• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Site Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,977
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟1,005,242.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Where in the bible does it say that the world was first created for Lucifer and the angels; a paradise of pleasure for them.?

God decribes the original creation of earth at a time of total harmony. Note that 'all' the angels shouted for joy. Sometime between this first creation and the renewal of the earth's surface of GenOne the rebellion, and the destruction of earth, took place...........Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?.........Jude describes the results of the rebellion. Note that the angels 'left their own 'habitation', their 'dwelling place'....... Jude :5 'I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.......... :6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.'.........Verse 5 is the antitype of verse 6, in that both Israel and the angels 'left their estate and habitation' given them by God......Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, enjoying every thing they could possibly want , was a look back at what the angels had, and lost.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Biker Angel

Never coming back to this mad house
Sep 12, 2009
1,209
206
California
✟25,001.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others

Well.............. I have been a Christian my whole life and have been to countless bible studies and church services, I have never heard of your idea that God created earth, first for Lucifer and his angels to enjoy, then put man on earth as a second thought or a plan B.

I have always been under the impression that God created the heavens and the earth for Adam and Eve and Mankind their decedents as an original plan and not b/c Lucifer fell and became Satan so God created mankind instead.

You have an "other-religion" icon showing instead of Christian one so that may be why. Anyway, talk with you later.
 
Upvote 0

Mediakira

Senior Member
Jun 6, 2011
877
120
Eaton, Ohio
✟41,539.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Nazarene
Marital Status
Engaged
Politics
US-Libertarian
Here's more!

Scriptural Facts concerning Satan.

Character of Satan:

Satan is consistently represented in the New Testament as the enemy both of God and man. The popular notion is that Satan is the enemy of man and active in misleading and cursing humanity because of his intense hatred and opposition to God. Matthew 13:39 would seem to point in this direction, but if one were to venture an opinion in a region where there are not enough facts to warrant a conviction, it would be that the general tenor of Scripture indicates quite the contrary, namely, that Satan's jealousy and hatred of men has led him into antagonism to God and, consequently, to goodness. The fundamental moral description of Satan is given by our Lord when He describes Satan as the "evil one" Matthew 13:19, 38; compare Isaiah's description of Yahweh as the "Holy One," Isaiah 1:4 and often; that is, the one whose nature and will are given to evil. Moral evil is his controlling attribute. It is evident that this description could not be applied to Satan as originally created. Ethical evil cannot be concreated. It is the creation of each free will for itself. We are not told in definite terms how Satan became the evil one, but certainly it could be by no other process than a fall, whereby, in the mystery of free personality, an evil will takes the place of a good one.

Works of Satan:

The world-wide and age-long works of Satan are to be traced to one predominant motive. He hates both God and man and does all that in him lies to defeat God's plan of grace and to establish and maintain a kingdom of evil, in the seduction and ruin of mankind. The balance and sanity of the Bible is nowhere more strikingly exhibited than in its treatment of the work of Satan. Not only is the Bible entirely free from the extravagances of popular Satanology, which is full of absurd stories concerning the appearances, tricks, and transformations of Satan among men, but it exhibits a dependable accuracy and consistency, of statement which is most reassuring. Almost nothing is said concerning Satanic agency other than wicked men who mislead other men. In the controversy with His opponents concerning exorcism Mark 3:22 our Lord rebuts their slanderous assertion that He is in league with Satan by the simple proposition that Satan does not work against himself. But in so saying He does far more than refute this slander. He definitely aligns the Bible against the popular idea that a man may make a definite and conscious personal alliance with Satan for any purpose whatever. The agent of Satan is always a victim. Also the hint contained in this discussion that Satan has a kingdom, together with a few other not very definite allusions, are all that we have to go upon in this direction. Nor are we taught anywhere that Satan is able to any extent to introduce disorder into the physical universe or directly operate in the lives of men. It is true that in Luke 13:16 our Lord speaks of the woman who was bowed over as one "whom Satan has bound, to for these eighteen years," and that in 2 Corinthians 12:7 Paul speaks of his infirmity as a "messenger of Satan sent to buffet him." Paul also speaks (1 Thessalonians 2:18) of Satan's hindering him from visiting the church at Thessalonica. A careful study of these related passages (together with the prologue of Job) will reveal the fact that Satan's direct agency in the physical world is very limited. Satan may be said to be implicated in all the disasters and woes of human life, in so far as they are more or less directly contingent upon sin Hebrews 2:14). On the contrary, it is perfectly evident that Satan's power consists principally in his ability to deceive. It is interesting and characteristic that according to the Bible Satan is fundamentally a liar and his kingdom is a kingdom founded upon lies and deceit. The doctrine of Satan therefore corresponds in every important particular to the general Biblical emphasis upon truth. "The truth shall make you free" (John 8:32)-this is the way of deliverance from the power of Satan.

