Saved based on God's foreknowledge or God's random choice?

royal priest · Sep 29, 2018

Bobber said:
Not to mention that Calvinists in the real world would never apply the same principles or reasoning they do as when they come over to God. They say that if one claims they've believed and received and God acted that's somehow being some type of works salvation. It's all got to be God. Well Salvation is all of God but their way of reasoning is absurd.

If someone gave one an inheritance and they were responsible to go to the lawyer and sign on to receive it would they say they're not going? Would they say the one who gave the inheritance has got to pick me up in the car, drive me to the lawyers, carry me in the office and move my hand with the pen? "Well I don't want anybody to say I did anything to merit it?"

My point is Calvinists don't think anything like that about whatever else in life and they'd call it crazy if they heard one slow walked their inheritance because they didn't want to do what it took to accept it. But why not? Why couldn't someone say well you had to sign the documents so you did something to merit it? The dearly departed loved one would probably wish they never gave it to them in the first place to hear talk that they felt they did something to merit it by merely signing on to it.

Actually, the Calvinist would acknowledge they would not have received the inheritance unless they had been chosen by an outside party. Then they would do everything in their power to make their calling and election sure. Of course, it might not work out in the end, but that would be okay, because that too would have been according to the will of God.

royal priest · Sep 29, 2018

bling said:
The three parables go together (lost coin, lost sheep, lost boy) 11 Jesus continued: “There was a man who had two sons.... 1. they are said together with this introduction Luke 15:7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
Is the lost boy giving you trouble, since he is making what appears to be a free will choice?
Is the Father not represent God the Father?
You can still just address the question?

The lamb and the coin were sought and found. The son was not expecting to be received as a son. The focus of those parables is on God's determination to secure our salvation regardless of our wandering and demerit.

TCassidy · Sep 29, 2018

jesus316 said:
Neither. You are saved based on your choice to receive God's gift of salvation.

So you are not saved based on Christ's sacrifice but on your own innate faith?

Tayla · Sep 29, 2018

TCassidy said:
So you are not saved based on Christ's sacrifice but on your own innate faith?

Saved by appropriating Christ's sacrifice by faith.

bling · Sep 29, 2018

royal priest said:
The lamb and the coin were sought and found. The son was not expecting to be received as a son. The focus of those parables is on God's determination to secure our salvation regardless of our wandering and demerit.

There are the three scenarios you can have with the lost and that is what Jesus is presenting:
1. The person is lost but does not know they are lost (the coin).
2. The person is lost knows they are lost, but does not know the way home (the lamb).
3. The person is lost knows they are lost and knows the way home (the prodigal son).
The problem is with the last scenario because if you know what you can do and do not do it God is not there to make the choice for you since it is your choice.

bling · Sep 29, 2018

Dave L said:
People cannot repent unless they are saved. The flesh cannot stop being the flesh.

Repenting is just turning away mentally, like the prodigal son in his turning he was in just as bad of shape, it is only when the father see the turned person he jumps in and changes the child's situation. When the sinner "turns" mentally God is right there literally at his elbow.

MDC · Sep 29, 2018

bling said:
Repenting is just turning away mentally, like the prodigal son in his turning he was in just as bad of shape, it is only when the father see the turned person he jumps in and changes the child's situation. When the sinner "turns" mentally God is right there literally at his elbow.

Are you capable of living sinless?

TCassidy · Sep 29, 2018

jesus316 said:
Saved by appropriating Christ's sacrifice by faith.

And where did that faith come from?

royal priest · Sep 29, 2018

bling said:
The problem is with the last scenario because if you know what you can do and do not do it God is not there to make the choice for you since it is your choice.

Unless you are one of the elect. In this case, God caused the prodigal to do the right thing by making him miserable, and to recognize his only hope was in returning to his father.

Bobber · Sep 29, 2018

royal priest said:
Actually, the Calvinist would acknowledge they would not have received the inheritance unless they had been chosen by an outside party. Then they would do everything in their power to make their calling and election sure. Of course, it might not work out in the end, but that would be okay, because that too would have been according to the will of God.

