Saved by believing the gospel?

[Lee52]

Those who believe in SPIRITUAL LIFE AND DEATH: SAY "I"

"I too" just doesn't work. Can I just say, "Me too"?

And No, I did not change my mind.

Be blessed,
Lee52

 

[youngdisciplectl3]

me too is fine lol

 

[Butch5]

God is my life and I have him NOW. I appreciate your time and effort in here. I will check out your link sometime. Thank you!

Hi Yd,

Yes, you have Him now. However, eternal life in the Scriptures is living forever in Christ's physical earthly kingdom. If you read that paper I linked to you will see what I'm talking about. So many Christians think they are going to spend an eternity in a heavenly nebulous floating around in the sky. Adam and Eve were put on the earth to rule over God's creation, not to experience the fall. From the beginning God intended man to live forever on the earth.

 

[Butch5]

butch, the question is answered. There is death, and there is Death. Physical death will occur to all but a few people. The real Death (eternal separation from God) will never happen to believers.

Where do you find Eternal separation from God as a definition of death?

 

[Butch5]

All but a few will die- physicaly.
Christians will never die- spiritualy. Ofcourse when Jesus said we will never die he wasn't lying to us telling us our flesh would never die.

Read Luke 16, when Lazarus and the rich man died both of their souls were in hades and both souls were very much alive.

 

[Butch5]

Eddie have you ever beat a dead horse?

Redefining words to fit one's doctrine is not exegesis, it's eisegesis. If we're going to redefine the words we can believe anything we want to believe.

 

[Butch5]

Yeah, I was really surprised that this issue of spiritual life and death became a debate! I assumed everyone agreed on it. See what happens when I assume? lol. Anyways I am curious about where the disbelief in it comes from too. Do certain denominations teach there is no such thing as spiritual life and death and is it because it messes up their theology??? God bless guys and gals!

Yd,

It's not even yet been shown from the Scriptures.

 

[youngdisciplectl3]

Hi Yd,

Yes, you have Him now. However, eternal life in the Scriptures is living forever in Christ's physical earthly kingdom. If you read that paper I linked to you will see what I'm talking about. So many Christians think they are going to spend an eternity in a heavenly nebulous floating around in the sky. Adam and Eve were put on the earth to rule over God's creation, not to experience the fall. From the beginning God intended man to live forever on the earth.

Well here is something we can agree on: we will be on Earth forever. I agree our final destination isn't flying around somewhere in outerspace or whatever people believe lol. I believe we are going to get back to where we were intended to stay: the Garden.

 

[youngdisciplectl3]

Read Luke 16, when Lazarus and the rich man died both of their souls were in hades and both souls were very much alive.

I would say one was in hell and one wasn't. I believe those not in hell at that time were in paradise on the other side of the gulf. (The rich man on the cross went to paradise the day he died). But I don't want to get into that too much on this thread.

What Lee said that I agree with is that death is the seperation of a man's spirit from God's. I don't believe the rich man in hades had fellowship with God or had the Spirit in him. THAT is spiritual death.

To me someone becomes alive in Christ when they are reborn. what happened to Adam is the opposite.

Yes he got kicked out of the Garden. That was ONE of the consequences of his sin, but not the only. One of the consequences was the opposite of recieving the Holy Spirit that gives life- having the Holy Spirit leave him (death/he died that day).

Anyways I'm tired of beating this dead horse lol. I have enjoyed and appreciated everyone's thoughts on the matter... well almost everyone's lol.

 

[youngdisciplectl3]

Yd,

It's not even yet been shown from the Scriptures.

I'd say that to you. I've shown scriptures that show we, individualy, WERE dead but are NOW alive. I've shown scriptures that say God is our life. But you are stuck on life meaning future time spent in the Garden. You, my friend, are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay out there in my honest opinion.

I am not even 1 percent persuaded by your side of the arguement on this matter. I'll stick to the clarity of simple scripture.

I was dead. Now I'm alive. Adam died the day he ate the fruit. Amen.

