Satan's Downfall (Beginning)

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

If God stuck with justice only, Sis, where would any of US be?

Sorry you feel the need to unsubscribe. Vaya con dios.

 

[childofgod57]

instead of arguing this n that here and going over the same old questions with people puffed up and showing off their intelligence in christian doctirine and theology just go visit some old person in their home,offer them companionship,clean the house for them,go shopping for their food,you will go home having done something worthwhile and PLEASING to god

 

[AgapeBible]

Wow, this is amazing, I was just thinking of this, squint, I really have to say, you are making God out to be the bad guy, if he created evil and made Satan evil than it's like it's his fault for tempting us and he is a cruel god because we couldn't help it and we had no choice. Why would God want even one precious human soul to suffer agony and torture for all eternity in hell if he loves us human beings so much?

Why can't God forgive fallen angels if they repent? Has Lucifer ever repented of his rebellion? I think not. if humans are forgiven millions of times for all the myriad of sins they commit, why can't angels be forgiven for even one mistake or sin or rebellion? Jesus did say love your enemies. Does God really love and pity Satan? I pity him because of his future doom in the lake of fire, and an eternity without love. Moriah, I think you are really cool, I would like to talk to you more may be introduce you to my writings.

 

[squint]

Wow, this is amazing, I was just thinking of this, squint, I really have to say, you are making God out to be the bad guy, if he created evil and made Satan evil than it's like it's his fault for tempting us and he is a cruel god because we couldn't help it and we had no choice.

Sorry, that's called an argument from an excluded middle, meaning that the postulations you put forth do not encompass the possible questions or answers...

Why would God want even one precious human soul to suffer agony and torture for all eternity in hell if he loves us human beings so much?

Never said He did. I believe that all mankind are God's offspring and are therefore already perfect "even while" in the constant process of "BEING" perfected, so what's your beef?

Why can't God forgive fallen angels if they repent?

Who said fallen angels were EVER Holy? Scriptures do not present that. The term angel merely means "messenger" and they can be "Holy," or "men" or "evil/resisting/liar" messengers.

Has Lucifer ever repented of his rebellion? I think not.

No, and he won't. Satan was a liar and a murderer from the beginning and THAT'S exactly "how" God made him/it. There is "no truth" IN Satan. It's a mere TOOL that God uses and God will discard when finished using it.

if humans are forgiven millions of times for all the myriad of sins they commit, why can't angels be forgiven for even one mistake or sin or rebellion?

And why couldn't God have made them perfect to begin with? It is far more likely that the devil and his messengers were created evil from the beginning by God and will be eventually discarded. It's a dire mistake to think that the "anti-Christ" spirit is going to change from "what" God made them.

Jesus did say love your enemies. Does God really love and pity Satan? I pity him because of his future doom in the lake of fire, and an eternity without love.

We were never advised in scripture to love Satan or devils nor did Jesus show us that as an example, but rather opposed and resisted them as offensive to Himself. As to Satanic salvation, that is NEVER presented specifically to the devil or his messengers and IS THEREFORE A LIE....get it?


Now you can worship your own fanciful imaginations in these matters of SATANIC SALVATION and pat other people who are FALSELY LED to bow to their imaginations on these matters all ya want and try to belittle me for POINTING OUT THE OBVIOUS FLAW in that guesswork. IF it were in scripture, THEN you'd have a point and I WOULD AGREE! But IT AIN'T so it's just another lie of the DEVIL presented "in" mankind....

 

[AgapeBible]

I know there is nothing in scripture that says Satan or his fallen angels will be saved. So it probably is not true. I don't understand why God created evil in the first place. Why does it have to exist? Why do so many people have to hurt, suffer and die so young? Why even create evil and start the ball rolling? I suppose if God did not create evil, things would be so boring if every thing were perfect there would be nothing to strive for, to fight for, no challenges. I guess you cannot truly know joy unless you know pain and sorrow as well. Still....Christianity is not the most popular religion in the world today, and when I think of so many people without Christ going to hell.....it breaks my heart, and makes me cry, I cannot stand the though of caring people who try to be good suffering like that for all eternity.

 

[squint]

I know there is nothing in scripture that says Satan or his fallen angels will be saved. So it probably is not true.

Well, THANK YOU! It's not like many of us christian universalists haven't wrestled with this particular topic.

All I ever ask for "any" position is to have a toehold in scripture. I have examined this particular subject for years now and just cannot find even a specific HINT for Satanic salvation, and if there were one, I'd take it as a close enuf...and go with it...but I won't bow to my own imaginations in these matters...no matter how good they make me feel or how rosy they may seem.

I don't understand why God created evil in the first place.

I don't know if you've ever heard of Jacob Boehme (sp. check) but he has some very interesting writings on this contemplation...

IF God Unbound, Supreme, Almighty is ABOVE and SUPERIOR to all things...then by even human logic all other things are relegated to LESS THAN God, and therefore are LESS than perfect...But God Remains ABLE to contemplate and control ANY FORM OF THOUGHT...including EVIL...and the creation and use of IT. I'm OK with that. Kinda like the Wizard and Mickey Mouse in Fantasia...

Why does it have to exist? Why do so many people have to hurt, suffer and die so young? Why even create evil and start the ball rolling?

Paul puts forth some very compelling arguments for the justification of suffering, sin and death...by stating that no matter what we are presently experiencing, it will not even come close to comparisions to what awaits us "eternally." IF God has chosen to make us suffer under sin, evil and lack and death...we simply have to trust that He has His Reasons...and in that we have both HOPE and TRUST in Him formed within ourselves...and hopefully we then carry that which is eternally worthy forward in ourselves as well.

I suppose if God did not create evil, things would be so boring if every thing were perfect there would be nothing to strive for, to fight for, no challenges.

