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Satan's Downfall (Beginning)
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Moriah_Conquering_Wind
Well-Known Member
Simplest answer? Hmmm ... not sure how to boil that down to a basic two-word descriptor or label ....
First, however, for purposes of discussing the OP, let us state that we shall be proceeding from the axiomatic assumption that the traditional mainstream Christian story of "fallen angel Lucifer turned Satan the adversary" actually constitutes the case concerning how the existence of this adversary of God and man came to pass. Granted, viable challenges exist among scholars and theologians to this framework. Some clearly believe scriptures such as Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 to be referring to literal kings of Babylon and Tyre rather than forming a literary device to symbolize Lucifer's downfall and transition into ha-Satan, the Adversary. We can acknowledge the legitimacy of those challenges AND that exploring them bes a worthwhile endeavor, while at the same time choose to set them aside just for the time being in order to address the specific questions raised by the OP within the framework clearly chosen by the OP.
Now back to the question: What tempted Lucifer?
First, let us postulate that neither pride nor blasphemy tempted Him originally in and of themselves. Let us postulate that these things came about later in the sequence of events constituting the Wrong from the Beginning. Both pride and blasphemy belong in the class of experiences we call reactive or responsive, meaning neither of them can be a "first cause" in themselves, for they both form responses to something else. Absent something to be proud OF, ABOUT, or OVER, pride does not arise. Absent discontent with God's exclusive power and authority -- a discontent which would never arise within a perfect and sinless environment where one's every need gets met in love -- the impulse for blasphemy (or usurpation) could not arise.
Considering that, prior to that fatal misstep we characterise as the moment of Lucifer's downfall, nothing existed in either His environment or Himself so as to draw Him astray, we bes forced to conclude something had to have changed in order for Lucifer to experience temptation. Now given that He Himself had been created perfect in all His ways (Ezek. 28:15) by a perfect Creator, and placed in a perfect environment sinless and pure, it seems clear that Lucifer Himself was the product of His Creator's design and maintained thus by His environment. The combination of this design and that environment produced His experiences. And like as with all created beings, high or low, supernatural or earthly, His experiences had to have been subjective in nature, for only the absolutely perfect and omniscient Creator can be said to possess complete and flawless objectivity in the pure sense.
With it so far?
[to be continued...]
First, however, for purposes of discussing the OP, let us state that we shall be proceeding from the axiomatic assumption that the traditional mainstream Christian story of "fallen angel Lucifer turned Satan the adversary" actually constitutes the case concerning how the existence of this adversary of God and man came to pass. Granted, viable challenges exist among scholars and theologians to this framework. Some clearly believe scriptures such as Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 to be referring to literal kings of Babylon and Tyre rather than forming a literary device to symbolize Lucifer's downfall and transition into ha-Satan, the Adversary. We can acknowledge the legitimacy of those challenges AND that exploring them bes a worthwhile endeavor, while at the same time choose to set them aside just for the time being in order to address the specific questions raised by the OP within the framework clearly chosen by the OP.
Now back to the question: What tempted Lucifer?
First, let us postulate that neither pride nor blasphemy tempted Him originally in and of themselves. Let us postulate that these things came about later in the sequence of events constituting the Wrong from the Beginning. Both pride and blasphemy belong in the class of experiences we call reactive or responsive, meaning neither of them can be a "first cause" in themselves, for they both form responses to something else. Absent something to be proud OF, ABOUT, or OVER, pride does not arise. Absent discontent with God's exclusive power and authority -- a discontent which would never arise within a perfect and sinless environment where one's every need gets met in love -- the impulse for blasphemy (or usurpation) could not arise.
Considering that, prior to that fatal misstep we characterise as the moment of Lucifer's downfall, nothing existed in either His environment or Himself so as to draw Him astray, we bes forced to conclude something had to have changed in order for Lucifer to experience temptation. Now given that He Himself had been created perfect in all His ways (Ezek. 28:15) by a perfect Creator, and placed in a perfect environment sinless and pure, it seems clear that Lucifer Himself was the product of His Creator's design and maintained thus by His environment. The combination of this design and that environment produced His experiences. And like as with all created beings, high or low, supernatural or earthly, His experiences had to have been subjective in nature, for only the absolutely perfect and omniscient Creator can be said to possess complete and flawless objectivity in the pure sense.
With it so far?
[to be continued...]