 

[Lindas Place]

To OP’s questions… I would start with the gospel, Christ death, burial and
resurrection for the forgiveness of sins… and I would share these scriptures for sure.

how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. Hebrews 2:3

THE NEW COVENANT (GOOD NEWS)

For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant. Hebrews 9:15 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. Hebrews 10:10 &12

YOU CAN BE SURE

Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. Hebrews 11;1

YOU CAN BE SAVED

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16

YOU CAN BE FORGIVEN

"But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8

YOU CAN OVERCOME

Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God. 1 John 5:5

NOT BY KEEPING THE LAW

know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified. Galatians 2:16

NOT BY WORKS

And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. Romans 11:6

SALVATION IS A GIFT

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

YOU CAN RECEIVE

"Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God." John 1:12

AND DO THE WORKS OF GOD

Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"

Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." John 6:28-29



Shipwrecked ***(Christians can be sure)***



NO HUMAN EFFORT - STILL SAVED

Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? Galatians 3:3

SINNER - STILL SAVED

My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 1John 2:1

NO WORKS - STILL SAVED

his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; HE HIMSELF WILL BE SAVED, but only as one escaping through the flames. 1 Corinthians 3 13-15

LOST FAITH - STILL SAVED

if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself. 2 Tim 2:13

BROKE THE LAW - STILL SAVED

You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. Galatians 5:4 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Galatians 3:24

NO CHARGES AGAINTS YOU

What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Romans 8:31-33

YOU ARE NOT CONDEMNED

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:1-2

JESUS DOES NOT CONDEMN YOU

Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? Romans 8:34-35

YOU CANNOT BE SEPARATED

"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38-39"

YOU ARE SEALED UNTIL REDEMPTION

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory Ephesians 1:13-14

YOU ARE PERFECT FOREVER

because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. Hebrews 10:14

YOU WILL NEVER PERISH

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." John 10:28-30

 

[Butch5]

To OP’s questions… I would start with the gospel, Christ death, burial and
resurrection for the forgiveness of sins… and I would share these scriptures for sure.

how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. Hebrews 2:3

THE NEW COVENANT (GOOD NEWS)

For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant. Hebrews 9:15 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. Hebrews 10:10 &12

YOU CAN BE SURE

Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. Hebrews 11;1

YOU CAN BE SAVED

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16

YOU CAN BE FORGIVEN

"But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8

YOU CAN OVERCOME

Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God. 1 John 5:5

NOT BY KEEPING THE LAW

know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified. Galatians 2:16

NOT BY WORKS

And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. Romans 11:6

SALVATION IS A GIFT

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

YOU CAN RECEIVE

"Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God." John 1:12

AND DO THE WORKS OF GOD

Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"

Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." John 6:28-29



Shipwrecked ***(Christians can be sure)***



NO HUMAN EFFORT - STILL SAVED

Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? Galatians 3:3

SINNER - STILL SAVED

My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 1John 2:1

NO WORKS - STILL SAVED

his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; HE HIMSELF WILL BE SAVED, but only as one escaping through the flames. 1 Corinthians 3 13-15

LOST FAITH - STILL SAVED

if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself. 2 Tim 2:13

BROKE THE LAW - STILL SAVED

You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. Galatians 5:4 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Galatians 3:24

NO CHARGES AGAINTS YOU

What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Romans 8:31-33

YOU ARE NOT CONDEMNED

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:1-2

JESUS DOES NOT CONDEMN YOU

Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? Romans 8:34-35

YOU CANNOT BE SEPARATED

"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38-39"

YOU ARE SEALED UNTIL REDEMPTION

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory Ephesians 1:13-14

YOU ARE PERFECT FOREVER

because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. Hebrews 10:14

YOU WILL NEVER PERISH

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." John 10:28-30

This shows the dangers of proof-texting.

 

[Lindas Place]

This shows the dangers of proof-texting.

When God say’s it’s good news, it really is good news.

Acts 13:41
38 “Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39 Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses.

40 Take care that what the prophets have said does not happen to you:

41 “‘Look, you scoffers,
wonder and perish,
for I am going to do something in your days
that you would never believe,
even if someone told you.’”