Agreed. The interesting part of this entire contemplation of EVIL is "how" God can turn EVERYTHING around and make it ALL work out for a fantastic finish...putting aside EVERY mark that evil does, even making EVIL His slave...and showing it to be AS NOTHING comparative to HIS GREATNESS...and to me that will be an awesome thing...and we and all of creation are then "formed" in some way by that exposure to EVIL and DEATH.

I guess you cannot truly know joy unless you know pain and sorrow as well. Still....Christianity is not the most popular religion in the world today, and when I think of so many people without Christ going to hell.....it breaks my heart, and makes me cry, I cannot stand the though of caring people who try to be good suffering like that for all eternity.

I can assure you fully from scripture that not a single person will be sent to hell...other than the hell we are presently immersed with in this present world. All mankind are Gods offspring, and He will not lose a single one of us...and ALL OF CREATION will experience the freedom of Gods Children...

Word...take it to the heavenly bank...

enjoy!

squint

 

[tansy]

I may be going off on a tangent, if so my apologies, but it occurred to me whilst reading Agapedragons post, that Scripture says that Jesus was made perfect through obedience, so maybe Adam and Eve also had tobe made perfect through obedience--unfortunately they failed. For me , it's difficult enoigh understanding all the ins and outs of Man,s fall, let alone all about Lucifer, though would love to know all the answers.

 

[squint]

I may be going off on a tangent, if so my apologies, but it occurred to me whilst reading Agapedragons post, that Scripture says that Jesus was made perfect through obedience, so maybe Adam and Eve also had tobe made perfect through obedience--unfortunately they failed. For me , it's difficult enoigh understanding all the ins and outs of Man,s fall, let alone all about Lucifer, though would love to know all the answers.

Perhaps you could consider yourself as scriptures present you are as a human being...Gods offspring...(ref. Acts 17:23-39 for example)

Adam is also presented in scripture as being Gods son...(ref. Luke 3:38 for example)

As such it is unlikely that you are technically 'imperfect' BUT, the big BUT here is somewhat hard to swallow...

That in the same LUMP (your and my body) there is a vessel of HONOR (that would be you and I and all mankind as Gods offspring)

but the other side of the coin is that also in our 'lump' is a vessel of dishonor, wrath and ultimately destruction...(ref. entire chapter of Romans 9)

Jesus spoke to devils in the lumps of mankinds bodies on nearly every page of the N.T. so it is very unlikely that Jesus spoke falsely about their coming destruction...but the reality is that these OTHER ENTITIES are in our flesh currently...

Paul describes this very adroitly in Romans 7:17-21 where he describes the sin indwelling his flesh as NO LONGER I, also stating therein that EVIL WAS PRESENT WITH HIM...

Now if an Apostle can admit THAT, and even admit that he carried a special messenger of SATAN to remind of of THIS FACT...we should certainly be able to admit the same...which I do...admit to in the light of these disclosures...

So my friend of humanity, what causes YOU to BLAME AND CONDEMN Adam and Eve is NOT YOU, but that which has BLINDED YOU and MAKES YOU condemn Adam and Eve, Gods CHILDREN, as FAILURES...

when that IS NOT THE CASE...

Welcome to a dose of present reality...

We are not alone in our flesh and minds...

We OVERCOME In His Love to us all, and we do not BLAME AND ACCUSE OUR FELLOW MAN...

We should KNOW in which direction to LOOK for the "causes" of ALL sin and evil...and it's NOT from Gods offspring...

Don't be a SLAVE...it just ain't cool.

enjoy!

squint

 

[k2svpete]

Try this on for size folks.

Satan/Devil/Lucifer is not a supernatual being.

Now that you've all recovered from that shock......

Lets look at the language and the words used,

Satan (Heb) = The adversary, enemy, accuser.
Devil (Gk) = accuser, slanderer.

Now using these words in context let's have a look at how things read. When Christ rebuked Peter and said 'get behind me Satan.' was he not talking to Peter? By trying to obstruct what had to be done for our redemption Peter was being an adversary to God's plan, hence 'a' satan.

God's word is as God, that is consistent. Nowhere in the old testament is there reference to a personal devil. In the spirit of the language of the region satan or devil is used as a personification of sin, much as the characters of any parable are used to personify sections of society or attributes.

Before anyone starts with Isiah 14:12-15 or Ezek 28:11-15, these scriptures are prophecies against the King of Babylon and Prince of Tyre. Read the whole chapters to get the appropriate context.

So who was it in the Garden of Eden? We are told, a serpent. Further it is stated that it was a wild creature but was more cunning than the others. No mention of Satan or the Devil. Any altering of the scripture or interpretation of this to mean Satan is fanciful and not backed up by anything in the bible.

Paul tells us in Romans that human nature is at enmity with God. So human nature is at odds with God.....that would mean that our sin nature, not a mythical third party is what works against us living in God's perfect will. No one to blame but ourselves, how human is it to look for something to place blame on. Adam did it when questioned by God, he blamed Eve. Eve blamed the serpent for deceiving her.

The reader must remember that the New Testament was written at a time when Grecian philosophy and religion had permeated much of the known world through conquest and trade. The NT was written in Greek! As with any mixing of cultures there is a transferring of ideas and speech. Note the increase in the use of demons etc. in the NT. All the instances where Christ cast out demons can be identified as illnesses, usually mental, which were not understood by the people of the time. Even as recently as 100 years ago people still believed that epileptics were possessed.

God was described as a satan in the old testament, compare 1 Chron 21:1 to 2 Sam 24:1. Who's going to put their hand up and say that God is the same being that Satan or the Devil has been personified as?

Didn't think so.

 

[squint]

Try this on for size folks.

Satan/Devil/Lucifer is not a supernatual being.

Now that you've all recovered from that shock......

Lets look at the language and the words used,

Satan (Heb) = The adversary, enemy, accuser.
Devil (Gk) = accuser, slanderer.

