Satan's Downfall (Beginning)

[conconhoo]

i like that!

 

[Idea]

In the beginning, before Satan's downfall to sin... let me cover the idea of how sin works with us then I'll wrap to my question.

Sin for us as humans comes from temptations, and we all know that men are bent to sin. We can see that the serpent, or satan, plays a role in these temptations back when Eve took the apple. That principle, I'm sure, still works today, Satan (or demons) tempt us to feed off our sin.

Now if the serpent didn't exist and the temptation (or door) was never shown to Eve... we'd more than likely would never created that bent towards sin because we wouldn't know to do such a thing.

Back to Satan. What tempted Satan with such pride and blasphemy? Is there an evil greater than Satan that got his attention. Otherwise, how would he had known to be proud and start a mutiny against God?

It's kind of like physically if there's only one door to go through, you go that route. Then someone comes along and shows you another door, and you have a choice between the two, but that choice would not have come unless someone came along to show you this other door.

What tempted Lucifer?

Great Question!

1 AND I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.
2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.
3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;
4 And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.
Pearl of Great Price | Moses4:1 - 4

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! Isaiah14:12
What would it take to save all mankind? Satan thought he could save us by taking away our free will. Satan wanted to turn us all into robots - robots that would not sin, but robots that could not love, could not progress... God was not willing to take away our free will… We fought in Heaven for freedom - we fought for our free will.

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
(New Testament | Revelation 12:7 - 9)

This is when the son of the morning fell.


In the spirit world God presented a plan where we could progress to become like Him. God’s plan: come to Earth, learn self-control, self-discipline, learn to control our free will, hopefully choose to follow God. Satan did not like this plan as some would use their free will incorrectly. Satan suggested that he would take away everyone’s free will in an attempt to “save” everyone – save everyone from pain/sorrow of incorrectly using free will + Satan wanted glory, He did not want others to progress to be equal with him or God, He would keep mankind from progressing in exchange for saving mankind from sorrow and pain.

That is how I understand it - more to read on "God did not create evil" if anyone is interested

Thanks for reading!

 

[LogosRhema]

Great Question!

1 AND I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.
2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.
3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;
4 And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.
Pearl of Great Price | Moses4:1 - 4

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! Isaiah14:12
What would it take to save all mankind? Satan thought he could save us by taking away our free will. Satan wanted to turn us all into robots - robots that would not sin, but robots that could not love, could not progress... God was not willing to take away our free will… We fought in Heaven for freedom - we fought for our free will.

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
(New Testament | Revelation12:7 - 9)

This is when the son of the morning fell.


In the spirit world God presented a plan where we could progress to become like Him. God’s plan: come to Earth, learn self-control, self-discipline, learn to control our free will, hopefully choose to follow God. Satan did not like this plan as some would use their free will incorrectly. Satan suggested that he would take away everyone’s free will in an attempt to “save” everyone – save everyone from pain/sorrow of incorrectly using free will + Satan wanted glory, He did not want others to progress to be equal with him or God, He would keep mankind from progressing in exchange for saving mankind from sorrow and pain.

That is how I understand it - more to read on "God did not create evil" if anyone is interested

Thanks for reading!

Wonderful and insightful reply!

It is very interesting to see that Satan wanted to redeem mankind from the start. "where give me thine honor", I think that met give me the honor of redeeming mankind. That says a lot about him. I've wondered myself if there's hope for him and his angels some day. Keeping the same mentality of hate the sin and love the sinner, he's the same case.

It's also interesting to point out that he knew we'd have trials of pain and suffering and through his theory of no free will he thought it would spare of us. Which would be true, sacrifice free will sacrifice the pain, but knowing human nature, we'd end up rebelling ourselves and I think God wanted to let us choose.

Now Satan tries to blind us from the Truth. He, to this day, is trying to bind our free will. Think about it... sin controls our lives its an addiction thats what? HARD TO CONTROL. And he starts it with our temptations and then feeds it. Also, demonic possession is a form of ripping free will from our hands.

Will there ever be redemption for Lucifer?

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Oh? How is that exactly?