 

[youngdisciplectl3]

To OP’s questions… I would start with the gospel, Christ death, burial and
resurrection for the forgiveness of sins… and I would share these scriptures for sure.

how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. Hebrews 2:3

THE NEW COVENANT (GOOD NEWS)

For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant. Hebrews 9:15 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. Hebrews 10:10 &12

YOU CAN BE SURE

Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. Hebrews 11;1

YOU CAN BE SAVED

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16

YOU CAN BE FORGIVEN

"But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8

YOU CAN OVERCOME

Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God. 1 John 5:5

NOT BY KEEPING THE LAW

know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified. Galatians 2:16

NOT BY WORKS

And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. Romans 11:6

SALVATION IS A GIFT

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

YOU CAN RECEIVE

"Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God." John 1:12

AND DO THE WORKS OF GOD

Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"

Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." John 6:28-29



Shipwrecked ***(Christians can be sure)***



NO HUMAN EFFORT - STILL SAVED

Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? Galatians 3:3

SINNER - STILL SAVED

My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 1John 2:1

NO WORKS - STILL SAVED

his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; HE HIMSELF WILL BE SAVED, but only as one escaping through the flames. 1 Corinthians 3 13-15

LOST FAITH - STILL SAVED

if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself. 2 Tim 2:13

BROKE THE LAW - STILL SAVED

You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. Galatians 5:4 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Galatians 3:24

NO CHARGES AGAINTS YOU

What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Romans 8:31-33

YOU ARE NOT CONDEMNED

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:1-2

JESUS DOES NOT CONDEMN YOU

Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? Romans 8:34-35

YOU CANNOT BE SEPARATED

"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38-39"

YOU ARE SEALED UNTIL REDEMPTION

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory Ephesians 1:13-14

YOU ARE PERFECT FOREVER

because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. Hebrews 10:14

YOU WILL NEVER PERISH

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." John 10:28-30

Btw this isn't "proof texting" Butch. Just because some of you don't like these verses doesn't mean we have to quote each surrounding chapter to each verse. The verses still mean the same thing in their context. You can run from these verses but the surrounding scripture doesn't contradict or change these verses. You look at these verses and say: these verses don't mean what they say if you look at the surrounding verses. I say: these verses are very simple and say the same thing when reading the scripture surrounding it.

People who understand scripture can put single verses on here. They make sense in their context and mean the same without the context.

For those who say context, context: you read the context yourself and see why we post single verses.

We post single verses a lot of times because there is no use putting the whole Bible in a post when: the verses make sense by themselves, the verses mean the same thing out of context, the verses don't disagree with context, etc...

I'm starting to think that people don't like what verses say so they just yell: CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT!!!! lol (and they make the assumption that we haven't read or understand the context... could they ever ask themselves if maybe they don't understand????)

 

[Butch5]

When God say’s it’s good news, it really is good news.

Acts 13:41
38 “Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39 Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses.

40 Take care that what the prophets have said does not happen to you:

41 “‘Look, you scoffers,
wonder and perish,
for I am going to do something in your days
that you would never believe,
even if someone told you.’”

How would anyone know without the context?

 

[youngdisciplectl3]

I wonder if God wants me in these forums sometimes. I need to pray about it. I sit back and wonder why people are in here. To seek truth? To teach? For the "fun" of debating? Boredom? Are some wolves in sheep's clothing? As for me... I'm not really sure. I guess I just like talking to other Christians, share what I believe and see if others agree or disagree and why, see if what I believe stands after a good debate, etc...

One more thing before I retire. I might make another thread about something I call "filters." It seems in (but not limited to) forums you have all types of educated people. Many people who know the Bible very well but have come to very different conclusions. I think many people read the bible through a filter. Like their past. For a cheesy example: someone who grew up in a strict home and then spent a life in the military may pick up a bible and interpret things very legalistic. I think people see things in life (including scripture) through different types of "lenses" or "filters.''

Depending on what books you've read, your personality, your past, your emotions, pride in your father's church/denomination, etc... these are all filters that I think can effect someone's interpretation NO MATTER HOW EDUCATED THEY ARE.

Just think of all the people in life constantly learning but never come to the knowledge of the truth. Anyways, maybe another thread sometime.

 

[Butch5]

Hi Yd,

Do they mean the same thing in context? We've just had a perfect example of this. Just look at Acts 13:48, everyone claiming this verse proves that people are predestined to believe. However, when we look at the passage in context we see that that interpretation is in complete contradiction to what Paul said in verse 46. I don't have any problems with any verses, but when they are taken out context and used to by people to "prove" what they have already decided they mean that is not exegesis, it's eisegesis. I'm kind of surprised I need to do this still but let's look at the context of some of these passages.