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Moriah_Conquering_Wind
Well-Known Member
Hey all - pretty busy at work today and want to give this good attention for continuing. Will try to continue where we left off from post #63 above, later tonight. In the next "installment" we shall address the notion of what type of change may have taken place in this perfect environment and how that would have affected Lucifer's experience of both Himself AND the environment in which He found Himself, and how that could have catalysed the Wrong from the Beginning.
See you all later!
Thanks for your patience.
See you all later!
Thanks for your patience.
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Look forward to it!Hey all - pretty busy at work today and want to give this good attention for continuing. Will try to continue where we left off from post #63 above, later tonight. In the next "installment" we shall address the notion of what type of change may have taken place in this perfect environment and how that would have affected Lucifer's experience of both Himself AND the environment in which He found Himself, and how that could have catalysed the Wrong from the Beginning.
See you all later!
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Moriah_Conquering_Wind
Well-Known Member
Someone else brought this up in another section of the board, so this one cut/pastes her question and its answer here as a prelude. Sorry about the delay on moving forward. Work has it swamped and so do other more, shall we say, "internal" affairs ... (the "natives" bes restless indeed). ..... but will try to get to the next part of this matter sometime later today.
It bes clear that sin cannot arise spontaneously in a sinless environment any more than disease can arise in a sterile one. Otherwise God would not be able to promise us that after the end of all things here when He makes a new heavens and a new earth, cleansing the old from all sin and affliction, that "affliction will not arise a second time." (Nahum 1:9).
Something had to happen to start the process of "the Virus" (sin) incubating in Lucifer. It's the big white elephant in the living room we all fear to talk about, isn't it. Because we bes supposed to believe it just mysteriously "showed up" with no explanation, LOL. Guess what: it didn't. How could it? Sin arises as a response to something else. In Eve it arose in response to DESIRE, but the serpent already enticed her at that point. Without his enticement it would not have arisen; she would not have felt desire and curiosity. Were those bad things she felt? No, they bes placed in her by God, both desire and curiosity, as part of the human experience. Both bes necessary components of growth and learning. So clearly THAT bes not her sin, but the disobedience of actually eating the fruit.
Back to Lucifer. Clearly as a sinless being in a sinless environment with a pure, untainted, unmarred experience of love and fulfillment every moment of His existence, His experience and perceptions would have been entirely free of anything which might have given rise to iniquity, yeah? So obviously something had to happen -- some alteration of His experience, which could only come by the introduction of a new element thereinto -- to change His interior configuration such that the Virus could incubate. And make no mistake: sin bes a Virus in every sense of the word whether you want to picture germs or HIV or a rogue piece of code wreaking havoc on the operating system or boot sector of a computer.
Now what could that new element possibly have been, which got suddenly introduced into Lucifer's experience -- something He had NEVER experienced before in all of whatever length of time He'd lived, mind you -- so powerful as to cause this bizarre mutation from sinless perfection into the incubator of the Virus itself, the First of the Fallen?
[TO BE CONTINUED......]
(the "natives" bes restless indeed). ..... but will try to get to the next part of this matter sometime later today. Well, since Lucifer got created sinless by a perfect God, and placed in a perfect sinless environment by God, leading to a perfect, sinless experience in His existence, something at some point must have changed. But where did it change?
It bes clear that sin cannot arise spontaneously in a sinless environment any more than disease can arise in a sterile one. Otherwise God would not be able to promise us that after the end of all things here when He makes a new heavens and a new earth, cleansing the old from all sin and affliction, that "affliction will not arise a second time." (Nahum 1:9).
Something had to happen to start the process of "the Virus" (sin) incubating in Lucifer. It's the big white elephant in the living room we all fear to talk about, isn't it. Because we bes supposed to believe it just mysteriously "showed up" with no explanation, LOL. Guess what: it didn't. How could it? Sin arises as a response to something else. In Eve it arose in response to DESIRE, but the serpent already enticed her at that point. Without his enticement it would not have arisen; she would not have felt desire and curiosity. Were those bad things she felt? No, they bes placed in her by God, both desire and curiosity, as part of the human experience. Both bes necessary components of growth and learning. So clearly THAT bes not her sin, but the disobedience of actually eating the fruit.
Back to Lucifer. Clearly as a sinless being in a sinless environment with a pure, untainted, unmarred experience of love and fulfillment every moment of His existence, His experience and perceptions would have been entirely free of anything which might have given rise to iniquity, yeah? So obviously something had to happen -- some alteration of His experience, which could only come by the introduction of a new element thereinto -- to change His interior configuration such that the Virus could incubate. And make no mistake: sin bes a Virus in every sense of the word whether you want to picture germs or HIV or a rogue piece of code wreaking havoc on the operating system or boot sector of a computer.