Now it would seem that to make Satan pre-eminently the deceiver would make man an innocent victim and thus relax the moral issue. But according to the Bible man is particeps criminis in the process of his own deception. He is deceived only because he ceases to love the truth and comes first to love and then to believe a lie (2 Corinthians 1:10). This really goes to the very bottom of the problem of temptation. Men are not tempted by evil, per se, but by a good which can be obtained only at the cost of doing wrong. The whole power of sin, at least in its beginnings, consists in the sway of the fundamental falsehood that any good is really attainable by wrongdoing. Since temptation consists in this attack upon the moral sense, man is constitutionally guarded against deceit, and is morally culpable in allowing himself to be deceived. The temptation of our Lord Himself throws the clearest possible light upon the methods ascribed to Satan and The temptation was addressed to Christ's consciousness of divine sonship; it was a deceitful attack emphasizing the good, minimizing or covering up the evil; indeed, twisting evil into good. It was a deliberate, malignant attempt to obscure the truth and induce to evil through the acceptance of falsehood. The attack broke against a loyalty to truth which made self-deceit, and consequently deceit from without, impossible. The lie was punctured by the truth and the temptation lost its power Matthew 4. This incident reveals one of the methods of Satan-by immediate suggestion as in the case of Judas (Luke 22:3 John 13:2, 27). Sometimes, however, and, perhaps, most frequently, Satan's devices (2 Corinthians 2:11) include human agents. Those who are given over to evil and who persuade others to evil are children and servants of Satan (See Matthew 16:23 Mark 8:33 Luke 4:8 John 6:70; John 8:44 Acts 13:10; Acts 1 John 3:8). Satan also works through persons and institutions supposed to be on the side of right but really evil. Here the same ever-present and active falseness and deceit are exhibited. When he is called "the god of this world" (2 Corinthians 4:4) it would seem to be intimated that he has the power to clothe himself in apparently divine attributes. He also makes himself an angel of light by presenting advocates of falsehood in the guise of apostles of truth (2 Corinthians 11:13, 15 1 John 4:1 2 Thessalonians 2:9 Revelation 12:9; Revelation 19:20). In the combination of passages here brought together, it is clearly indicated that Satan is the instigator and fomenter of that spirit of lawlessness which exhibits itself as hatred both of truth and right, and which has operated so widely and so disastrously in human life.

History of Satan:

The history of Satan, including that phase of it which remains to be realized, can be set forth only along the most general lines. He belongs to the angelic order of beings. He is by nature one of the sons of Elohim (Job 1:6). He has fallen, and by virtue of his personal forcefulness has become the leader of the anarchic forces of wickedness. As a free being he has merged his life in evil and has become altogether and hopelessly evil. As a being of high intelligence he has gained great power and has exercised a wide sway over other beings. As a created being the utmost range of his power lies within the compass of that which is permitted. It is, therefore, hedged in by the providential government of God and essentially limited. The Biblical emphasis upon the element of falsehood in the career of Satan might be taken to imply that his kingdom may be less in extent than appears. At any rate, it is confined to the cosmic sphere and to a limited portion of time. It is also doomed. In the closely related passages 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 1:6 it is affirmed that God cast the angels, when they sinned, down to Tartarus and committed them to pits of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment. This both refers to the constant divine control of these insurgent forces and also points to their final and utter destruction. The putting of Satan in bonds is evidently both constant and progressive. The essential limitation of the empire of evil and its ultimate overthrow are foreshadowed in the Book of Job (chapters 38-41), where Yahweh's power extends even to the symbolized spirit of evil.

