Lindas Place
Newbie
Thank you Butch, you put some effort into explaining what you believe these scriptures really mean I read each and every comment you made but I was not convince that these scriptures mean anything other than what they actually say, in context and out of context.Hi Yd,
Do they mean the same thing in context? We've just had a perfect example of this. Just look at Acts 13:48, everyone claiming this verse proves that people are predestined to believe. However, when we look at the passage in context we see that that interpretation is in complete contradiction to what Paul said in verse 46. I don't have any problems with any verses, but when they are taken out context and used to by people to "prove" what they have already decided they mean that is not exegesis, it's eisegesis. I'm kind of surprised I need to do this still but let's look at the context of some of these passages.
First of all this passage says nothing about forgiveness, it speaks of God's love.
Additionally, Paul said while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. Were you a sinner when Christ died? No, you weren't even born so obviously you couldn't have sinned. Paul is obviously addressing and speaking "about" people who were his contemporaries.
The Gentiles were never under the Law, so the Law was never an issue the Gentiles had to deal with. Additionally, even if the Gentiles were under the Law , the lea ended approximately 2000 years ago. So telling someone today that they are not saved by keeping the Law is pointless. It was never an issue for anyone but the Jews.
Here the argument is that one is not saved by works, yet the passage that is quoted is addressed to Jews and is in reference to the Mosaic Law which as stated above was never an issue for the Gentiles and is no longer an issue for the Jews.
While all can receive Christ this is not the passage to use to prove that simply because this passage is speaking of Israel. It means as many Jews as received Him He gave the power to be come children of God. The context shows this. If you read the verses just prior to this John says, He came to His own and His own did not receive Him. So, you see, this is a perfect example of proof-texting. It is taking a verse that is speaking of the Jews and applying to to all people. That is taking Scripture out of context.
This passage is likewise taken out of context. In context Paul is addressing the Mosaic Law, not human effort. Additionally, this particular translation shows the translators bias and thus he introduces a false teaching. the interpretation given to this passage also flatly contradicts many Scriptures.
23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.(Luk 13:23-28 KJV)
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
To strive take human effort. These are the words of Jesus Himself. He told them to strive to enter in at the strait gate. Notice the ones who are rejected, did Jesus say depart from me you who never believed? No, He doesn't, He says depart from me you who work iniquity. It was their works that got them rejected. Likewise it was those who did strive to enter that were accepted.
I could post a boat load of passages but I think you get the picture. So, you see how taking a verse, ripping it from it's context and interpreting it in a vacuum can be problematic.
Here again we have an interpretation that contradicts other Scriptures. The point of the passage quoted clearly states, I write this to you so that you will not sin, yet the premise of the author is that one can be a sinner and still be saved. What purpose does the admonition (that you will not sin) serve if one can go ahead and be a sinner? Paul said that those who practice the deeds of the flesh (which are what makes one a sinner) will not see the kingdom of God. Do you supposed maybe Paul was wrong? Jesus said to His disciples, unless you remain in me, you cannot bear fruit. He went on to say that those branches that don't bear fruit are pruned off and cast into the fire. Can one be a sinner and remain in Christ. Or, in the context of John 15, could the apostles have been sinners and remained in Christ?
Here again, the passage is out of context. If you look at this passage it is referring to those who are leaders or teachers in the church or on the faith.
as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1Co 3:1-15 KJV)
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? {divisions: or, factions} {as men: Gr. according to man?}
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. {husbandry: or, tillage}
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. {it shall be: Gr. it is}
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
It's clear from the context that "any man" here is referring to any man who builds on the foundation that Paul has laid. This passage is "NOT" talking about the average Christian and the works that he does. It is speaking of those who preach and teach the gospel.
The interpretation that's been given here also contradicts Jesus' teaching from John 15 where Jesus said, any branch that doesn't bear fruit is taken away and cast into the fire. So again, we see that when taken from it's context the verse "Does not" say what the poster is claiming.
Yet again, an interpretation that does not fit is forced onto a passage. This passage does not say if one loses faith they are still saved. Again, let's go back to the context.
11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. (2Ti 2:11-13 KJV)
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
Just before the quoted passage Paul said, if we deny Him He will deny us. He's just repeating Jesus' words, Jesus spoke of this.
30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.(Mat 10:30-34 KJV)
31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
From this passage I think it is pretty clear what Paul meant when he said that Jesus couldn't deny Himself. He will remain faithful to Himself and He's already stated what He will do about those who deny Him. Paul said it in verse 12 ,if we deny Him He will deny us, and Jesus said that if a man denied Him He would deny that man before the Father. Obviously this passage is "NOT" stating that lost faith equals salvation.
Here again we have a statement about the Law. This has been addressed. The Law was never an issue for the Gentiles and it is not an issue for anyone today, Jew or Gentile.
Here we have a passage directed at Jewish believers being applied to all people. If you read the verses just prior to this passage (context) you'll find that Paul is speaking of those God foreknew, those that Loved Him. We know that those God foreknew is a reference to the Jews because Paul goes on a little later in this letter to tell us.
KJV Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. (Rom 11:1-2 KJV)
So, taking this passage and applying it to all Christians is to take it out of context.
This passage is also a good example. The heading leads one to believe they cannot be separated from God, yet that is "NOT" what the passage says. It says what can separate us from the love of God. Again, in context this passage is speaking of the Jews, it a continuation of the above passage.
Here the sheep are Jews. Jesus said that He had only come to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. The context clearly shows that this passage is a reference to Jews. Applying it to Gentiles of today is taking it out of context.
I hope this helps to show the dangers of proof-texting and why seekers of the truth should avoid proof texting at all costs.
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