Now what could that new element possibly have been, which got suddenly introduced into Lucifer's experience -- something He had NEVER experienced before in all of whatever length of time He'd lived, mind you -- so powerful as to cause this bizarre mutation from sinless perfection into the incubator of the Virus itself, the First of the Fallen?
[TO BE CONTINUED......]
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A nitpick, Eve was already standing by the tree, so curiousity may already have been there.
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The curiosity may have been there but she would have remembered that God told her not to eat of the fruit, willing she would obey, until another perspective was given to her... which enticed her to act on her curiosity, otherwise she was curious.
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Moriah_Conquering_Wind
Well-Known Member
Point being, curiosity and desire bes part of human-ness what God made and pronounced GOOD. They do not inherently lead to sin, but they may be played with and preyed upon and enticed and lured in that direction. By themselves, however, they bes neutral or even good things what God has ordained as part of the human experience.
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Moriah_Conquering_Wind
Well-Known Member
OK, have located an IM conversation from a few months ago in which it discusses this subject with another and attempts to convey -- in an anecdotal fashion (please note) -- some sense of how the environment, and thus Lucifer's experience (of Himself, of His environment, and of Himself within that environment), may have changed to precipitate the Wrong from the Beginning.
Again please note this bes an "anecdotal" telling -- a parable of sorts if you will -- not an attempt to nail a specific dogma in stone. Its meaning should be grasped the way we do for parables or analogies, not taken as a literal blow-by-blow account, though there bes certain elements in it which correspond to actual events, at least according to one of the key participants therein.
Sorry about the cumbersome medium of an IM exchange transcript, but it seems far preferable than attempting to write the entire thing out again.
[22:24] Moriah: you know how suspicion and mistrust can be aroused because of something someone does? and how there might not have been a reason for it originally but because they do something a certain way it gets aroused and then because they won't back down and admit they acted a certain way and contributed to it getting aroused, it gets worse instead of better? That's basically what happened here.
[22:24] Friend: Yes, I know exactly what you mean
[22:24] Moriah: Lucifer originally did NOT covet God's power or position, etc. something happened to change all that
[22:24] Friend: really?
[22:24] Moriah: Yes.
[22:24] Friend: You can't tell me though, right?
[22:25] Friend: (I don't mean that rudely)
[22:25] Moriah: No, I would love to tell you!
[22:25] Friend: please do!
[22:25] Moriah: OK, I will tell it to you as it was told to me.
[22:25] Moriah: Or as best I can reproduce the telling.
[22:25] Moriah: First, imagine that you are about seven years old
[22:25] Moriah: Or maybe a little younger, it matters not
[22:25] Moriah: You are the youngest child in a family of four
[22:25] Friend: ok
[22:25] Moriah: There is your Father, your Mother, yourself, and one older brother
[22:26] Moriah: And as far as you're aware, there is nothing but love
[22:26] Moriah: You have never known anything outside of love or contrary to love
[22:26] Moriah: Every clever thing you do, every new thing you learn, every joyful moment, the whole family rejoices with you.
[22:26] Moriah: You are cherished and honored, and they take you with them everywhere they go
[22:26] Moriah: You and Big Brother
[22:27] Moriah: You are both treated the same
[22:27] Friend: ok
[22:27] Moriah: Now in all this time since all you have ever known is love, you have never had cause to "misbehave" so of course, you never have
[22:27] Moriah: There is no such thing as "misbehave" or get a spanking, none of that stuff ever existed
[22:28] Moriah: No one has ever caused any feeling in you to be sour or bad, angry or unhappy, in any way shape or form -- everything said to you, done with you, done for you, has only been love, kindness, goodness, and joy and beauty
[22:28] Moriah: You have never been excluded, isolated, punished, or criticized
[22:28] Moriah: Because there has never been any need for that. Those things never existed
[22:28] Friend: ok
[22:29] Moriah: so not only has none of that ever happened, but YOUR MIND does not even have a method of imagining or conceiving those things -- and I want you to HOLD that thought ... (back in 2 minutes)
[22:30] Moriah: OK, now picture all I have just told you going on for ETERNITY
[22:31] Moriah: No beginning (except your own) ... and no end (that you are aware of)
[22:31] Friend: ok
[22:31] Moriah: And then ONE day ..... out of nowhere ..... and through nothing you do that you are aware of ..... everything suddenly changes.