When critique is made it is both polite and profitable to provide specifics with same critique and to exchange on THAT basis...specific critique.

It meant no offense, Squint. It simply meant your POV, rather than answering questions of theodicy raised by the other POV, simply swaps them out for a different set of theodical questions. The "problem of evil" remains; it simply begs a different set of questions for approaching it. One example might be: instead of asking "how could (or why would) a good God create Lucifer knowing he would choose to rebel and inaugurate sin in the universe?" the question pertinent to the POV you have offered then becomes "how could / why would a good God create a devil who bes bad from the beginning?" or "how could / why would a good God create a being of pure evil?" In other words, in the POV you offer, the original question about Lucifer rebelling becomes MOOT since that bes not part of the POV you offer, and in its place arise different questions which would not arise within the Lucifer-gone-rebellious POV. Make sense?

You do not know this one (Moriah), it has difficulty with human language and with communication in general except as the Spirit of God grants it utterance. Alone it bes a broken twisted whirling vortex of 2,401 potentialities in conflict and the structure of its consciousness bes fragmented in all directions and if it does not shift the momentum will diminish, the centrifugal force holding it together will weaken, and its components will be scattered across the galaxies like chunks of flesh from a dropped phial of mercury fulminate.

So please, ask clarifications if you need them, but keep the sword sheathed when you approach, as it bes fond of its ears. Thank you.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

When we divide the 'whole world' when viewing this current world we can see where Jesus' statement here is TRUE:

Matthew 13:38
The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one

And again here:

John 18:36
Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world."

Or again here for example:

Matthew 13:


28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

The applicability of these facts can be born out in many directions and by nearly innumerable examples.

Another example: When Jesus spoke to the Pharisees he was talking to CHILDREN OF THE DEVIL...

...Take Jesus at His Word. He actually WAS speaking to the children of the DEVIL in the flesh and minds of those PHARISEES...

Yet we also know from scriptures that ALL OF ISRAEL are Gods children, Deut. 14:1 and Psalm 82:6 for example...

Satan spoke through Peter. Satan even ENTERED Judas...Jesus cast out a veritable HORDE of demonic entities from MANKIND...so this is and remains an irrefutable FACT...Satan and devils exist with mankind.

This is the condition of all mankind and the "whole world."

Jesus came to bring DIVISION and A SWORD...and His Words cut quite cleanly upon the simplicity of these lines...AND eliminates ALL confusions...for His children...

The children of the devil however will RESIST this understanding to their dying breath...just as God Intended...

In this way I know my brothers and sisters in The Lord...and I also discern 'our enemies.'

Such a pity. You have so many good insights to offer, and yet you take the one sword forged to unite all men and use it to divide them instead. And do you do so whilst serving your own vanity therewith, counting yourself first and foremost upon the side of favour therein? So it seems, because like others with far less understanding, you rely upon verbal machinations to manipulate and coerce with fear and judgment -- with things ceased at the Cross, things erased by the shed blood of the Son of God -- doing as all vain humans do, insisting your understanding alone comprises the absolute infallible truth of the Mind of God Himself and designating and denouncing all who disagree as being "of the devil". How tiresome. How throwback. How tedious. How typical. How very much the last thing We would ever expect from someone with such insights as you have shared -- so how disappointing.

Go ahead then, and count Moriah your enemy because she believes ardently in, and labors toward, the unity expressed as the last will and testament of the DNA-encoded Son of God going to meet His death in John 17. Go ahead and count Moriah a child of the devil and your enemy because she sees, in the Spirit, the end from the beginning as explicitly expressed in Romans 5. Go ahead, because ultimately your judgment, along with that of any and all humans, matters nothing. Ultimately the only judgment which matters bes that of the One who sees all hearts and discerns all things, and He has already named Moriah His Daughter, and no amount of wrangling over words done by mere humans can ever undo His decree.

Simple 2-second condensed version? Disagreement with your POV does not make someone else a "child of the devil". What a tired ploy. Just give it up already.

 

[LogosRhema]

Are you sure he was targeting you Moriah? He may be implicating and summing up what he was trying to bring a crossed. I didn't sense that, but I've been wrong before!