Time of Jesus Christ:

According to synoptic tradition, our Lord in the crisis of temptation immediately following the baptism (Matthew 4 and parallel) met and for the time conquered Satan as His own personal adversary. This preliminary contest did not close the matter, but was the earnest of a complete victory. According to Luke (10:18), when the Seventy returned from their mission flushed with victory over the powers of evil, Jesus said: `I saw Satan fall as lightning from heaven.' In every triumph over the powers of evil Christ beheld in vision the downfall of Satan. In connection with the coming of the Hellenists who wished to see Him, Jesus asserted (John 12:31), "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out." In view of His approaching passion He says again (John 14:30), "The prince of the world cometh: and he hath nothing in me." Once again in connection with the promised advent of the Spirit, Jesus asserted (John 16:11) that the Spirit would convict the world of judgment, "because the prince of this world hath been judged." In Hebrews (2:14, 15) it is said that Christ took upon Himself human nature in order "that through death he might bring to nought him that had the power of death, that is, the Devil." In 1 John 3:8 it is said, "To this end was the Son of God manifested, that he might destroy the works of the Devil." In Revelation 12:9 it is asserted, in connection with Christ's ascension, that Satan was cast down to the earth and his angels with him. According to the passage immediately following (12:10-12), this casting down was not complete or final in the sense of extinguishing his activities altogether, but it involves the potential and certain triumph of God and His saints and the equally certain defeat of Satan. In 1 John 2:13 the young men are addressed as those who "have overcome the evil one." In Revelation 20 the field of the future is covered in the assertion that Satan is "bound a thousand years"; then loosed "for a little time," and then finally "cast into the lake of fire."

A comparison of these passages will convince the careful student that while we cannot construct a definite chronological program for the career of Satan, we are clear in the chief points. He is limited, judged, condemned, imprisoned, reserved for judgment from the beginning. The outcome is certain though the process may be tedious and slow. The victory of Christ is the defeat of Satan; first, for Himself as Leader and Saviour of men (John 14:30); then, for believers (Luke 22:31 Acts 26:18 Romans 16:20 James 4:7 1 John 2:13; 1 John 5:4, 18); and, finally, for the whole world (Revelation 20:10). The work of Christ has already destroyed the empire of Satan.

Satan and God:

In the second place, the relationship of Satan to God, already emphasized, must be kept constantly in mind. The doctrine of Satan merges in the general doctrine concerning angels. It has often been pointed out that the personal characteristics of angels are very little insisted upon. They are known chiefly by their functions: merged, on the one hand, in their own offices, and, on the other, in the activities of God Himself.

In the Old Testament Satan is not represented as a fallen and malignant spirit, but as a servant of Yahweh, performing a divine function and having his place in the heavenly train. In the parallel accounts of David's numbering of Israel (1 Samuel 24:1 1 Chronicles 21:1) the tempting of David is attributed both to Yahweh and Satan. The reason for this is either that `the temptation of men is also a part of his providence,' or that in the interval between the documents the personality of the tempter has more clearly emerged. In this case the account in Chronicles would nearly approximate the New Testament teaching. In the Book of Job (1:6), however, Satan is among the Sons of God and his assaults upon Job are divinely permitted. In Zechariah (3:1, 2) Satan is also a servant of Yahweh. In both these passages there is the hint of opposition between Yahweh and Satan. In the former instance Satan assails unsuccessfully the character of one whom Yahweh honors; while in the latter Yahweh explicitly rebukes Satan for his attitude toward Israel. The unveiling of Satan as a rebellious world-power is reserved for the New Testament, and with this fuller teaching the symbolic treatment of temptation in Genesis is to be connected. There is a sound pedagogical reason, from the viewpoint of revelation, for this earlier withholding of the whole truth concerning Satan. In the early stages of religious thinking it would seem to be difficult, if not impossible, to hold the sovereignty of God without attributing to His agency those evils in the world which are more or less directly connected with judgment and punishment (compare Isaiah 45:7 Amos 3:6). The Old Testament sufficiently emphasizes man's responsibility for his own evil deeds, but super-human evil is brought upon him from above. "When willful souls have to be misled, the spirit who does so, as in Ahab's case, comes from above". The progressive revelation of God's character and purpose, which more and more imperatively demands that the origin of moral evil, and consequently natural evil, must be traced to the created will in opposition to the divine will, leads to the ultimate declaration that Satan is a morally fallen being to whose conquest the Divine Power in history is pledged. There is, also, the distinct possibility that in the significant transition from the Satan of the Old Testament to that of the New Testament we have the outlines of a biography and an indication of the way by which the angels fell.
 