[22:32] Moriah: You are maybe playing alone in your bedroom -- or outside -- and you come to be with your family. Your beautiful wonderful family, the ones who gave you all this love and this beautiful life and tons of friends your age to play with outside as well
[22:33] Moriah: You go into the "living room" where they are gathered. You have no reason at all whatsoever to think anything will be any different -- you fully anticipate they will be glad to see you and everything will be exactly as it has always been
[22:33] Moriah: Only this time, it isn't.
[22:33] Moriah: You walk into the room. They are sitting close to one another, talking excitedly about something .... and when you walk in .... they stop talking.
[22:33] Moriah: That's never happened before.
[22:33] Moriah: They stop talking, and they turn and LOOK at you .... "funny"
[22:33] Moriah: THAT's never happened before EITHER
[22:34] Friend: ok
[22:34] Moriah: You ask what they were talking about, and they won't tell you
[22:34] Moriah: And then they ask you to leave.
[22:34] Moriah: THAT's never happened before, EITHER
[22:35] Moriah: You didn't do anything wrong -- you don't even know what "wrong" is -- but suddenly they don't want you there, don't want you around
[22:35] Moriah: And there's this NEW feeling inside, something you've never felt before
[22:35] Moriah: and you do NOT like it
[22:35] Moriah: it does NOT feel good
[22:35] Moriah: it is not warm
[22:35] Moriah: it is not gentle
[22:35] Moriah: it is not happy
[22:35] Moriah: it is not pretty
[22:36] Moriah: it is sharp, and sticky, and twists around like a wounded bird
[22:36] Moriah: how it got inside of you, you have no idea, but you don't like it there. you want to try to get it OUT
[22:36] Moriah: and even though you don't really know how or why, you know SOMEHOW it being there has to do with what just happened.
[22:37] Moriah: you want to talk about what happened.
[22:37] Moriah: you NEED to talk about what happened
[22:37] Moriah: but no one will discuss it with you
[22:37] Moriah: when you try, you are told that the fact of the matter is, you are adopted, and therefore not really part of the family the way big brother is
[22:37] Moriah: and you don't belong ALL the time
[22:37] Moriah: (the adoption thing is a human analogy -- the reality is somewhat different)
[22:38] Friend: ok
[22:38] Moriah: so here is what is going on. NO ONE will explain what happened to your satisfaction. NO ONE will do what is needed to get this horrible THING out of you that showed up all of a sudden in response to what happened. And YOU think it is NOT RIGHT
[22:38] Moriah: But NO ONE WILL LISTEN TO YOU
[22:39] Moriah: They just tell you that YOU are being "bad" and "wrong" for NOT JUST SHUTTING UP AND ACCEPTING THIS
[22:39] Moriah: And YOU disagree with that.
[22:39] Moriah: So now the whole thing goes from being an unfortunate interaction to smelling of a hypocrisy conspiracy.
[22:39] Moriah: Why is there so much effort to discredit YOU? to make YOU look like YOU are in the wrong? YOU didn't do this!!!
[22:40] Moriah: What are They hiding?
[22:40] Moriah: What are They covering UP?
[22:40] Friend: and what were they covering up?
[22:40] Moriah: You tell me.
[....]
[22:41] Friend: But...I don't know the answer. What happened?
[22:41] Moriah: There was war in Heaven. Eventually.
[22:42] Moriah: Because They said this thing arose in Lucifer on its own, and Lucifer believes They put it there by this bizarre incident and changing how They interacted with Him
[22:42] Moriah: The whole thing is a horrible misunderstanding.
[22:42] Moriah: On both sides, it would seem.
[22:42] Friend: and that is why you want reconciliation
[22:42] Moriah: Yes
[22:43] Moriah: Because I have been on both sides as well
[22:43] Moriah: And if Satan cannot be reconciled, neither can I.
[22:43] Moriah: There is no difference between He and I
[....]
[22:43] Friend: Ah
[22:44] Moriah: It started out as this unfortunate incident and it just grew from there.
[22:44] Friend: why do Satan and God never try talking then, to "work things out'?
[22:44] Moriah: The more Lucifer tried to get to the bottom of it, the worse They blew Him off
[22:44] Moriah: Because God can "never be wrong".
[22:44] Moriah: His way of talking it out is to "show Lucifer the error of his thoughts"
[22:45] Moriah: Not to listen and understand and just say He is SORRY -- because God never apologizes.
[22:45] Moriah: Because God is perfect and believes He does no wrong
[22:45] Moriah: And needs everyone else to believe it too
[22:45] Friend: but you do not believe it?