YOU CAN BE FORGIVEN

"But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8

First of all this passage says nothing about forgiveness, it speaks of God's love.

Additionally, Paul said while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. Were you a sinner when Christ died? No, you weren't even born so obviously you couldn't have sinned. Paul is obviously addressing and speaking "about" people who were his contemporaries.

NOT BY KEEPING THE LAW

know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified. Galatians 2:16

The Gentiles were never under the Law, so the Law was never an issue the Gentiles had to deal with. Additionally, even if the Gentiles were under the Law , the lea ended approximately 2000 years ago. So telling someone today that they are not saved by keeping the Law is pointless. It was never an issue for anyone but the Jews.

NOT BY WORKS

And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. Romans 11:6

Here the argument is that one is not saved by works, yet the passage that is quoted is addressed to Jews and is in reference to the Mosaic Law which as stated above was never an issue for the Gentiles and is no longer an issue for the Jews.

YOU CAN RECEIVE

"Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God." John 1:12

While all can receive Christ this is not the passage to use to prove that simply because this passage is speaking of Israel. It means as many Jews as received Him He gave the power to be come children of God. The context shows this. If you read the verses just prior to this John says, He came to His own and His own did not receive Him. So, you see, this is a perfect example of proof-texting. It is taking a verse that is speaking of the Jews and applying to to all people. That is taking Scripture out of context.

NO HUMAN EFFORT - STILL SAVED

Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? Galatians 3:3

This passage is likewise taken out of context. In context Paul is addressing the Mosaic Law, not human effort. Additionally, this particular translation shows the translators bias and thus he introduces a false teaching. the interpretation given to this passage also flatly contradicts many Scriptures.

23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.​

28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.(Luk 13:23-28 KJV)

To strive take human effort. These are the words of Jesus Himself. He told them to strive to enter in at the strait gate. Notice the ones who are rejected, did Jesus say depart from me you who never believed? No, He doesn't, He says depart from me you who work iniquity. It was their works that got them rejected. Likewise it was those who did strive to enter that were accepted.

I could post a boat load of passages but I think you get the picture. So, you see how taking a verse, ripping it from it's context and interpreting it in a vacuum can be problematic.

SINNER - STILL SAVED

My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 1John 2:1

Here again we have an interpretation that contradicts other Scriptures. The point of the passage quoted clearly states, I write this to you so that you will not sin, yet the premise of the author is that one can be a sinner and still be saved. What purpose does the admonition (that you will not sin) serve if one can go ahead and be a sinner? Paul said that those who practice the deeds of the flesh (which are what makes one a sinner) will not see the kingdom of God. Do you supposed maybe Paul was wrong? Jesus said to His disciples, unless you remain in me, you cannot bear fruit. He went on to say that those branches that don't bear fruit are pruned off and cast into the fire. Can one be a sinner and remain in Christ. Or, in the context of John 15, could the apostles have been sinners and remained in Christ?

NO WORKS - STILL SAVED

his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; HE HIMSELF WILL BE SAVED, but only as one escaping through the flames. 1 Corinthians 3 13-15

Here again, the passage is out of context. If you look at this passage it is referring to those who are leaders or teachers in the church or on the faith.

as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? {divisions: or, factions} {as men: Gr. according to man?}
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. {husbandry: or, tillage}
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. {it shall be: Gr. it is}
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.​

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1Co 3:1-15 KJV)

It's clear from the context that "any man" here is referring to any man who builds on the foundation that Paul has laid. This passage is "NOT" talking about the average Christian and the works that he does. It is speaking of those who preach and teach the gospel.

The interpretation that's been given here also contradicts Jesus' teaching from John 15 where Jesus said, any branch that doesn't bear fruit is taken away and cast into the fire. So again, we see that when taken from it's context the verse "Does not" say what the poster is claiming.

LOST FAITH - STILL SAVED

if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself. 2 Tim 2:13

Yet again, an interpretation that does not fit is forced onto a passage. This passage does not say if one loses faith they are still saved. Again, let's go back to the context.

11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:​

13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. (2Ti 2:11-13 KJV)

Just before the quoted passage Paul said, if we deny Him He will deny us. He's just repeating Jesus' words, Jesus spoke of this.