They'd try to make their calling and election sure? Why wouldn't a Calvinist say that'd be a rather presumptuous thing to do! It's all God according to them. If God wanted their calling and election sure they'd say HE does it NOT THEM. So that's a question I ask Calvinists now. Why would God tell you to make your calling and election sure. If you're the elect regardless of what you do and can't change it why the warning?

Bobber · Sep 29, 2018

TCassidy said:
And where did that faith come from?

The word of God which goes out to ALL.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Rom 10:17

royal priest · Sep 29, 2018

Bobber said:
They'd try to make their calling and election sure? Why wouldn't a Calvinist say that'd be a rather presumptuous thing to do! It's all God according to them. If God wanted their calling and election sure they'd say HE does it NOT THEM. So that's a question I ask Calvinists now. Why would God tell you to make your calling and election sure. If you're the elect regardless of what you do and can't change it why the warning?

How else can one be sure they are of the called and elected?

TCassidy · Sep 29, 2018

Bobber said:
The word of God which goes out to ALL.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Rom 10:17

So all who hear the Gospel have faith?

Pneuma3 · Sep 29, 2018

royal priest said:
Are you suggesting if God had forseen that not even a single person had made the "choice", then Jesus would have died in vain?

royal priest said:
His determination does not remove our exercise to say no to one thing and yes to another.

No I am asking if one is predestined to make a choice then how is that a choice?in other words does not being predestinated take away choice? and if not why not? and if so what do you do with those elect who are predetinated?

we are not talking about foreknowledge here we are talking about predestinate, they are not the same thing.

Bobber · Sep 30, 2018

TCassidy said:
So all who hear the Gospel have faith?

Do they have any excuse not to have?

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.
Rom 10:17

Dave L · Sep 30, 2018

bling said:
Repenting is just turning away mentally, like the prodigal son in his turning he was in just as bad of shape, it is only when the father see the turned person he jumps in and changes the child's situation. When the sinner "turns" mentally God is right there literally at his elbow.

But your motive is off and in itself sinful apart from the New birth.

Bobber · Sep 30, 2018

royal priest said:
How else can one be sure they are of the called and elected?

But...from a Calvinists perspective.....you're either the elect or you're not. If you're not there's absolutely nothing you can do to become one. And some of them would say about this verse 'Well it's really just to confirm in your own heart that you are' Well that won't work . Because if they do all the many things it takes to confirm that you are and if you have desire to be the elect such would mean somebody in Total Depravity actually desired God. Or think of it this way...a Calvinist challenges the Apostle Peter and says look because I desire God that has to mean I'm one of the elect. Why are you telling me to make my calling and election sure. Because I desire to be that should be enough.

royal priest · Sep 30, 2018

Bobber said:
But...from a Calvinists perspective.....you're either the elect or you're not. If you're not there's absolutely nothing you can do to become one. And some of them would say about this verse 'Well it's really just to confirm in your own heart that you are' Well that won't work . Because if they do all the many things it takes to confirm that you are and if you have desire to be the elect such would mean somebody in Total Depravity actually desired God. Or think of it this way...a Calvinist challenges the Apostle Peter and says look because I desire God that has to mean I'm one of the elect. Why are you telling me to make my calling and election sure. Because I desire to be that should be enough.

Although salvation is monergistic, God uses means to accomplish it. Faith and repentance included

TCassidy · Sep 30, 2018

Bobber said:
Do they have any excuse not to have?

So you admit you can't answer the question?

bling · Sep 30, 2018

MDC said:
Are you capable of living sinless?

The Holy Spirit within me will not be involved in sin, so if and when I allow the Spirit to be a part of what I am doing I do not sin. Unfortunately I quench the Spirit far to often.
It is not that "I" am capable, but He is capable who lives within me.

Saved based on God's foreknowledge or God's random choice?

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