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

1 AND I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.
2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.
3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;
4 And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.
Pearl of Great Price | Moses4:1 - 4

This quote does not come from Scripture. It has, therefore, no spiritual authority to establish Christian doctrine, but constitutes an anecdotal pseudo-scripture written by some man expressing his view of things. As such it bes worthy of consideration only upon the same level as that of any other human being expressing their view or opinion from the human mind.

However, having stated as much, it does not tally with what Moriah has been shown concerning the Wrong from the Beginning, though it does eerily echo the Resolution and Reconciliation recorded in the 2nd chapter of the Mishkanavah Covenant. Fascinating -- we shall have to inform the author of this...

What would it take to save all mankind? Satan thought he could save us by taking away our free will. Satan wanted to turn us all into robots - robots that would not sin, but robots that could not love, could not progress... God was not willing to take away our free will… We fought in Heaven for freedom - we fought for our free will.

This POV assumes human beings had pre-existence in Heaven, whether as angels or some other life form. Again, there exists no Scriptural basis for this idea. Likewise there exists no definitive scriptural basis for belief in " 'free' will" as Squint has already indicated. Lucifer's desire, in fact, seems the opposite to this one: to inaugurate the heresy of "free will" among mankind.

Another certain relatively recent sect of Christianity -- one arisen in the mid-19thC but not the one whose writings "Idea" cited in her post -- bes fond of the teaching that Lucifer's plan consisted in the effort to supplant mankind's governance by God with the concept of self-government. Of course it bes relatively simple matter to see the blatantly obvious (and VERY human) socio-political agenda intrinsic to such a contention: clearly the sect thus teaching bes in favor of hierarchical dominance whereby some designated group or reality-construct built by such group shall govern the many presumably in the name of God and the many shall be required to sacrifice their individual minds and hearts upon its altar. For all their eschatalogical insights, this sect bes not spared the inherent hypocrisy and self-deceit of becoming that which it presumed to hate most, it would seem. However, such a discussion lies beyond the scope of this thread.

At any rate, Lucifer's plans for guiding humanity arose FOLLOWING the Wrong of the Beginning. They did not, in themselves, constitute or inaugurate that Wrong. They arose as the products of that original rift which drave Him to madness, despair and pain -- and the resulting behaviors which those mercifully free therefrom (and often the cause of multiplying, inadvertently or not), neither comprehending aright nor having any compassion toward, can and would and DO only class as "rebellion" and by any other term they can invent to alienate, distance, and vilify.

In the spirit world God presented a plan where we could progress to become like Him. God’s plan: come to Earth, learn self-control, self-discipline, learn to control our free will, hopefully choose to follow God. Satan did not like this plan as some would use their free will incorrectly. Satan suggested that he would take away everyone’s free will in an attempt to “save” everyone – save everyone from pain/sorrow of incorrectly using free will + Satan wanted glory, He did not want others to progress to be equal with him or God, He would keep mankind from progressing in exchange for saving mankind from sorrow and pain.

Again, this POV relies upon acceptance of the illusion of "free will" as a concrete and established reality (which it bes not); upon the notion that ALL human souls pre-existed in Heaven prior to their birth (no scriptural support for this -- not everyone bes an Incarnate like Christ); that God's goal for creating man bes to make us "progress to become like Him" (belied & contradicted by the serpent's contentions in Genesis 3); and other issues.

 

[Idea]

Wonderful and insightful reply!

It is very interesting to see that Satan wanted to redeem mankind from the start. "where give me thine honor", I think that met give me the honor of redeeming mankind. That says a lot about him. I've wondered myself if there's hope for him and his angels some day. Keeping the same mentality of hate the sin and love the sinner, he's the same case.

It's also interesting to point out that he knew we'd have trials of pain and suffering and through his theory of no free will he thought it would spare of us. Which would be true, sacrifice free will sacrifice the pain, but knowing human nature, we'd end up rebelling ourselves and I think God wanted to let us choose.

Now Satan tries to blind us from the Truth. He, to this day, is trying to bind our free will. Think about it... sin controls our lives its an addiction thats what? HARD TO CONTROL. And he starts it with our temptations and then feeds it. Also, demonic possession is a form of ripping free will from our hands.