Now using these words in context let's have a look at how things read. When Christ rebuked Peter and said 'get behind me Satan.' was he not talking to Peter? By trying to obstruct what had to be done for our redemption Peter was being an adversary to God's plan, hence 'a' satan.

Well, using your logic Jesus spoke to Himself AS SATAN in the desert as well eh? lol with that one.

God's word is as God, that is consistent. Nowhere in the old testament is there reference to a personal devil.

hmmm? A "personal devil?" What does that mean exactly? The serpent certainly "interacted" with God in the Garden of Eden. Satan was clearly depicted in Job. Evil spirits are not without many notations in the Old Testament with even God Himself Directing them.

In the spirit of the language of the region satan or devil is used as a personification of sin, much as the characters of any parable are used to personify sections of society or attributes.

Before anyone starts with Isiah 14:12-15 or Ezek 28:11-15, these scriptures are prophecies against the King of Babylon and Prince of Tyre. Read the whole chapters to get the appropriate context.

Didn't know the Prince of Tyre was in the Garden of Eden.

So who was it in the Garden of Eden? We are told, a serpent. Further it is stated that it was a wild creature but was more cunning than the others. No mention of Satan or the Devil. Any altering of the scripture or interpretation of this to mean Satan is fanciful and not backed up by anything in the bible.

hmmmm....? Only a literal talking deceiving snake then eh? lol

Paul tells us in Romans that human nature is at enmity with God.

Sorry, the word "human" is your insertion.

So human nature is at odds with God.....that would mean that our sin nature, not a mythical third party is what works against us living in God's perfect will.

Well, ya still got that little problem of Jesus speaking to Satan in the desert...if there is NO SUCH "entity" then JESUS was in effect SATAN...

In addition their is the abundance of scriptures stating that "devils" were cast OUT from mankind.

And Satan "entering" Judas also poses your position some serious issues. Not to mention you making Gods children whom all of Israel are DEVILS if there are no devils but them...that makes God the Father of DEVILS! Yeah, you got it goin' on don't ya? lol

No one to blame but ourselves, how human is it to look for something to place blame on. Adam did it when questioned by God, he blamed Eve. Eve blamed the serpent for deceiving her.

If God in Christ is NOT COUNTING sins against mankind, why are YOU?

The reader must remember that the New Testament was written at a time when Grecian philosophy and religion had permeated much of the known world through conquest and trade. The NT was written in Greek! As with any mixing of cultures there is a transferring of ideas and speech. Note the increase in the use of demons etc. in the NT. All the instances where Christ cast out demons can be identified as illnesses, usually mental, which were not understood by the people of the time. Even as recently as 100 years ago people still believed that epileptics were possessed.

Patent falsehood.

God was described as a satan in the old testament, compare 1 Chron 21:1 to 2 Sam 24:1. Who's going to put their hand up and say that God is the same being that Satan or the Devil has been personified as?

Didn't think so.

Well, that's pretty much the track you are on if you have no other entity(s) besides God and mankind.

 

[k2svpete]

Well, using your logic Jesus spoke to Himself AS SATAN in the desert as well eh? lol with that one.



hmmm? A "personal devil?" What does that mean exactly? The serpent certainly "interacted" with God in the Garden of Eden. Satan was clearly depicted in Job. Evil spirits are not without many notations in the Old Testament with even God Himself Directing them.


Didn't know the Prince of Tyre was in the Garden of Eden.



hmmmm....? Only a literal talking deceiving snake then eh? lol



Sorry, the word "human" is your insertion.



Well, ya still got that little problem of Jesus speaking to Satan in the desert...if there is NO SUCH "entity" then JESUS was in effect SATAN...

In addition their is the abundance of scriptures stating that "devils" were cast OUT from mankind.

And Satan "entering" Judas also poses your position some serious issues. Not to mention you making Gods children whom all of Israel are DEVILS if there are no devils but them...that makes God the Father of DEVILS! Yeah, you got it goin' on don't ya? lol



If God in Christ is NOT COUNTING sins against mankind, why are YOU?



Patent falsehood.



Well, that's pretty much the track you are on if you have no other entity(s) besides God and mankind.

Your train of thought is rather obscure but I shall endeavor to address you points regardless.

No, Christ was speaking with an adversary in the desert. That adversary may well have been one or more Pharisees or Saducees who were trying to tempt him through the use of scripture. Christ answered with scripture as we are exhorted to.

A personal devil is what is preached by much of the world, a being of pure evil that exists to ensnare mankind. Yes, the serpent interacted with God, Adam and Eve in the Garden on Eden. Do you doubt that God has the ability to communicate with all creation? Again, in Job we have an adversary, someone who was working against him. Check out the root words for the old testament references.

No, the Prince of Tyre was not in Eden. Do not be obtuse. The Ezekial reference is often used by people as a reference to support the existence of a devil in the common understanding.

Yes, a literal talking deceiving snake, read your bible sunshine, it's what it says.

From Roman Ch 8-
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

The carnal mind produces our human nature.

Go back to the root of words and passages, the enemy or accuser entered Judas. Enemy or accuser of what? The carnal mind is at enmity with God so one can conclude that Judas was drawn by his carnal mind to betray Christ in return for money. Money being the root of all evil.

If you have a person on the ground having convulsions, frothing at the mouth and soiling themselves what is your first instinct? From your reasoning you would be having an exorcism as it 'has to be a demon'. How about an epileptic fit? The many with seven demons in him - multiple personality disorder. You wish me to continue? God gave us minds and intellect to examine and learn, not to be obtuse and rude as you have demonstrated here.

The track I am on is that there are no other entities other than God and mankind! God was acting as an adversary to Israel. You have exactly the same narrative with God mentioned in Samuel and satan in Chronicles.

Its understandable that you resist the notions of having something other than yourself to blame for your sin but I suggest you have a good long look at scripture in context and see if your arguments stack up to support the existence of a supernatural satan.