30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.​

(Mat 10:30-34 KJV)

From this passage I think it is pretty clear what Paul meant when he said that Jesus couldn't deny Himself. He will remain faithful to Himself and He's already stated what He will do about those who deny Him. Paul said it in verse 12 ,if we deny Him He will deny us, and Jesus said that if a man denied Him He would deny that man before the Father. Obviously this passage is "NOT" stating that lost faith equals salvation.

BROKE THE LAW - STILL SAVED

You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. Galatians 5:4 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Galatians 3:24

Here again we have a statement about the Law. This has been addressed. The Law was never an issue for the Gentiles and it is not an issue for anyone today, Jew or Gentile.

NO CHARGES AGAINTS YOU

What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Romans 8:31-33

Here we have a passage directed at Jewish believers being applied to all people. If you read the verses just prior to this passage (context) you'll find that Paul is speaking of those God foreknew, those that Loved Him. We know that those God foreknew is a reference to the Jews because Paul goes on a little later in this letter to tell us.

KJV Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.​

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. (Rom 11:1-2 KJV)

So, taking this passage and applying it to all Christians is to take it out of context.

YOU CANNOT BE SEPARATED

"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38-39"

This passage is also a good example. The heading leads one to believe they cannot be separated from God, yet that is "NOT" what the passage says. It says what can separate us from the love of God. Again, in context this passage is speaking of the Jews, it a continuation of the above passage.

YOU WILL NEVER PERISH

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." John 10:28-30

Here the sheep are Jews. Jesus said that He had only come to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. The context clearly shows that this passage is a reference to Jews. Applying it to Gentiles of today is taking it out of context.

I hope this helps to show the dangers of proof-texting and why seekers of the truth should avoid proof texting at all costs.

 

[Calminian]

I wonder if God wants me in these forums sometimes. I need to pray about it. I sit back and wonder why people are in here. To seek truth? To teach? For the "fun" of debating? Boredom? Are some wolves in sheep's clothing? As for me... I'm not really sure. I guess I just like talking to other Christians, share what I believe and see if others agree or disagree and why, see if what I believe stands after a good debate, etc...

One more thing before I retire. I might make another thread about something I call "filters." It seems in (but not limited to) forums you have all types of educated people. Many people who know the Bible very well but have come to very different conclusions. I think many people read the bible through a filter. Like their past. For a cheesy example: someone who grew up in a strict home and then spent a life in the military may pick up a bible and interpret things very legalistic. I think people see things in life (including scripture) through different types of "lenses" or "filters.''

Depending on what books you've read, your personality, your past, your emotions, pride in your father's church/denomination, etc... these are all filters that I think can effect someone's interpretation NO MATTER HOW EDUCATED THEY ARE.

Just think of all the people in life constantly learning but never come to the knowledge of the truth. Anyways, maybe another thread sometime.

I kinda hope you end up hanging around and posting once in a while. I think your heart to just discuss and bounce ideas back and forth is healthy and refreshing. But indeed pray about it.

But make no mistake, many will literally berate you if you're not on par with their beliefs. Sometimes that can wear a person down. There's a fine line between iron sharpens iron conversations, and quarrelsomeness.

I do believe though, you can learn a lot in forums like these. You can also run the risk of being emotionally beat up, or becoming puffed up. If you can avoid those two pitfalls, there is much to be gained.

 

[youngdisciplectl3]

Butch, I don't know if you know this but the law IS an issue for a lot of gentiles today. There are many very legalistic Christian denominations.

Even back then you DID have gentiles being put into bondage by Judaizers. So to say the law was/is never an issue for gentiles is absurd in my opinion.

Also in reference to your comment to Galatians 3:3 you say he is not talking about human effort when he uses the word "human effort." This is where I get a little concerned for you. He IS talking about human effort. Yes, he is saying the law is not the way and yes he is saying human effort is not the way. This goes with the theme of the New Covenant that we cannot earn our salvation by obeying the law, by works, etc... IT IS A GIFT!

Calminian, thank you. Good food for thought also.

God bless guys and gals!

 

[youngdisciplectl3]

Butch, so the Jews can't be snatched out of God's hand, but me and you can be? lol. Make you wish you were a Jew?

I'm out.