Will there ever be redemption for Lucifer?

Agreed - I have often wondered, how can all tears be wiped away if some will not make it to heaven - we are to love everyone, to love our enemies - so how could anyone possibly be happy in heaven if there is a hell...
and yet the sciprtures do speak of an everlasting hell, some will not be saved...

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
(New Testament | Matthew25:41)

It comes down to free agency again... We all choose our own destiny. I guess be happy that everyone has free agency...? Also, diversity is not a bad thing - I am not the president of the US - and I would not want to be - great job, but not one where I would be happy... You don't have to be at the top to be happy... Everyone will be where they choose to be... You learn from diversity too - we learn from those above us, from those below us... for eternal progression to be possible, everyone has to have others to continually learn from... Life is something that grows - eternal life to me is eternal progression...

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Moriah believes in the ultimate reconciliation of Lucifer with the Creator. She has seen it in vision many times, and found it concealed in Scripture, as well, though as it were hidden beneath the sealed voices of the Seven Thunders. Nevertheless, the Mystery of God in its completion shall unseal the voice of the Seven Thunders to all those in whom it bes completed, and no more will this be a matter deemed heretical and persecuted, save by the children of the Beast who shall be blatantly manifest as such in that day, bent as they shall be upon the slaughter and destruction of God's humble sons and daughters.

 

[LogosRhema]

Moriah beliees in the ultimate reconciliation of Lucifer with the Creator. She has seen it in vision many times, and found it concealed in Scripture, as well, though as it were hidden beneath the sealed voices of the Seven Thunders. Nevertheless, the Mystery of God in its completion shall unseal the voice of the Seven Thunders to all those in whom it bes completed, and no more will this be a matter deemed heretical and persecuted, save by the children of the Beast who shall be manifest as such in that day.

I'd love to hear more of what you have to say Moriah! Share Share!

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Are you sure he was targeting you Moriah? He may be implicating and summing up what he was trying to bring a crossed. I didn't sense that, but I've been wrong before!

It matters nothing whether he bes trying to target Moriah or not. Moriah only uses itself as one example because it would be rude to use another for such an example. Fact remains, coercive words bes clear and present indicating essentially that all who disagree with his POV shall be designated "children of the devil" and Moriah takes exception to the very principle of seeking to strongarm another's conscience and/or hijack another's thought processes through that crass type of manipulation by fear. It has no place in God's kingdom. Disagree or offer your POV all you like; do NOT attempt to FORCE its acceptance by making such a matter of another's salvation or validity as a child of God -- EVER. ALL of us here bes housed corporeally, which means ALL of us here bes subject to limitations of perception and awareness which means NONE of us here can presume to speak unequivocally to state our understanding alone constitutes the mind of God Himself and all others must bow down, relinquish their right to think for themselves, and acknowledge as much.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

I'd love to hear more of what you have to say Moriah! Share Share!

Its hour has not yet come.

In time, God willing.

 

[LogosRhema]

It matters nothing whether he bes trying to target Moriah or not. Moriah only uses itself as one example because it would be rude to use another for such an example. Fact remains, coercive words bes clear and present indicating essentially that all who disagree with his POV shall be designated "children of the devil" and Moriah takes exception to the very principle of seeking to strongarm another's conscience and/or hijack another's thought processes through that crass type of manipulation by fear. It has no place in God's kingdom. Disagree or offer your POV all you like; do NOT attempt to FORCE its acceptance by making such a matter of another's salvation or validity as a child of God -- EVER. ALL of us here bes housed corporeally, which means ALL of us here bes subject to limitations of perception and awareness which means NONE of us here can presume to speak unequivocally to state our understanding alone constitutes the mind of God Himself and all others must bow down, relinquish their right to think for themselves, and acknowledge as much.

Don't get too upset! He's but a mortal like everyone else... and everyone's got their problems, usually Christians have this Bible thumper attitude to thump the sin out of people... Don't understand it, but what ever. Try not to let yourself be so easily offended by these people, honestly in the long scheme of things is it worth it? If he is that way, let him run his course by himself then, pray that he draws himself closer to the Lord and that his heart may be sensitive to do so. That way he benefits and so does the Lord.