 

[squint]

Your train of thought is rather obscure but I shall endeavor to address you points regardless.

No, Christ was speaking with an adversary in the desert. That adversary may well have been one or more Pharisees or Saducees who were trying to tempt him through the use of scripture. Christ answered with scripture as we are exhorted to.

I see. So you feel comfortable relegating that event to your own guesswork and inserting things into the scripture that do not exist? Is that some sort of proper methodology?

A personal devil is what is preached by much of the world, a being of pure evil that exists to ensnare mankind.

Still don't know what you are getting at using the term "personal devil."

The devil is presented as a predator/abuser of mankind.

Yes, the serpent interacted with God, Adam and Eve in the Garden on Eden. Do you doubt that God has the ability to communicate with all creation?

Well, if a snake can talk so can a devil.

Again, in Job we have an adversary, someone who was working against him. Check out the root words for the old testament references.

Who was Satan in that case then?

No, the Prince of Tyre was not in Eden. Do not be obtuse. The Ezekial reference is often used by people as a reference to support the existence of a devil in the common understanding.

You maybe should brush up on the reading skills:

Ezek. 28:

12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. 13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God;

Yes, a literal talking deceiving snake, read your bible sunshine, it's what it says.

Musta been there in the Garden with the king of Tyrus eh?

From Roman Ch 8-
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

The carnal mind produces our human nature.

Sorry pal. You have inserted the term "human nature" all on your own.

Paul was very clear in Romans 7:17-21 about the fact that the sin indwelling his flesh was "NO LONGER I" stating the position twice. If the sin indwelling him was NO LONGER PAUL...who or what was "NO LONGER I?"

Paul also stated that whenever he desired to do good, that EVIL was present with him. So was Paul EVIL?

Paul also admitted that a messenger of Satan was given to him to buffet his flesh. Was it "just Paul" who was the "messenger of Satan?"

Go back to the root of words and passages, the enemy or accuser entered Judas. Enemy or accuser of what? The carnal mind is at enmity with God so one can conclude that Judas was drawn by his carnal mind to betray Christ in return for money. Money being the root of all evil.

I see. So Judas was Satan and ENTERED HIMSELF? Is that your final answer? Do you have anything else you'd like to make up today?

If you have a person on the ground having convulsions, frothing at the mouth and soiling themselves what is your first instinct? From your reasoning

Not so fast there buddy. You don't know me nearly well enough to tell me what I think yet alone insert your thoughts as mine so back off.

you would be having an exorcism as it 'has to be a demon'.

Au contraire my friend. I don't find scriptures presenting ANY of us to be free from that working, so no. Ain't happenin.' I have no issues with medical care and I certainly can't say all physical ailments are demonic, IF ANY. I do know that God could have made us ALL perfect in both physical and mental sense IF He wanted to but He didn't so we deal with the facts...just as we deal with scriptural facts.

How about an epileptic fit? The many with seven demons in him - multiple personality disorder. You wish me to continue? God gave us minds and intellect to examine and learn, not to be obtuse and rude as you have demonstrated here.

Look, I don't buy the psuedo-science of psychology. It's just more guesswork and far from any determinative form of quantifiable empirically based science in MOST cases.

The track I am on is that there are no other entities other than God and mankind!

But you see that is only a non-scripture based opinion. You are certainly welcome to hold that, but from any scriptural standpoint most forms of orthodoxy would say you are quite off base on this matter.

I have no issues with "evil" as a separate working power that mankind is "subject to." With that understanding I have NO NEED TO BLAME MY FELLOW MAN do I? The "devil" for me then becomes a convenient shill so I don't have to blame my fellow man.

God was acting as an adversary to Israel. You have exactly the same narrative with God mentioned in Samuel and satan in Chronicles.

Your statement of those being identical narratives is a gross mis-statement, but in either case, either by direct involvment or by the use of an evil agent/Satan, which is NOT without scriptural precedent, beyond any doubt God IS INVOLVED with "all things" and there is no getting God off the hook in any of these matters. Even without an "evil agent" such as Satan GOD IS STILL ON THE HOOK of implication either by NOT having intervened or by not having made things better.

I also have no problems with God directing EVIL. That is a fact beyond dispute. God would be considered quite evil by many in flooding the world and killing all it's inhabitants or destroying entire cities with fire and brimstone, or even issuing orders to execute women and babies.

Its understandable that you resist the notions of having something other than yourself to blame for your sin

Whoa whoa whoa again there pally. I never said there was not a battle did I?

but I suggest you have a good long look at scripture in context and see if your arguments stack up to support the existence of a supernatural satan.

Well, I can tell you that the insertion of one's own imaginations into these matters such as placing unstated people in the desert with Jesus so you can get Jesus off the hook as being Satan is equivocal to just making up your own story and that methodology of course does not work.

There are literally thousands of entities stated to have been separated from mankind in the Gospels and you have provided NOTHING to justify your imaginations in these matters other than throw up "potential medical causes" but that does not explain the interactions and speakings that Jesus openly had with those entities IN mankind... IF it were only mankind, then the usage of such terms and accounts would equate to a lie and if it were just man and God involved, there would have been no use in inserting the other parties. But of course to "modern" understandings, that is just not possible because you simply can't accept such things and as such, you just insert your own imaginations in place of text.

enjoy!

squint

 

[k2svpete]

Alrighty then.....

Origin of Sin is covered under:

James 1
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.


Mark 7
20 And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within and defile a man.”
cross-referenced to -
Jeremiah 17
9 “ The heart is deceitful above all things,
And desperately wicked;
Who can know it?

Satan as an adversary is illustrated in these passages:

2 Sam
1 Again the anger of the LORD was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, “Go, number Israel and Judah.”
cross-referenced to-
1 Chron 21
1 Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel.

