Jason0047 said:
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Anyways, any time you want to get back to talking about the Bible and the goodness of God, just let me know....
Jason, this is condescension.
Well, speaking the truth is not example of condescension, my friend. For you ignored all the verses I brought forth and instead you decided to focus your discussion on me. Also, you did not properly explain how doing willful evil works or sin (with no remorse) while under God's grace is acceptable to God. You mention how man has a weakened condition, but at what level is this condition? Is a believer always going to do really bad and evil things most of the time? Or can a believer walk in holiness most of the time? Can a believer stop sinning for 5 minutes? If he can stop for 5 minutes logic dictates that he can do so for days and even months.
Grafted In said:
You assert that any works in a believer's life that are not the Good works of Jesus Christ means that person is not saved. I simply asked you if you had any sin in your life and you dodge the question by implying I'm getting too personal.
What is this thread if not personal?
And I did answer your question. I said I do not commit sin that leads unto spiritual death.
I do not want to go into the details of my life because the internet is not the place to do so.
Not everyone in this world is trust worthy and honorable and has your best intention at heart.
Grafted In said:
We are saved by grace. Period.
Ephesians 2:8-9King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
"Not of works, lest any man should boast."
"Not of works, lest any man should boast."
Thank you for bringing the Bible back into our discussion again (Instead of focusing your discussion on me).
Anways, to answer Ephesians 2:8-9, we also have to realize Scripture also says,
"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17).
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny
him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).
"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words,
even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "
(1 Timothy 6:3-4).
"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).
"Follow peace with all
men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).
"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).
"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).
"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).
"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).
"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).
"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).
In addition, Ephesians 2:2-3 says,
"Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others" (Ephesians 2:2-3).
This means we used to be sinners as a way of life as a part of our old life and not our new life in Christ.
So a "sin and still be saved" while under grace is not in view in Ephesians 2.
For
Ephesians 2:8-9 is speaking of salvation as a gift and verse 13 says we (Gentiles) were brought near by the blood of Christ. Also, verse 18 says that thru Jesus we have access to one Spirit under the Father. So this is talking about the receiving of one's faith and how we are ultimately justified and saved (Which is by his mercy and grace) (Justification). This then leads us to Sanctification in
Ephesians 2:10 that says, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them." So we are created in Christ Jesus for good works and we are fore-ordained by God that we should walk in them.
So when we first come to the Lord, we can have an assurance of salvation apart from any kind of works just by simply repenting of our sins and accepting Jesus as our Savior (
Ephesians 2:8-9). Then from there, the Lord will then work in our hearts and lives to do of His good will and pleasure (
Ephesians 2:10).
So in Ephesians 2:8-9, Paul is talking about Initial Salvation or Ultimate Salvation and he is referriing to the words "saved by grace and not of works" as in reference to Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism and in going back to the Law of Moses (i.e. which was a part of the Pharisee religion); And in Ephesians 2:10 and James 2:17, James 2:24, it is talking about Christ directed works done thru the believer after one accepts God's grace and trusts in Him for salvation.
In other words, Paul addressed the problem of the Pharisee religion with the words "law" and "works." For the Pharisees attempted to turn salvation into a form of Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism with no Savior and no grace. This is evident by reading the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee. For the Pharisee did not cry out to God to have mercy on his sins like the Tax Collector did.
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