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Satan Bound?

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by franklin, May 27, 2002.

  1. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

    +218
    Atheist
    Private
    Some questions for futurists who are still convinced that Satan is alive and well on planet earth.... :cool:

    Did Jesus come to bind Satan and destroy his power?

    Would it disturb you to know that Satan can have no power over you?

    Would it be upsetting to know that God has fulfilled his word and gives everlasting life now?

    Is it unsettling to know we can truly overcome the world?

    Would your life be more confident and victorious if you knew that Satan had no authority to accuse you before God?

    Is it frightening to know there is no demon possession?

    Is it dangerous to believe that our Savior has accomplished what he came to do--destroy Satan and his works?

    Is it heretical to believe the Christian has eternal life, and Satan cannot touch him?

    Does it destroy faith to know that God has fulfilled his word and restored man to himself despite Satan's best worst? efforts?

    Does it destroy hope to know we can overcome the world because Jesus did?
     
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  2. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    If God has restored man, why is there still death and sorrow and pain, when in Revelation it speaks of a time when those things will be brought to an end?
     
  3. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

    +218
    Atheist
    Private
    Hi Mandy, Let me ask you another question.....
    Does man need any help from Satan to commit sin? (Js1:14)
    The heart of man is sinful without the help of Satan.
    The time these things were brought to an end in Revelation as you indicated have taken place at the destruction of Jerusalem and the judgement on national Israel for their rejection of Christ in AD70. All these things have been fulfilled just as Christ had predicted. The view of Revelation is that Satan is destroyed. When reading Revelation one cannot ignore the time statements and the historical setting that is taking place.
    Whose word are we to believe, man's words or the words of Jesus? Satan knew his days were numbered and Christ defeated him just as He said He would and as followers of Christ that should thrill us to no end! I think futurist believers today give to much credit to satan by saying he is still alive! It's easy to put the blame on someone else or the devil or satan when we sin.
    The main question futurists need to ask themselves is do you believe scripture or not?
     
  4. Ozarkpreterist

    Ozarkpreterist New Member

    77
    +1
    Franklin,

    Marvelous post! :clap: If futurists would simply see what preterists are really trying to say, they would be jumping the futurist ship much faster than they are.

    Futurists accuse preterists of being of the Devil. Yet, let me ask you this. Which view is kinder to the Devil? Which view would you want to be right if you were Satan? According to futurists Satan is defeated in position only. He really came through Jesus' finished works relatively unscathed. In fact, his kingdom is destined to grow stronger and stronger. He even gets to become incarnated in some sort of Anti-Christ.

    Futurists will boast that his fate is sealed, and he will be destroyed some day. Yet, think about it. If we keep putting his defeat further and further into the future-- 2000 years and counting, what good is it? If Satan can keep putting his demise off, who has been duped?

    This may shock us, but futurism actually glorifies the Devil. Do we want proof? Just read the futurist posts on this board. For the most part they are about what the Devil is supposedly doing on the earth. Preterist posts are about what Jesus has done. And He has thoroughly defeated the Devil. We should act like it.

    Preterists are out to change the boast of the church from how big the darkness is and how bad things are outside the four walls of the church to how big Jesus is. The church is not the underdog on the earth. We are seated in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus above all rule and authority. We, in other words, are where God is. There is no authority or power on the earth that is higher than the church. Moreover, we are the temple of the Holy Spirit. This means God is where we are. And where is Satan? He is not above us. He is not even eye to eye. He is thoroughly disarmed and crushed beneath our feet. It is about time we started acting according to the truth.

    Preterism is out to change the very mindset of the church form those below to those above. It is by far the most joyous and victorious of all the eschatological viewpoints. And by the way the one that is least kind to Satan.
     
  5. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +39
    Catholic
    Hi Mandy,

    Please keep in mind that preterists look at Revelation depicting a shift in covenants. Preterism is also known as covenant eschatology. I personally prefer that term over preterism. Anyway, I think you're looking at Rev 21:4.