[22:45] Moriah: [Well according to conventional theology,] He would rather torture Lucifer for eternity and then destroy this beautiful, most beautiful of all archangels, then simply admit He had ANY part in causing Lucifer's pain
[22:46] Friend: Wow. I don't know what to say
[22:46] Moriah: Well now you know the Family Business. L . O . L
[22:46] Friend: Wow
[22:47] Moriah: That is why I believe there HAS to be a Reconciliation
[22:47] Moriah: In Malachi 4:5-6, it says that when Elijah comes he will turn the hearts of the fathers toward the sons, and (THEN) the sons toward the fathers before the "great and terrible day of the Lord"
[22:48] Moriah: The FATHER must turn FIRST
[22:48] Friend: But if He doesn't?
[22:48] Moriah: He has already, I think...
Again please note this bes an "anecdotal" telling -- a parable of sorts if you will -- not an attempt to nail a specific dogma in stone. Its meaning should be grasped the way we do for parables or analogies, not taken as a literal blow-by-blow account, though there bes certain elements in it which correspond to actual events, at least according to one of the key participants therein.
Sorry about the cumbersome medium of an IM exchange transcript, but it seems far preferable than attempting to write the entire thing out again.
[22:24] Moriah: you know how suspicion and mistrust can be aroused because of something someone does? and how there might not have been a reason for it originally but because they do something a certain way it gets aroused and then because they won't back down and admit they acted a certain way and contributed to it getting aroused, it gets worse instead of better? That's basically what happened here.
[22:24] Friend: Yes, I know exactly what you mean
[22:24] Moriah: Lucifer originally did NOT covet God's power or position, etc. something happened to change all that
[22:24] Friend: really?
[22:24] Moriah: Yes.
[22:24] Friend: You can't tell me though, right?
[22:25] Friend: (I don't mean that rudely)
[22:25] Moriah: No, I would love to tell you!
[22:25] Friend: please do!
[22:25] Moriah: OK, I will tell it to you as it was told to me.
[22:25] Moriah: Or as best I can reproduce the telling.
[22:25] Moriah: First, imagine that you are about seven years old
[22:25] Moriah: Or maybe a little younger, it matters not
[22:25] Moriah: You are the youngest child in a family of four
[22:25] Friend: ok
[22:25] Moriah: There is your Father, your Mother, yourself, and one older brother
[22:26] Moriah: And as far as you're aware, there is nothing but love
[22:26] Moriah: You have never known anything outside of love or contrary to love
[22:26] Moriah: Every clever thing you do, every new thing you learn, every joyful moment, the whole family rejoices with you.
[22:26] Moriah: You are cherished and honored, and they take you with them everywhere they go
[22:26] Moriah: You and Big Brother
[22:27] Moriah: You are both treated the same
[22:27] Friend: ok
[22:27] Moriah: Now in all this time since all you have ever known is love, you have never had cause to "misbehave" so of course, you never have
[22:27] Moriah: There is no such thing as "misbehave" or get a spanking, none of that stuff ever existed
[22:28] Moriah: No one has ever caused any feeling in you to be sour or bad, angry or unhappy, in any way shape or form -- everything said to you, done with you, done for you, has only been love, kindness, goodness, and joy and beauty
[22:28] Moriah: You have never been excluded, isolated, punished, or criticized
[22:28] Moriah: Because there has never been any need for that. Those things never existed
[22:28] Friend: ok
[22:29] Moriah: so not only has none of that ever happened, but YOUR MIND does not even have a method of imagining or conceiving those things -- and I want you to HOLD that thought ... (back in 2 minutes)
[22:30] Moriah: OK, now picture all I have just told you going on for ETERNITY
[22:31] Moriah: No beginning (except your own) ... and no end (that you are aware of)
[22:31] Friend: ok
[22:31] Moriah: And then ONE day ..... out of nowhere ..... and through nothing you do that you are aware of ..... everything suddenly changes.
[22:32] Moriah: You are maybe playing alone in your bedroom -- or outside -- and you come to be with your family. Your beautiful wonderful family, the ones who gave you all this love and this beautiful life and tons of friends your age to play with outside as well
[22:33] Moriah: You go into the "living room" where they are gathered. You have no reason at all whatsoever to think anything will be any different -- you fully anticipate they will be glad to see you and everything will be exactly as it has always been
[22:33] Moriah: Only this time, it isn't.