Upvote 0

Mediakira

Senior Member
Jun 6, 2011
877
120
Eaton, Ohio
✟41,539.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Nazarene
Marital Status
Engaged
Politics
US-Libertarian
Satan Essentially Limited:

A third general consideration, based upon data given in the earlier section, should be urged in the same connection. In the New Testament delineation of Satan, his limitations are clearly set forth. He is superhuman, but not in any sense divine. His activities are cosmic, but not universal or transcendent. He is a created being. His power is definitely circumscribed. He is doomed to final destruction as a world-power. His entire career is that of a secondary and dependent being who is permitted a certain limited scope of power-a time-lease of activity (Luke 4:6).

I Know it's alot. I'm sorry for those who don't like alot of reading. But it's also the info that some should be reading.
 
Upvote 0

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Site Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,977
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟1,005,242.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others

I can't show a Christian icon in these forums because I don't believe the Holy Spirit is a distinct person (notice that Paul and Peter failed to send greetings from this 'person' to the churches). One must embrace the whole Nicean Creed to display the Christian icon. Other than that I'm a Christian through and through.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

razeontherock

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2010
26,546
1,480
WI
✟35,597.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Is this a real entity/person/angel, or is Satan just a metaphor for evil? From my study of the Bible, Satan is personally referenced too many times to simply be a metaphor.

I truly LOVE to encounter a non-believer read the Bible correctly

If you take a literal meaning (that Satan is a real, fallen angel out to corrupt every living soul to spite God), why do you think God would allow Satan to be in the garden to tempt Adam and Eve?

Whoa that is a BIG bite to chew! Let's back up here. You cannot take satan as being a "fallen angel" literally, because Scripture does not spell this out clearly for it to be taken literally. That said, I do happen to believe the Bible teaches it, in the sense that G-d expects us to use the brains He gave us.

I also point out what the Bible does NOT say is important, and needs to be respected. We need to guard against closure.

To that end, I'm not sure we can say satan does anything "to spite G-d." I can speak to the subject of what G-d showed me, personally, about why satan was there. And I think it all adds up beautifully. (I'll develop that more after I work my way through the whole thread)


Calling these "great existential questions," seems to do them (and you) a dis-service. By now you know I will often post by simply informing a poster they are looking in a fruitless area. Here I will loudly exclaim - YOU SHOULD PURSUE THIS! I also have much experience with the fact that G-d reserves some things for Himself to be the One who shows the Truth of things. Simply because He Loves us, and actually enjoys our company

So I'm saying that as clearly as I may see some of these things, and as much as I may be willing to attempt to communicate that, it in no way guarantees that I can impart even my own limited understanding to you. We can point the way though ...

Revelation 9

11And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

And also the stories of Satan's personal quarrels with Jesus.

I am NOT suggesting the study of demonology, but there is good reason to think satan and his followers are not the only "class" of evil entity. And this apollyon may well be of a different class than satan.
 
Upvote 0

razeontherock

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2010
26,546
1,480
WI
✟35,597.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single

I will point out the relationship between this, and the Biblical mention of Lucifer as 'merely' a human figure. Yes, this is controversial. Yes, it can be read either way. I happen to conclude (and I think for good reason) that the only Biblical use of the word Lucifer did refer to a tangible human figure, and also to "the devil" as you just alluded to.

I hope this helps the OP in his search for understanding.
 
Upvote 0

razeontherock

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2010
26,546
1,480
WI
✟35,597.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I will also put in my .02 on this little exchange between OldWiseguy's input, and Biker for Christ. I think this type of interaction can be very beneficial for someone in our OP's position!

Obviously, there are many widely divergent views on all sorts of things within Christianity, and this can be confusing to an outsider. I find that Jesus clearly challenges us to think things through: "Love the Lord thy God with all your heart" and all that.