    Rev 21:4 (NIV) - He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

    From a covenantal perspective, this verse points out that the was mourning/crying, pain and even death. But the bold part of the verse says that the old order of things passed away. That's a direct reference to the old covenant or particularly all of Lamentations. Check out Lam 1:2, Lam 1:16, Lam 2:18 and their reference to weeping/mourning. Under the old covenant there was death. 2 Cor 3:6 says that the letter kills and the spirit gives life. The next verse goes on to to say, "Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone..." (2 Cor 3:7) In context to 2 Cor 3:7-18, Paul is referring to two ministries (2 Cor 3:7-10):

    1) The Old covenant ministry (i.e. the law)
    2) The New covenant ministry (i.e. the Holy spirit)

    By the way 2 Cor 3:7-18 is a great passage :)

    So why is there still pain? I don't know. But I do know that Rev 22:15 says that evildoers would continue to exist in the age to come (which I believe is now), and that pain would continue to exist as well, since Rev 22:2 clearly implies such pain (why would there be a need for 'healing of nations' if pain didn't exist?). Fortunately, this is where the Holy Spirit's ministry reveals to us God's glory and his manifested presence :)

    God bless!

    -Jason
     
  6. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +39
    Catholic
    Hi Franklin,

    As a preterist, I'm not sure if I can agree with that statement. I agree with everything else though! :clap:

    I say this because non-believers are the ones 'outside the city' (Rev 22:15), and they're doomed unless God gives them the grace to understand the gospel message! I'm willing to believe that demons CAN hurt them, yet demons can't do a thing to us, unless God sovereignly decides to give us a "thorn in Paul's side" experience (2 Cor 12:7-8).

    Basically, I agree with this article.

    -Jason
     
  7. Pericles

    Pericles Christian

    428
    +1
    Christian
    They have been brought to an end. We are spiritual beings. Our natural state is a spiritual body, not a physical body. Our salvation is spiritual. Our God is spiritual...and our death and separation from God was spiritual. This is the problem Christ came to resolve. A future PHYSICAL return of Christ, a PHYSICAL reign in Jerusalem will not save one single soul, while the stopping of animal sacrifices indeed brought life to the entire world.

    Death, sorrow and pain caused by separation from God have been indeed brought to an end.
     
  8. davo

    davo Member

    471
    +1
    It was SIN not Satan that crouched at the door ready to ensnare Cain. It is SIN and NOT Satan that ensnares today -that's why Heb 12:1 says to "lay aside every weight and sin." Humanity's problem is sin -not Satan, it's DOUBT -not the Devil. And I for one believe in the Victory of God -no "if's" no "but's" lock-stock-and-two-smokin'-barrels! :) So, "What saith the Scripture?" [Rom 4:3]


    *THE DEVILS DOWNFALL*

    HIS DOOM

    Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel."

    2Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

    Jude :6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;


    HIS DEMISE

    Matthew 8:19 And suddenly they cried out, saying, "What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?"

    Matthew 12:28-29 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you. 29Or how can one enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house.

    Mark 1:24 saying, "Let us alone! What have we to do with You, Jesus of Nazareth? Did You come to destroy us? I know who You are--the Holy One of God!"

    Mark 3:27 No one can enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man. And then he will plunder his house.


    HIS DEFEAT

    Luke 10:18 And He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven."

    John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.

    John 16:11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

    Colossians 2:15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.


    HIS DESTRUCTION

    Matthew 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, "Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

    Hebrews 2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

    1John 3:8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

    Revelation 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


    THE BELIEVERS POSITION THEN

    Romans 16:20 And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly.
    The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

    Ephesians 4:27 nor give place to the devil.

    1John 2:13 I write to you, fathers, because you have known Him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, because you have overcome the wicked one. I write to you, little children, because you have known the Father.


    THE BELIEVERS POSITION SINCE THEN

    1John 5:18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one cannot touch him.

    Hebrews 2:5 For He has not put the world to come [i.e., the New Covenant Age], of which we speak, in subjection to angels.


    Just a thought on that last verse [without going right into it]. Before the new world/creation of the New Covenant some angels [good and bad] had a degree of "territorial" sway in the world eg; the princes of Persia and Greece -Dan 10. This now is no longer the case -there is NO LONGER ANY angelic [good or bad] "sway" [1Jn 5:19 = the old covenant world] in this world. All are free to respond to the Spirit and the Bride saying: "COME!" -that is our great commission.

    davo
     
  9. Ozarkpreterist

    Ozarkpreterist New Member

    77
    +1
    12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. Ephesians 6:12 (NASB)

    Paul said that he wrestled against the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. We know this means Satan and his minions. However, in 2 Corinthians 15 and in the book of Revelation we see the casting down of those same rulers and authorities at the Parousia. (By the way this is a good example of the “there but not yet” state of the kingdom of God during the time of Pentecost. In Colossians 2:15 we see that the rulers and authorities disarmed, defeated, and humiliated at the cross. Yet, in Ephesians we see Paul still speaking of wrestling with them. They were waiting and persevering for the consummation of Christ’s finished works that would come at His return.)