[22:33] Moriah: You walk into the room. They are sitting close to one another, talking excitedly about something .... and when you walk in .... they stop talking.
[22:33] Moriah: That's never happened before.
[22:33] Moriah: They stop talking, and they turn and LOOK at you .... "funny"
[22:33] Moriah: THAT's never happened before EITHER
[22:34] Friend: ok
[22:34] Moriah: You ask what they were talking about, and they won't tell you
[22:34] Moriah: And then they ask you to leave.
[22:34] Moriah: THAT's never happened before, EITHER
[22:35] Moriah: You didn't do anything wrong -- you don't even know what "wrong" is -- but suddenly they don't want you there, don't want you around
[22:35] Moriah: And there's this NEW feeling inside, something you've never felt before
[22:35] Moriah: and you do NOT like it
[22:35] Moriah: it does NOT feel good
[22:35] Moriah: it is not warm
[22:35] Moriah: it is not gentle
[22:35] Moriah: it is not happy
[22:35] Moriah: it is not pretty
[22:36] Moriah: it is sharp, and sticky, and twists around like a wounded bird
[22:36] Moriah: how it got inside of you, you have no idea, but you don't like it there. you want to try to get it OUT
[22:36] Moriah: and even though you don't really know how or why, you know SOMEHOW it being there has to do with what just happened.
[22:37] Moriah: you want to talk about what happened.
[22:37] Moriah: you NEED to talk about what happened
[22:37] Moriah: but no one will discuss it with you
[22:37] Moriah: when you try, you are told that the fact of the matter is, you are adopted, and therefore not really part of the family the way big brother is
[22:37] Moriah: and you don't belong ALL the time
[22:37] Moriah: (the adoption thing is a human analogy -- the reality is somewhat different)
[22:38] Friend: ok
[22:38] Moriah: so here is what is going on. NO ONE will explain what happened to your satisfaction. NO ONE will do what is needed to get this horrible THING out of you that showed up all of a sudden in response to what happened. And YOU think it is NOT RIGHT
[22:38] Moriah: But NO ONE WILL LISTEN TO YOU
[22:39] Moriah: They just tell you that YOU are being "bad" and "wrong" for NOT JUST SHUTTING UP AND ACCEPTING THIS
[22:39] Moriah: And YOU disagree with that.
[22:39] Moriah: So now the whole thing goes from being an unfortunate interaction to smelling of a hypocrisy conspiracy.
[22:39] Moriah: Why is there so much effort to discredit YOU? to make YOU look like YOU are in the wrong? YOU didn't do this!!!
[22:40] Moriah: What are They hiding?
[22:40] Moriah: What are They covering UP?
[22:40] Friend: and what were they covering up?
[22:40] Moriah: You tell me.
[....]
[22:41] Friend: But...I don't know the answer. What happened?
[22:41] Moriah: There was war in Heaven. Eventually.
[22:42] Moriah: Because They said this thing arose in Lucifer on its own, and Lucifer believes They put it there by this bizarre incident and changing how They interacted with Him
[22:42] Moriah: The whole thing is a horrible misunderstanding.
[22:42] Moriah: On both sides, it would seem.
[22:42] Friend: and that is why you want reconciliation
[22:42] Moriah: Yes
[22:43] Moriah: Because I have been on both sides as well
[22:43] Moriah: And if Satan cannot be reconciled, neither can I.
[22:43] Moriah: There is no difference between He and I
[....]
[22:43] Friend: Ah
[22:44] Moriah: It started out as this unfortunate incident and it just grew from there.
[22:44] Friend: why do Satan and God never try talking then, to "work things out'?
[22:44] Moriah: The more Lucifer tried to get to the bottom of it, the worse They blew Him off
[22:44] Moriah: Because God can "never be wrong".
[22:44] Moriah: His way of talking it out is to "show Lucifer the error of his thoughts"
[22:45] Moriah: Not to listen and understand and just say He is SORRY -- because God never apologizes.
[22:45] Moriah: Because God is perfect and believes He does no wrong
[22:45] Moriah: And needs everyone else to believe it too
[22:45] Friend: but you do not believe it?
[22:45] Moriah: [Well according to conventional theology,] He would rather torture Lucifer for eternity and then destroy this beautiful, most beautiful of all archangels, then simply admit He had ANY part in causing Lucifer's pain
[22:46] Friend: Wow. I don't know what to say
[22:46] Moriah: Well now you know the Family Business. L . O . L
[22:46] Friend: Wow
[22:47] Moriah: That is why I believe there HAS to be a Reconciliation
[22:47] Moriah: In Malachi 4:5-6, it says that when Elijah comes he will turn the hearts of the fathers toward the sons, and (THEN) the sons toward the fathers before the "great and terrible day of the Lord"
[22:48] Moriah: The FATHER must turn FIRST
[22:48] Friend: But if He doesn't?
