleive that Jesus is the son of God and has clear authority given to him from the Father, and therefore whatever he taught, i believe is what i should (try to) follow, and would like to clarify exactly what that is.

Saved by grace means that we didn’t earn our salvation, this is because we can’t earn it. But that doesn’t mean that we don’t need to follow Jesus’ teachings. Following Christ’s teachings is something that we do because we can feel the Holy Spirit urging us to act accordingly. When we do sin we feel remorse, when we see people in need we feel compassion. It’s not something that I would consider to be a conscious effort to follow Christ it’s something we want to do because we can feel His love in us. For me it’s not about trying to do something it’s more about doing what feels good. Like right now things are really tough on me now financially. I’m behind on my bills, I’m worried about an eviction notice, I have a wife and three kids depending on me, and I see homeless people asking for money and I just don’t have it to give like I normally would and it hurts inside. My heart urges to help others and it hurts that I can’t right now. That’s what Christ abiding in you means. Your feelings are aligned with His and they compel you to do what He wants.

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