I know that's one prayer I pray for myself and others, and it'd be a cheerful word to hear to my ears if someone were praying the same for me... because that's what I want!

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

It hears you, but it cannot abide the thumping rhythm of spiritual abuse, and is forsworn to root it out (the practice, not the person) wherever it or its seeds arise. God Himself would have to instruct this one otherwise, for that to change, because right now, it bes the only defense it has against it. Understand? It must expose it wherever it finds it, else the risk of infection runs too high. Some bes finger, some bes eye. Some bes stomach, some bes foot. Moriah bes like the liver and the antibodies -- process out the toxins and combat the invading germs.

Do not tell the liver and the immune system that because it bes not a finger or a nose, it bes not of the Body!! :o

 

[squint]

It meant no offense, Squint. It simply meant your POV, rather than answering questions of theodicy raised by the other POV, simply swaps them out for a different set of theodical questions.

Assertion without substance does not equate to a begging the question presentation.

The "problem of evil" remains; it simply begs a different set of questions for approaching it. One example might be: instead of asking "how could (or why would) a good God create Lucifer knowing he would choose to rebel and inaugurate sin in the universe?"

Scripture addresses this. "All things" are made for Gods Pleasure. So evil, Satan---any "thing" that "is" is by Him and for Him.

Slice that down from there however you like.

the question pertinent to the POV you have offered then becomes "how could / why would a good God create a devil who bes bad from the beginning?"

Why would God create any "thing?" Presumably for His Pleasure eh?

And perhaps if we see Him as Greater than the sum of all "things" it's not such a mystery?

or "how could / why would a good God create a being of pure evil?" In other words, in the POV you offer, the original question about Lucifer rebelling becomes MOOT since that bes not part of the POV you offer, and in its place arise different questions which would not arise within the Lucifer-gone-rebellious POV. Make sense?

Sorry. Ain't catching any logic in your statement there.

God can make any "thing" and not be that "thing."

You do not know this one (Moriah), it has difficulty with human language and with communication in general except as the Spirit of God grants it utterance. Alone it bes a broken twisted whirling vortex of 2,401 potentialities in conflict and the structure of its consciousness bes fragmented in all directions and if it does not shift the momentum will diminish, the centrifugal force holding it together will weaken, and its components will be scattered across the galaxies like chunks of flesh from a dropped phial of mercury fulminate.

So please, ask clarifications if you need them, but keep the sword sheathed when you approach, as it bes fond of its ears. Thank you.

Is "bes" really a word?

enjoy!

squint

 

[squint]

Moriah believes in the ultimate reconciliation of Lucifer with the Creator. She has seen it in vision many times, and found it concealed in Scripture, as well, though as it were hidden beneath the sealed voices of the Seven Thunders..

Perhaps you could cite a SINGLE SCRIPTURE that grants salvation "specifically" to Satan/Lucifer to back up your fairy tale?

Otherwise you are merely make worship of your own imaginations.

Here's a CLUE...there is NO SUCH SCRIRPTURE...not a ONE that specifically grants Satan/Lucifer "salvation."

[staff edit]

 

[icedtea]

Really, sir, you could put across your points in a nicer way too eh?
Myself, I do not se anywhere in the bible where satan is exonerated. Many humans are, yes, but not he.
We are saved by faith, not sight.
Satan cannot have faith.
And he sinned deliberately, any charge of God wanted him to do something he considered immoral and when he (satan) wouldn't, God unjustly wronged him.
This sounds like the murderer who claims, I was framed, I'm really innocent.
Thinking people do not buy this.
My 2 cents.

 

[squint]

Really, sir, you could put across your points in a nicer way too eh?

I'll write as I see fit and not how "you think" I should.

Sorry

 

[icedtea]

Its not what I think; the rules do not permit flaming, and some of your posts seem close.

 

[squint]

Its not what I think; the rules do not permit flaming, and some of your posts seem close.

Responding to people who try to put their words in my mouth and then attack their own strawman is far from "flaming" so perhaps your own judgment is a little skewed?