So the Holy Spirit is MUCH more important than any demon/satan / fallen angel or whatever any of that may or may not be. OWG can't conceive of the Holy Spirit as a separate "Person," distinct from the Father and the Son? I can't imagine this would've been an issue in the early Church, and neither should it be an issue for us. I don't think we have any concrete definition of using the word "person" in this sense. And we still see "the seven Spirits of the Lord" before the Throne of God, not only in the Old Testament but re-affirmed in the NT.

So while I have disagreed with OWG on many (minor) points, I agree with everything he is saying here, EXCEPT for the bit about Earth being created for satan, Lucifer, or even any angels. I just don't think we know that much. He is correct that there was a pre-mankind creation. I don't think we can directly link that to the "sons of God" rejoicing with the Lord before creation. These things are possibilities and interesting conjecture, but not revealed to us in any definitive sense.

And that is the realm that the questions of the OP bring us to. I find it interesting that Islam teaches that satan's original sin was refusing to bow to mankind, as ordered. This can be harmonized with Christian beliefs if you look at it allegorically, in the same way that OWG aptly portrayed A&E "eating of the tree" as an allegorical occurrence. And I do remind anyone reading that I am firmly in the territory of what has not been revealed in any definitive sense.

Continuing in that vein, I will attempt to summarize what the Lord showed me when I sought Him for the same things our OP is asking about:

G-d is Faithful. He is True. He took it upon Himself to Create, and to make Creation a reflection of Himself. (So to speak) There are things G-d is not. In what sense? I cannot say, nor am I one to use words like "ontology." I do know my Bible though:

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things]."

Notice the distinction here between form /make, vs create! Compare that to say a finished house vs a blueprint.

I think the tree of the knowledge of good and evil itself fits in perfectly with this. Consider it unformed / unmade evil, of untold proportions. Quietly sitting in one contained space. It is there contributing to the representation of Spiritual reality, consistent with G-d's Nature of being Faithful and True. There is no yin/yang balance of good and evil as equal yet opposite. Goodness is abundant, and evil was as severely limited as possible.

The snake was originally a "covering cherub." We are not told what he covered, but if he was originally a light bearing being, would he not cover darkness? (So where would he be BUT at the forbidden tree?!?) And is that not EXACTLY what he was doing when he said the tree A & E were not to eat of was good and not evil?!? He was still covering darkness with light, except he was in every sense corrupted and fallen. Instead of steering all away from
evil and it's consequences towards purity, he was targeting the pure to cause them to think evil was good and good was evil. Woe to them!

These are realities I think we all NEED to come to terms with. We will all have our own unique perspective, and if we can benefit from one another's POV in any way that is a Blessing.

Anyway, this makes sense to me. I hope it might help someone else ...

"we are not ignorant of his [satan's] devices. (2 Cor 2:11) All of us believers should be able to agree on what matters concerning our OP here
 
Upvote 0

talitha

Cultivate Honduras
Nov 5, 2004
8,365
993
61
Tegucigalpa, Honduras
Visit site
✟37,601.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Humble humility, I believe that when Satan and his angels were cast out of the third heaven, this planet was where they wound up. I believe that mankind was placed here to redeem the planet and defeat the demonic host - a double shame because mankind is comparatively frail. Only through man's voluntary submission to God will this plan work. And according to the Bible, it ultimately will, despite all odds!
 
Upvote 0

humblehumility

Open to All Ideas
May 27, 2011
238
6
✟422.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Ah, my ban is finally released. I guess I'll have to try my hardest to keep out of other atheists' threads. Boo. These responses may take a bit, but I'll do my best.

Mediakira said:
I'd love to help you. In my knowledge, I won't force feed someone who doesn't want there food.

In these conversations, nothing should have to be force-fed. I'll take in any information you have and try to truly understand it, but I feel in no way obligated to actually believe it.

Point being, I'll listen to anything intelligible you have to say. Just remember that my effort asks that you do your best to understand my worldview as well.

Spiritual food is the knowledge of Christ, God, and everything that surrounds the involvement.