    My question is this. Since the church now has a completed and fully consummated victory and the Devil just ain't the same Devil anymore, has the nature of our “spiritual warfare” changed? Was their struggle to enter in and ours now to gain the revelation of our victory in Christ and walk in it? Or is spiritual warfare obsolete altogether? I would appreciate any comments. Thanks.
     
  10. Ozarkpreterist

    Ozarkpreterist New Member

    77
    +1
    Davo,

    Oops! I made the above post before reading yours. You pretty much answered my question before I asked it. It must be the time difference :scratch: . Just kidding.

    So you are saying that much if not all of the spiritual warfare that many Christians do today is pretty much obsolete?
     
  11. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +39
    Catholic
    Hi Ozark,

    I just thought I'd share my thoughts on this:

    I think we still need to partake in 'spiritual warfare' in light of Rev 22:15. We can't just sit around and expect God to move, unless our faith comes alive and such. I think it's essential for us to pray for our 'lost brethren'. But then again, I think we're talk'n about two different things :)

    God bless!

    -Jason
     
  12. davo

    davo Member

    471
    +1
    G'day Ozark,

    "Spiritual warfare changed?" I would say yes -in emphasis. I also probably wouldn't use the term "warfare" -only because that term has many different connotations [although I hear what Jason is saying]. The victory has been gained and that is what we share. "Salvation is a Banquet not a battle."

    Isaiah 25:6-9 And in this mountain [i.e., Kingdom of God] the LORD of hosts will make for all people a feast of choice pieces, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of well-refined wines on the lees. 7And He will destroy on this mountain the surface of the covering cast over all people, and the veil that is spread over all nations. 8He will swallow up death forever, and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from all faces; the rebuke of His people He will take away from all the earth; for the LORD has spoken. 9And it will be said in that day: "Behold, this is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us. This is the LORD; we have waited for Him; we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation."


    On a personal practical level, of course sin and doubt challenge our faith, and dealing with them is the work of sanctification. Passages such as Eph 6:10-18 ARE NOT made null and void in covenant eschatology. Paul, speaking of the ancients that had gone before said "these things happened to them as examples for us... In other words -although certain events or experiences were complete or history, they carried truth and power "in principle" i.e., applied knowledge. How do we confront sin and doubt in our lives [in addition to repentance]? through applying and using the reality of "righeousness," "the gospel," "faith," "salvation," "the Word" etc, ALL the things Paul is talking about.

    And all this we do in the FULL assurance of Christ's COMPLETE victory. :clap:

    davo
     
  13. Auntie

    Auntie THANK YOU JESUS!!

    +603
    Christian
    Married
    And therefore sin will ALWAYS continue in the earth, throughout eternity? :scratch:

    Is that what the Bible teaches?
     
  14. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

    +3,056
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others
    As a matter of fact Aunti, yes it does.

    In describing the "New earth" John makes it clear that sinners still dwell there, outside the new Jerusalems city gates:
    Revelation 22:15
    "15 But outside
    (the city, on the new earth) are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie."

    I found a quote that addresses your questions quite well.
    The following from preteristcosmos.com
    ****************************************

    First, most Christians believe in eternal, or everlasting, punishment. Even if we propose that it is the Devil and "the beast and the false prophet" (Rev. 20:10) who are the only ones who suffer eternally, that would still add up to a cosmos wherein sin and suffering continue forever and ever. To have planet Earth free from sin and suffering while sin and suffering continue elsewhere for eternity (i.e., "the lake of fire") does not solve the philosophical problem of the existence of sin and suffering. Therefore the idea of a universe in which sin and suffering continue for eternity is not at all a uniquely preterist problem. Unless you are a Universalist or an annihilationist, it seems that your objection may have more to do with the locale of sin and suffering than with the mere existence of it.

    Now, it is true that preterists see no prophecy in the Bible which says that every individual on planet Earth will one day be absolutely and literally and in every sense free from all sin and suffering. In fact, preterists do see verses that indirectly say that the existence of sin will continue "forever." Here are some of the verses:

    Ps. 110:4: "Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek."