Num 22
22 Then God’s anger was aroused because he went, and the Angel of the LORD took His stand in the way as an adversary against him. And he was riding on his donkey, and his two servants were with him.
(Same root word for adversary and satan)

1 Kings 11
14 Now the LORD raised up an adversary against Solomon, Hadad the Edomite; he was a descendant of the king in Edom.
(Same root word for adversary and satan)

Matt 16
23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”
(No mention of being mindful of the things of the devil)

The following verses have the same root word used as either devil or slanderer.

John 6
70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?”
(guess that one was Judas eh?)

1 Tim 3
11 Likewise, their wives must be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things.
cross-referenced to-
Titus 2
3 the older women likewise, that they be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things—
(doesn't sit well referring to peole's wives as devils does it?)

2 Tim 3
2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
(again slanderers used instead of devils)

Heb 2
14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
cross-referenced to -
Heb 9
26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
(sin has the power of death, not the devil)

Romans 5
21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
and
Romans 6
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
cross-referenced to -
Rom 7
17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
(this shows that 'devil' is synonymous with 'sin'. Paul acknowledges that sin dwells in his flesh)

The satan of Job was an unnamed adversary, a man, as he 'walked up and down on the earth.' (Job 1:7)

Job himself attributes his afflictions as having been brought about by God. Job 19 & Job 2
21 “Have pity on me, have pity on me, O you my friends,
For the hand of God has struck me!
&
10 But he said to her, “You speak as one of the foolish women speaks. Shall we indeed accept good from God, and shall we not accept adversity?” In all this Job did not sin with his lips.

Even Job's family and acquaintences acknowledged this:
Job 42
11 Then all his brothers, all his sisters, and all those who had been his acquaintances before, came to him and ate food with him in his house; and they consoled him and comforted him for all the adversity that the LORD had brought upon him. Each one gave him a piece of silver and each a ring of gold.


Ezekiel 28
11 Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 12 “Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD:


“ You were the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.
14 “ You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.

(This is a lamentation for the King of Tyre after the proclomation against him is vs 1-10. This passage does not require the king to have lived in the garden of Eden with Adam and Eve, that would be impossible as Tyre is a real place and this was a man who was being proclaimed against. The passage requires the king to have been in Eden at some stage. Eden is described as an extensive area in Gen 2:8/Ezek 27:23. Perhaps you should brush up on your comprehension skills?)

Serpent in Eden

Gen 3
1 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”
(Clearly states that the serpent was a beast and it talked)
13 And the LORD God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”
The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”
14 So the LORD God said to the serpent:
“ Because you have done this,
You are cursed more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you shall go,
And you shall eat dust
All the days of your life.
(God punishes the serpent for what it had done. No mention of a devil here.)

Entrance of satan/devil into Judas

Luke 22
3 Then Satan entered Judas, surnamed Iscariot, who was numbered among the twelve.
&
31 And the Lord said, “Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you (plural word), that he may sift you as wheat.

John 13
2 And supper being ended, the devil having already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray Him,
&
27 Now after the piece of bread, Satan entered him. Then Jesus said to him, “What you do, do quickly.”

So, you've got references to the devil and satan in the same chapter here, by the same author. Who's the supernatural one? Why the distinction in language?

The conversation with Peter in Luke suggests that the chief priests were looking to use some of the disciples for their own evil purposes and John suggests that Judas succumbed to an emissary of the chief priests to be used for their evil purposes.

Let's examin this verse in Acts for a parallel passage:

Acts 5
3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? 4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”
(Here we have satan filling his heart and Ananias conceiving sin in his heart. Sin and satan being the same thing.)

Temptation in the wilderness

Matt 4
1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. 2 And when He had fasted forty days and forty nights, afterward He was hungry. 3 Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.”
4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’”[a]
5 Then the devil took Him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, 6 and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written:


‘ He shall give His angels charge over you,’

and,


‘ In their hands they shall bear you up,
Lest you dash your foot against a stone.’”[b]

7 Jesus said to him, “It is written again, ‘You shall not tempt the LORD your God.’”[c]
8 Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.”
10 Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you,[d] Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve.’”[e]
11 Then the devil left Him, and behold, angels came and ministered to Him.

The essence of temptation rests in subtelty, do you really think that being confronted with a fallen angel would've been subtle?
Jesus was tempted in all points as we are (Heb 4:15) but who has engaged into a discussion with a fallen angel devil?
A temptation must also be plausible, only God has the power to give to people what he will (Dan 4:32).
These temptations are quite likely subjective, in that these are conflicts within Jesus but presented as a narrative.
James 1
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

No reference to anything other than God's existence and power here:

Isaiah 46
9 Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,

Isaiah 40
25 “ To whom then will you liken Me,
Or to whom shall I be equal?” says the Holy One.
26 Lift up your eyes on high,
And see who has created these things,
Who brings out their host by number;
He calls them all by name,
By the greatness of His might
And the strength of His power;
Not one is missing.

Psalm 139
2 You know my sitting down and my rising up;
You understand my thought afar off.
3 You comprehend my path and my lying down,
And are acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word on my tongue,
But behold, O LORD, You know it altogether.
5 You have hedged me behind and before,
And laid Your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
It is high, I cannot attain it.
7 Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?

So God is everywhere, is without equal and there is no other. No mention of a devil or satan. If a devil or satan were to exist as in the popular definition it would conflict with these scriptures.

Ps 5
4 For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness,
Nor shall evil dwell with You.
5 The boastful shall not stand in Your sight;

and

Hab 1
13 You are of purer eyes than to behold evil,
And cannot look on wickedness.

So if the popular construct of satan were true then God could not look upon it and satan could not be in the sight of God. As God is everywhere then where can satan or the devil be? Answer, nowhere.

 

[squint]

Alrighty then....

Something you didn't like? Oh, maybe the Garden thingy?

Satan as an adversary is illustrated in these passages:

There is no Satan in your theory, so why bother? In all these instances you really need to re-write that term and just insert MAN or GOD rather than pattycake around with fancy footwork trying to get where you want to be.