You're already being vague with your first point. "Spiritual food" can mean so many things to so many people. What you perceive and truly believe is spiritual food, is not the definition of spiritual food for a Buddhist. You both have proof (albeit subjective), and you both contradict. Either one is right and the other is wrong, or they're both wrong. The only way we could ever pick a winner is by finding what both cases lack to provide…objective proof. Since we have zero objective proof for either, there's no reason to conclude either of them are true. The atheist viewpoint is really that simple.

In my understanding. God is everywhere. In us, the earth, the creator of life.

Subjective

The bible matches our dates of our history and so forth.

You don't think other religions' texts match with historical dates?


Again, subjective. And for the record, I was a believing Christian and I can still feel "God" in my heart just like I did when I believed. I've had thousands of conversations with the guy, that's not something you forget.

But that's all I can give you.

All you have given me is subjective advice (which I share and can relate to) and contradiction. Atheists (at least ones like me) are either looking for

a) objective evidence or
b) a reason to trust subjective evidence
 
Upvote 0

humblehumility

Open to All Ideas
May 27, 2011
238
6
✟422.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
I don't have any massive over-arching theological explanation for that issue specifically, but would return with asking the role of Hitler, Stalin, Nero or any other number of severely wicked persons throughout history.

Hitler, Stalin, and Nero are all products of Satan's influence and original sin. If Satan was not there to trick Adam & Eve, they wouldn't have sinned and the earth would still be paradise and we'd all be naked right now.

God has chosen to intervene so many times in the Bible to serve justice...why not intervene and squash Satan before he had a chance to corrupt the entire species?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

humblehumility

Open to All Ideas
May 27, 2011
238
6
✟422.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
There can be no love unless there is the option to not love.

So, Adam and Eve originally didn't love God? They only started loving him after the serpent deceived them?

If I love a woman and then trap her in my basement and feed her and clothe her and care for her but also rape her, do I love her? Of course not.

There's no point to this analogy. Of course you don't love someone you'd trap and rape.
 
Upvote 0

humblehumility

Open to All Ideas
May 27, 2011
238
6
✟422.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Let's back up here. You cannot take satan as being a "fallen angel" literally, because Scripture does not spell this out clearly for it to be taken literally.

Well there's hundreds of things the Bible doesn't spell out clearly, apparently God wants us to infer using our common sense, judgment, and free will. I have no reason to believe he's not a fallen angel.

To that end, I'm not sure we can say satan does anything "to spite G-d."

Oh I'd say he definitely does. Satan hates God, why? The most logical answer: jealousy. Satan is completely jealous of God's Almighty power, and perhaps wants to show God that he has some power of his own (which he's done a great job at, corrupting mankind and such).

So I'm saying that as clearly as I may see some of these things, and as much as I may be willing to attempt to communicate that, it in no way guarantees that I can impart even my own limited understanding to you. We can point the way though ...

Unfortunately you provided me with no reasons why God would allow Satan to be in the garden to tempt Adam & Eve. It would be incredibly easy for God to either

a) crush Satan and destroy him once and for all
b) lock him in prison for infinity, not 1,000 years

Instead, he allows him to tempt and deceive his first two children, ultimately ruining our chances at salvation and requiring a blood-fest to save us.
 
Upvote 0

humblehumility

Open to All Ideas
May 27, 2011
238
6
✟422.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single

An interesting point you bring up here. Why was there a need for a tree that nobody was allowed to eat from? Is the Universe itself not a perfect, harmonious, and beautiful representation of God's power/nature? It seems to me that a tree from which nobody can eat from is merely put there to tempt people to eat from it.

Goodness is abundant, and evil was as severely limited as possible.

Well that's just flat wrong. Satan is the biggest, most infinite form of Evil you can ever conceive of. And of all the places on Earth, he was hanging out in God's glorious garden with the first two humans God's ever made! Evil was as abundant as it could be, and clearly more abundant than goodness, or else Adam & Eve would have no desire for more.
 
Upvote 0

humblehumility

Open to All Ideas
May 27, 2011
238
6
✟422.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Humble humility, I believe that when Satan and his angels were cast out of the third heaven, this planet was where they wound up.

Subjective thought.