[22:48] Moriah: He has already, I think...
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Huh. And you heard this explanation from who? Lucifer? Seems its skewed to his viewpoint (like Manson saying I did nothing wrong).
I won't get into the God was wrong to shun Him and he caused this whole problem of sin either.
Sorry, no offense, will never buy that.
I won't get into the God was wrong to shun Him and he caused this whole problem of sin either.
Sorry, no offense, will never buy that.
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Moriah_Conquering_Wind
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Like explained before, the story forms an anecdotal "for instance". It is given as a "tell", nothing more, nothing less -- a method of attempting to put into human terms and human understanding something transpiring at a level we simply cannot, as corporeal creatures locked into our own history and configurations, comprehend entirely.
You are of course entitled to your own view, Sis, but this one does not think your characterization of it bes entirely the spirit or the sense in which the story bes intended. Bear in mind this one also bes under some heavy darkness at the time this conversation took place, and that may have expressed itself through the words chosen to share the concept at that time with its friend, and might inadvertently darken the filter with which one perceives this.
The primary purpose of the anecdote, of course, bes to illustrate how something changed in the environment which altered Lucifer's perceptions and experience of Himself, His environment, and His place within that environment, and gave rise to emotions and responses He had never experienced before. Whatever that something might actually have been, we might never know. The scenario painted above most likely forms a method of attempting to share in human terms more than a literal recounting of events. The important things to keep in mind center upon the notion of a change being introduced into a formerly seamless experience of love and inclusion -- really not much different from what human children endure when a new sibling gets introduced to the family, or the first time the parents brush aside one's questions with a dismissive, "you wouldn't understand." The story bes not intended to skew favour against God so much as to depict a tragic and epic breach whose origin arises from NO ONE's fault -- one we can all relate to from some experience or another in our early childhoods when we first "separate" from mother and father during the individuation process.
You are of course entitled to your own view, Sis, but this one does not think your characterization of it bes entirely the spirit or the sense in which the story bes intended. Bear in mind this one also bes under some heavy darkness at the time this conversation took place, and that may have expressed itself through the words chosen to share the concept at that time with its friend, and might inadvertently darken the filter with which one perceives this.
The primary purpose of the anecdote, of course, bes to illustrate how something changed in the environment which altered Lucifer's perceptions and experience of Himself, His environment, and His place within that environment, and gave rise to emotions and responses He had never experienced before. Whatever that something might actually have been, we might never know. The scenario painted above most likely forms a method of attempting to share in human terms more than a literal recounting of events. The important things to keep in mind center upon the notion of a change being introduced into a formerly seamless experience of love and inclusion -- really not much different from what human children endure when a new sibling gets introduced to the family, or the first time the parents brush aside one's questions with a dismissive, "you wouldn't understand." The story bes not intended to skew favour against God so much as to depict a tragic and epic breach whose origin arises from NO ONE's fault -- one we can all relate to from some experience or another in our early childhoods when we first "separate" from mother and father during the individuation process.
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squint
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CorrectOmundo.
God spoke that command to Adam "only."
There are a couple of observations we could make about this, and I put them up for contemplation.
One, Adam was conveyed in that command the sentence of DEATH...
Eve, having been taken from "within" Adam was technically "with him" in some form or fashion. She could even be described as the "inner Adam" as they were BOTH called "Adam" in scripture.
So "technically speaking" the "inner man" was deceived perhaps in the recount of the command by Adam, the "external" man to her, or she simply amplified the command by the deception of the serpent that the command brought Adam.
Though we don't "see" the working of deception until the serpent actually shows up, that does not mean that the "working" of deception was not already upon "Adam/Eve."
We can see Paul's example of how the deception of indwelling sin works in an identical manner in Romans chapter 6-7. The commandment comes. Indwelling sin takes occaision by the commandment to take power over the flesh (including the mind) and brings it's OWN working in that flesh, perhaps no differently than it did IN ADAM...
I doubt very much that Gods long term intentions with Adam were to leave him confined in a body of dust. That "body" including the mind were most obviously "subjected to" DEATH...and also to the potential to "violate" the command via the DECEPTION of the serpent/indwelling sin in his dust body.