The following verses have the same root word used as either devil or slanderer.

Look, no one who engages in these subjects is going to be denying the multiple scripture quotes.

What will be in question is YOUR reflections upon those quotes in comparisons and of course you are certainly WELCOME to retain any type of fantasy you desire to see in these matters. I certainly won't question those as fantasies. But these things are up for semi-critical debate when promoted as "facts."

So to put up scriptures and then make statements that equate to "this is how it is" is rather pointless without some critique.

To say that the term Satan or devil simply has a meaning means nothing. The term man or God has meaning as well. So what? That is not the entirety of any of these matters.

The satan of Job was an unnamed adversary, a man, as he 'walked up and down on the earth.' (Job 1:7)

Job himself attributes his afflictions as having been brought about by God. Job 19 & Job 2

Yes, at the request of Satan who "asked" God to allow him to afflict Job. So who was Satan in that case? A ticked off envious neighbor? Able to give Job physical ailments? I mean really. In your pitch you really have to make God Satan and you've made that pitch already.

Even Job's family and acquaintences acknowledged this:

(This is a lamentation for the King of Tyre after the proclomation against him is vs 1-10. This passage does not require the king to have lived in the garden of Eden with Adam and Eve, that would be impossible as Tyre is a real place and this was a man who was being proclaimed against. The passage requires the king to have been in Eden at some stage.

heh heh heh. So now you do admit that the king of Tyre was in the Garden of Eden...nice...when did that transpire btw??? He just waltzed right by the guards right? Musta had a pass?

Eden is described as an extensive area in Gen 2:8/Ezek 27:23. Perhaps you should brush up on your comprehension skills?)

Well, I'll definately have to improve my fantasy insertion to Word text skills... You do understand that to promote that some person went to the Garden of Eden after Adam and Eve would provide most Word students a very good chuckle...as it has me. I love the revision from the last post as well:

"No, the Prince of Tyre was not in Eden."

So is this post your new and improved version? heh heh heh...I love this stuff. Quite funny.

Serpent in Eden

(Clearly states that the serpent was a beast and it talked)

(God punishes the serpent for what it had done. No mention of a devil here.)

Doesn't have to be. We have an excellent citing right here.

Revelation 20:2
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan

Entrance of satan/devil into Judas

Luke 22
3 Then Satan entered Judas, surnamed Iscariot, who was numbered among the twelve.
&
31 And the Lord said, “Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you (plural word), that he may sift you as wheat.

John 13
2 And supper being ended, the devil having already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray Him,
&
27 Now after the piece of bread, Satan entered him. Then Jesus said to him, “What you do, do quickly.”

So, you've got references to the devil and satan in the same chapter here, by the same author. Who's the supernatural one? Why the distinction in language?

The conversation with Peter in Luke suggests that the chief priests were looking to use some of the disciples for their own evil purposes and John suggests that Judas succumbed to an emissary of the chief priests to be used for their evil purposes.

I see? So YOU'RE saying that the CHIEF PRIEST was really THE DEVIL and SATAN here, right? And the CHIEF PRIEST "entered" JUDAS in "thought form" right? And presumably Jesus COULD have cast out that CHIEF PRIEST thought form, but DIDN'T...right?

Here, take this little lesson and come back with a legible response.

ALL of Israel's people were taught by O.T. scriptures that they ARE GOD'S CHILDREN...(example ref. Deut. 14:1 / Ps. 82:6)

SOooo, ANYtime you want to make PETER or the CHIEF PRIEST or ANY person of ISRAEL in the entire BIBLE Satan or the Devil, you are then by simple connecting logic making A CHILD OF GOD Satan or the Devil and ALSO then thusly making GOD the FATHER OF THE DEVIL and SATAN...

So put that tail in your mouth 'cause THAT'S WHERE YOU ARE AND WHAT YOU'RE DOING.... which does pose a great deal of scriptural difficulty.

Sooner or later you MUST admit that God IS SATAN...so spit it out now and get it over with...if you can swallow the 'logic' of your own medicine....???

I need a good laugh today anyway...

Let's examin this verse in Acts for a parallel passage:

Acts 5
3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? 4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”
(Here we have satan filling his heart and Ananias conceiving sin in his heart. Sin and satan being the same thing.)

Well, I'm glad you connected SATAN to SIN...that is a FACT...bravo!

So basically you are saying that ANANIAS filled HIS OWN HEART and the reference to SATAN really has nothing to do with anyone else OTHER THAN ANANIAS, right???

Please see previous note about making any person of Israel Satan...

Temptation in the wilderness

Matt 4
1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. 2 And when He had fasted forty days and forty nights, afterward He was hungry. 3 Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.”
4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’”[a]
5 Then the devil took Him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, 6 and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written:


‘ He shall give His angels charge over you,’

and,


‘ In their hands they shall bear you up,
Lest you dash your foot against a stone.’”[b]

7 Jesus said to him, “It is written again, ‘You shall not tempt the LORD your God.’”[c]
8 Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.”
10 Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you,[d] Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve.’”[e]
11 Then the devil left Him, and behold, angels came and ministered to Him.

The essence of temptation rests in subtelty, do you really think that being confronted with a fallen angel would've been subtle?

So you simply and conveniently INSERT AN UNKNOWN PHARISEE into the account so we don't have to see a genuine "personal devil" RIGHT?

Too bad we can't substantiate your fantasy here....it would have made things so much easier...if we can just make up our own stories...

Jesus was tempted in all points as we are (Heb 4:15) but who has engaged into a discussion with a fallen angel devil?
A temptation must also be plausible, only God has the power to give to people what he will (Dan 4:32).
These temptations are quite likely subjective, in that these are conflicts within Jesus but presented as a narrative.
James 1
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

No reference to anything other than God's existence and power here:

OK, you cite ALL of that and then say WHAT?