Side note: why not just completely kill of Satan, why the need to abolish him to the planet where God ends up creating us? Clearly we have not overcome Satan, as God had to send Jesus to do what we could not. I see no reason to not just kill of Satan entirely.


I believe that mankind was placed here to redeem the planet and defeat the demonic host - a double shame because mankind is comparatively frail.

Subjective thought.

Only through man's voluntary submission to God will this plan work. And according to the Bible, it ultimately will, despite all odds!

A sad thought, that the only way to glory is through submission. We were all born to submit and accept that we are lowly, broken humans. I'll pass on that belief.
 
Upvote 0

drich0150

Regular Member
Mar 16, 2008
6,407
437
Florida
✟59,834.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Have any Biblical references for that?
Yes I do.
For a simple look we can turn to the fall of man and desern the seperation between God's expressed will and the freedom to choose our own path.


Yeah...what's the point of tempting/baiting someone? That's an awfully crude test.
Your bait, is another mans true choice.

A loving father wouldn't purposefully try to bait his son into doing something wrong.
But if a father wanted to give true freedom of Choice He will not influence the son in the direction He wants the boy to go. Even if the son choose something the Father does not want the son to choose.

That distinction doesn't matter, the garden was heaven on earth.
Actually it does matter because "Heaven" as God primary residence, the Garden was not. God "visited" and walked with Adam in the evenings. The garden was Adam's domain, and in his charge. It was not under the direct control of God as He handed Adam that responsiablity.

It all depends on what you see the purpose of man to be.
Appearently God sees the fall in a different light than you do.

So again, why allow Satan to corrupt the world like that?
So we may have the ablity to choose who or where we wish to spend eternity.
 
Upvote 0

Mediakira

Senior Member
Jun 6, 2011
877
120
Eaton, Ohio
✟41,539.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Nazarene
Marital Status
Engaged
Politics
US-Libertarian

Those type of evidence you will have to find hands on. I don't really have hard evidence unless you watch the episode of "The Face of Jesus- The Shroud of Turin Pt. 1 of 6".

Sorry, to be hard headed. But I don't trust to follow other religions then "Christ" himself. Because He said in the Bible you must choose one god. And it's God's job to change people, not mine. I only can give you information, and give you help if needed. Like if your homeless, or you need a friend, or if your needing help cleaning your house because you've been hurt with two broken arms. etc. God wants us to help others. If we do not, we get casted into the fire. If someone is stubborn to learn. That's that person's decision.

I was a luke-warm Christian since my early teens. Because I keep running into bad luck. But when I became an adult. I did feel Jesus walking up from behind me at work one day. But explaining that to someone who doesn't understand Christianity or someone who doesn't believe in it. Will in fact tell me that I'm wrong, or I'm insane.

I was tought through the reading of the Bible. That when you seek Jesus's face. He'll reveal Himself to you. NO, doubt about it. I'd explain. But we are talking about "Satan" on this forum. Anyway.....

I did post two other ones of "Satan" on here. After the one you mentioned here. I did learn more things about Satan, when looking up that info. It seems by that you didn't read them. It just seems your being selective.

Although, not everyone has concrete evidence of what happened since Adam and Eve. Most of it is being surfaced by people who are digging up stuff around those areas. They did find the "Noah's Arc." They also found the lost city of "Sodomn." And they did find the mummfied head of "John the baptist." But I do not know where they being kept now. I found it on watching discover channel one year. I was possibly a freshman of high school that time. I don't remember the name of the show. You might find it on Youtube. If your interested.

With "Christ", the dates do match. If you did your match and study. You'll find it. B.C. means "Before Christ". A.D. means "After Death". Which means "After the Death of Christ." When Christ died, He was 30 years old. The Bible was created 90 years after "Christ". Because the romans was trying to kill the apostles. 4 of them was selected to create the bible, the others ran from being slaightered. Because the romans wanted to keep control so they only kept certain ones that meant control. Some did get killed, 2 was prisoned and put to death after. Mary Magdaline was pushed out of the membership because she was a woman. Since one part of the scripture of 1 Corinthians 14:34. At this time. It says directly in the bible. The famous "Tiberius Julius Caesar Augustus" is in there. That tides in the time when "Christ" died.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0