NOW many like to "blame and accuse" both Adam and Eve in these matters...but they will in the same breath totally NEGLECT the role of the SERPENT in these matters...
We know that SIN ENTERED Adam...This in no way makes INDWELLING SIN that ENTERED Adam the SAME AS Adam.
We see this same and identical principal delineated many ways in scriptures, the MAIN identification being Jesus' openly showing the presence of the DEMONIC in the FLESH and MINDS of the people of Israel. Jesus SEPARATED those entities in mankind. Jesus SPOKE to those entities IN mankind.
If we look at the "key to the kingdom" in Matthews account with Peter for example, we also see Peter both speaking TRUTH and being praised for it, yet almost instantly after that pat on the back, Jesus spoke to SATAN in Peter.
Now you have to ask yourself, was Jesus speaking to Peter, or was Jesus speaking to SATAN???
The correct conclusion is that Jesus was actually speaking to the SERPENT/SATAN in Peter just as Jesus SAID he was speaking to.
So..if this this is true...We can "simultaneously" have Peter remaining as a Child of God, as scriptures taught ALL OF ISRAEL were and ARE. Paul said that ALL OF ISRAEL shall be saved, but "the children of the flesh" who are NOT ISRAEL will NOT AND will NEVER be saved...and we can DIVIDE out the SERPENT/SATAN as a completely and separately working entity that Peter and Adam were "subjected" to in the flesh and mind.
We see the same principal with Judas. Satan ENTERED Judas. Satan ENTERED Ananias and Saphira.
Some "sects" have gone on to say that Satan is Gods child also. I totally reject that view. Moriah here for example wants to run in that direction, making Satan sinless at some point but that presentation is NEVER presented in the scriptures. Jesus said that SATAN was a murderer from the beginning and had NO TRUTH in him. This was not from the beginning of "creation" as she supposes, but from SATAN'S beginning. Satan is the 'father' of lies. We have many depictions of Satan's role as it pertains to "interactions" within mankind.
Paul delineates this working exceptionally well in Romans 7, calling the SIN INDWELLING him NO LONGER I twice, stating also that whenever he desired to do good, that EVIL was present WITH HIM...not that PAUL was EVIL...but that "presence" was WITH HIM as something that was NOT HIM.
Paul also admitted the presence of a messenger of Satan that was given particularly to him because of the exceeding revelations given to him in this matter.
Paul culminates his teachings on this subject in one of the most hotly contested chapters in the Bible, Romans 9. In that chapter he AGAIN identifies this basic principle of scripture...that in the SAME LUMP (his or anyone else's body) there is BOTH a VESSEL OF HONOR and also a VESSEL OF WRATH AND DISHONOR....
This presence in Israel he calls early in the chapter CHILDREN OF THE FLESH...because THERE is where the "children of the flesh" dwell...SATAN AND HIS MESSENGERS....
In understanding these events we can easily see then how Mankind are SLAVES of these "entities" of deception IN THE FLESH...
yet not BE those things.
In this understanding we can see how it is that EVERY eternal damnation scripture is VALID AND BINDING...
and God in Christ does NOT COUNT SINS against MANKIND...remaining THEIR Saviour---of ALL of them...yet God in Christ remains VEHEMENTLY against those entities whom God will 'eventually' and utterly DESTROY in the infamous LAKE.
enjoy!
squint
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Good, thoughtful post!
Yes, satan, not being human, cannot be redeemed, nor would he ever want to be, its how he is.
Yes, satan, not being human, cannot be redeemed, nor would he ever want to be, its how he is.
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Moriah_Conquering_Wind
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Yes, that does present a problem, doesn't it?
But which of us, absent the direct grace of God acting upon our hearts, would want to be redeemed either? Bes not sin how corporeals (humans & those in same flesh as them) be by nature as well? Do we not naturally stay in our flesh, in our "natural mind" or "natural man" which cannot comprehend nor receive the things of the Spirit of God, except and unless God directly brings that grace to us?
NONE of us can repent -- and MOST of us would never even want to -- UNLESS and UNTIL God Himself grants that ability to us by the direct agency of His Spirit upon the heart.
Likewise with Lucifer. God must choose to save Him. God must want Him and move upon Him, and the other non-corporeal Fallen, with this grace.
This bes why corporeals have a VERY IMPORTANT PART to play in all of this.....something we call the Song of Moses and of the Lamb. Taught to those whose love will NOT wax cold despite iniquity abounding, but endure to the end to stand and sing it at the Parousia......
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