God is also stated as not being the Author of confusion, YET we certainly see God CONFUSING the languages of people at the Tower of Babel.

So God CAN deal with mankind DIFFERENTLY than how God deals with SATAN or DEVILS...and if both of these positions are OVERLAYED yet SEPARATE...things get's real interesting...

Paul the Apostle taught us in Romans 9 that in the "same lump" there is both a VESSEL OF HONOR and a VESSEL OF DISHONOR AND WRATH...

TWO separate vessels. Same LUMP.

Presumably the CHILD/OFFSPRING OF GOD whom ALL MANKIND ARE are the VESSEL OF HONOR...

And that would leave THE DEVIL AND HIS MESSENGERS in that SAME LUMP as the VESSELS OF DISHONOR AND WRATH....

Isaiah 46
9 Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,

Isaiah 40
25 “ To whom then will you liken Me,
Or to whom shall I be equal?” says the Holy One.
26 Lift up your eyes on high,
And see who has created these things,
Who brings out their host by number;
He calls them all by name,
By the greatness of His might
And the strength of His power;
Not one is missing.

Psalm 139
2 You know my sitting down and my rising up;
You understand my thought afar off.
3 You comprehend my path and my lying down,
And are acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word on my tongue,
But behold, O LORD, You know it altogether.
5 You have hedged me behind and before,
And laid Your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
It is high, I cannot attain it.
7 Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?

So God is everywhere, is without equal and there is no other. No mention of a devil or satan. If a devil or satan were to exist as in the popular definition it would conflict with these scriptures.

Why would it conflict? That is just an unsubstantiated statement.

God can create any "THING" and not BE "the same as" THAT THING...get it?

Ps 5
4 For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness,
Nor shall evil dwell with You.
5 The boastful shall not stand in Your sight;

and

Hab 1
13 You are of purer eyes than to behold evil,
And cannot look on wickedness.

So if the popular construct of satan were true then God could not look upon it and satan could not be in the sight of God. As God is everywhere then where can satan or the devil be? Answer, nowhere.

Oh please. That is about as lame as I have heard.

I understand that God is implicated IN THE ENTIRETY of ALL His Creation...

And since EVIL and SIN and DEATH exist, THEN God is fully implicated...that is not in dispute.

But you do have some issues that remain on the table...and you are already leaving the typical LITTER GROUND of unaddressed details behind you in this conversation. Don't know what your agenda is, nor do I really care, but your positions are certainly FAR FROM sound.

enjoy!

squint

 

[k2svpete]

Most of issues clearly stem from your inability to understand the nature of language. For one teensy little moment, try to forget your concept of satan being a supernatural being. Instead, use the meaning of the word combined with the declaration by Paul that the carnal mind is at enmity with God.

Satan/devil in popular belief is portrayed as the one who is at odds with God. Paul declares that this is the carnal mind.

So, satan = carnal mind, yes?

The carnal mind dwells within each one of us, your tangent about God being the father of satan rests on your portrayal of satan as a being, rather than sin.

Again, satan = sin.
Which leads to the conclusion sin = carnal mind.

This is funnily enough supported by:

James 1
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

Eden is described as a region and there was a graden in it. So the Prince of Tyre was not a contemporary with Adam and Eve but had been in Eden, the region.

So, you also demonstrate your limited understanding of prophecy with the citing of Rev 20. You are therefore stating that the dragon of Revelation 20 is commensurate with your perception of Satan as a being. You sir, need to do some study about what the dragon represents. God makes reference to the seed of the serpent in Gen when he sets forth his plan for our redemption. What did the serpent do? He called god a liar.

Gen 3
2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’”
4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.

The dragon represents that seed of deceit, the adversary to God's purpose.

So basically you are saying that ANANIAS filled HIS OWN HEART and the reference to SATAN really has nothing to do with anyone else OTHER THAN ANANIAS, right???

Pretty much, the carnal mind that dwells within each one of us filled his heart with deceit. Only when you bang on with the belief that satan is a supernatural being does it create confusion.

Your attempt at sarcasm with the temptation of Christ is clearly born by not actually reading the explanatory notes about this passage.
Daniel 4:32 - ...the Most High rules in the kingdom of men, and gives it to whomever He chooses.”
Clearly states that God is the one who gives kingdoms
Contrast with -
Matt 4:8 - Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.”

If this was the satan you portray, where is the temptation, Jesus knows the scriptures and knows that it is not in your satans power to give. The verse in Daniel is not used to rebuke the tempter, as would be logical if someone was offering you something they couldn't give. Instead he uses Deuteronomy 6:13 - You shall fear the LORD your God and serve Him.

Rather than sniping on with your glib sarcasm which proves nothing and your sweeping statements unsupported by scripture, if you are failed to be convinced of my argument through the presentation of relevant scriptures and application of logical thought in keeping with the meaning and context of these scriptures please, produce your own.

Go ahead, use scripture, in context, to support your position. I await your contruct.

 

[squint]

Most of issues clearly stem from your inability to understand the nature of language. For one teensy little moment, try to forget your concept of satan being a supernatural being.

Look, I've given you a couple very simple little comparisions to deal with on this matter.

#1- All mankind are Gods children/offspring. IF that is the case and MANKIND as you say are the only forms of DEVILS...THEN that makes GOD the Father of the DEVIL...

so...you need to come out of the closet on this matter and state that is YOUR position as THAT is the logical consequence of position.

#2- Scriptures present that there IS are ANTI-CHRIST spirits. In the light of the FACT that all people are God's children/offspring, I have no need to say that they are then BOTH anymore than I have need to say that God is EVIL...

Then you have the "NO LONGER I" observation of Paul's sin indwelling from Romans 7:17-21 and the EVIL PRESENT WITH HIM presentation, as well as the special messenger of Satan that was placed upon him...

And let's face it.

-The Chief Priest did not ENTER Judas...Satan did.
-The "Legion" that was cast out of the man of the Gadarenes was a separate identity group from that man
-Jesus Himself advised us that an evil spirit can depart from a man and still exist in Matt. 12:43 and Luke 11:24

THESE are but a SMALL sampling where you need to take your understanding and apply it with some sense because at this point you are simply on your own MAKE BELIEVE scenarios.

Instead, use the meaning of the word combined with the declaration by Paul that the carnal mind is at enmity with God.

But you see mankind are said to be SLAVES of sin. You wanted to blame ONLY your fellow man...even reterming carnal nature (which is the nature of a SLAVE) into only the "human nature." Slaveship indicates that there is a MASTER involved.

Satan/devil in popular belief is portrayed as the one who is at odds with God. Paul declares that this is the carnal mind.

Look, your MAKE BELIEVE stories are of NO INTEREST. Paul NEVER equated the CARNAL MIND as being SATAN...EVER...

You seem to want to just pluck those phony theories from THIN AIR...

So, satan = carnal mind, yes?

Only in your mind pal...and from scriptural understanding I could say where that comes from eh? And NOT blame you as Gods offspring...get it? Slaves just do what they are told. They LIE. The make things up. At the behest of SATAN who influences them to do so.

The carnal mind dwells within each one of us, your tangent about God being the father of satan rests on your portrayal of satan as a being, rather than sin.

Again, satan = sin.
Which leads to the conclusion sin = carnal mind.

You might as well throw the Bible away and just make up your own story. You are not the first person with ties to the mental health industry that I've had this dialog with. That's how YOU are programmed because you CANNOT BELIEVE there are ANTI-SPIRITUAL ENTITIES...and as such you are ANTI-WORD yourself...making things up that suit YOUR altered form of psuedo-science UNDERstandings, making God's children devils, denying the existence of separate anti-Christ spirits that are neither God nor mankind.

This is funnily enough supported by:

James 1
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

Eden is described as a region and there was a graden in it. So the Prince of Tyre was not a contemporary with Adam and Eve but had been in Eden, the region.

Look, IF you have SIN INDWELLING your flesh, which YES, is of the devil that is YOUR FLESH and YOUR BURDEN...

But that does not logically connect that YOU are the SAME AS what you are bound with in the flesh...so just as PAUL was given a SPECIAL MESSENGER OF SATAN to buffet his flesh...that SATANIC ANGEL was NOT THE SAME AS PAUL but THAT WAS HIS as it pertained to HIS FLESH...get it?

So, apply that to James. Yes, whatever form of "tempting desires" that God has bundled up in any of our flesh and minds IS OURS as it pertains to our flesh and minds, BUT THAT STILL DOES NOT MAKE IT THE SAME AS US.

Each of us bears our own respective burdens in this present life.

So, you also demonstrate your limited understanding of prophecy with the citing of Rev 20. You are therefore stating that the dragon of Revelation 20 is commensurate with your perception of Satan as a being.

Look, all of those entities are connected RIGHT THERE in that scripture set. Make of it what you will. You wanted a TALKING SNAKE only in the Garden. Scriptures connect the SERPENT with SATAN...right there in Rev. 20 whether you LIKE IT OR NOT.

And I don't say Satan is a 'BEING.' Satan is if anything an ANTI-BEING.

You sir, need to do some study about what the dragon represents. God makes reference to the seed of the serpent in Gen when he sets forth his plan for our redemption. What did the serpent do? He called god a liar.

What serpent? There is only man and God in your theories. And the Anti-Christ spirits are only YOUR FELLOW MAN...

You have NOWHERE ELSE to go on these matters.

YET we KNOW there are ANGELIC HOLY BEINGS and we know that these Holy Beings FOUGHT and FIGHT with SPIRITUAL WICKEDNESS....

I have no need to see my fellow man IN THAT LIGHT...or to deny that SATAN is a real "entity" of some sort.

I'm sniping the balance of your post til you come to the table on the items above.

enjoy!

squint

 

[k2svpete]

And once again you fail to support any of your ramblings with scripture.

Grab a concordance and a Bible dictionary and have a look at words, their roots and meanings.

FYI, I am not involved with employment in the mental health sector. Just someone who uses the brain that God has given me.

No go forth and come back to me with scripture to support your position, not your rude sarcasm and belligerence.

 

[squint]

And once again you fail to support any of your ramblings with scripture.

There are specifics on the table. Obviously you want to make up your own story as you go along and not deal with the facts of the specifics, and of course you are entitled to do as you please.

Grab a concordance and a Bible dictionary and have a look at words, their roots and meanings.

I've spent a considerable amount of time in the scriptures. What's yer point?

IF my goal was to eradicate the scriptures or INSERT my own baloney as you have done there wouldn't be much point in digging into root words.

ALL you are doing is justifying a position that cannot be justified. So what?

FYI, I am not involved with employment in the mental health sector. Just someone who uses the brain that God has given me.

Well, you so far have measured ONLY YOUR FELLOW MAN as the ANTI-CHRIST SPIRIT...

So in that ACTION and ACTIVITY you are indeed a typical "tool" and no, you have not fallen as far from the theological tree as you may think.

enjoy!

squint

 

[k2svpete]

Still no scripture to back up your position, what a surprise.

[staff edit]

Gal 5 -
22And the fruit of the Spirit is: Love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith,
23meekness, temperance: against such there is no law;

You have demonstrated a limited ability to argue; a significant ability to be sarcastic and rude; and have avoided using any scripture to justify your position.

As you are unable or unwilling to put forward a structured argument it is pointless continuing to discuss this with you.

 

[Nomenclature]

Still no scripture to back up your position, what a surprise.

It seems that squint has provided plenty of scripture to support his posts. He has pasted verses and yet you say that he has not provided scripture. Perhaps you do not view the words of Yeshua, as scripture then?

Matt. 12:43

Matthew 12:43-45

43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.