    Since Christ is a Priest on behalf of sinners "forever," this means that sinners must exist on earth "forever" to enjoy the ministry of forgiveness of sins in Christ.

    Rev. 14:6: "...the Everlasting Gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth..." (Rev. 14:6).

    Since the Gospel, which sole purpose is to be preached to sinners that dwell on the earth, is "everlasting," this means that sinners will be born on earth everlastingly to enjoy the blessings of the Gospel.

    In Rev. 22:2, on "the new earth," we see the "Tree of life" that yields fruit every month, the "leaves" of which are "for the healing of the nations" (Rev. 22:2). This teaches us that in the new earth, "the nations" are in need of continual healing.

    I would like to add here that in light of these passages, we must know that the existence of sin in the universe in no way implies the victory of sin. Nor does the continued existence of sin in the universe at all imply a "stalemate" between righteousness and sin. If it did, then we would be forced to say that God has as of yet won zero decisive victories over sin, since sin still exists. The idea that the mere existence of sin in the universe implies the non-victory of righteousness in the universe is an existential philosophy that devalues all that has thus far been wrought by the cross of Christ.

    It seems that some people will never be satisfied with anything less than a fleshly utopia that is characterized by absolute "behavioral errorlessness" throughout the entire universe (except for in hell). In contrast to this idea of how the universe should be, God says that He created "vessels of wrath fitted to destruction" in order "that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy."

    Sin exists, yet God is victorious over sin every day: "Every morning I will destroy all the wicked of the Land, so as to cut off from the city of the Lord all those who do iniquity" (Ps. 101:8).

    The world in which we live is not "the best of all possible worlds" for the wicked. But it is the best of all possible worlds, "to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose" (Rom. 8:28).


    ***********************************************

    Sin exists, but has absolutely no power to prevent anyone from salvation. How much more "defeated" do you need sin be?
     
  15. Auntie

    Auntie THANK YOU JESUS!!

    +603
    Christian
    Married
    Sin will forevermore abound?
     
  16. Pericles

    Pericles Christian

    428
    +1
    Christian
    parousia70, that's a great post. A question our futurist friends should answer is "If there will be no more sin, physical death, tears, pain, suffering...etc...and if everything will be completely perfect, why will we need God and His grace?" ?

    If Satan, Adam and Eve were able to revolt against God in a "perfect world", what makes you think that it will not happen again in the new world? I would like to see one single Bible passage that says "sin will be completely gone" and will disappear completely.
     
  17. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    Jesus said that there would be an end to pain. sorrow, crying, and death. That obviously hasn't happened yet.
    As long as there is sin, there will be those things. So I gather He was speaking spiritually? Also the new heaven and earth were spiritual too?
     
  18. davo

    davo Member

    471
    +1
    And as Paul says: "but where sin abounds, grace abounds more -exceedingly"

    The "pain and sorrow" was in relation to their forever being stuck under the old covenant system of repeated sacrifices that "could never take away sin" -sin could only be "covered," but in Christ not only was sin forgiven -it was also removed. Hense the passing of the sorrow of sin -"for joy cometh in the morning" -resurrection! :)

    The problem we have when we continue to see things as "spiritual" as against "literal" is we can [unintentionally] devalue the Scriptures -which no believer really seeks to do. Our salvation is 100% spiritual -it is also 100% literal. That's why it is important to make the distinction between "literal" and "temporal." Jesus "literally" meant "you must be born again -but not in a temporal physical materialistic sense. So much of what Redemption pertains to the spiritual realm -HOWEVER, that "spiritual" change DOES have a temporal or materialistic affect in our world as we minister Christ's victory in our sphere of influence -in other words, touching other people's lives with the victory of God.

    Isaiah describes this "New Creation" i.e., New Covenant in terms of sorrow being replaced with joy as children dying at 100 years of age and sinners [still present] at 100 years of age, still being accursed. [this is no millennium] In other words -LIFE goes on, and so does the saving power of the Gospel -it has no use-by-date. There will always be people populating the Presence of God. :)

    Getting a grasp on covenant eschatology starts to happen as you start to see so-called "end time" "end-of-the-world" scriptures in the light of the transition between the Old and New Covenants Worlds that was outworking through the first century church -from Christ's ministry, to the Cross [the central point] and to His Coming [the consumating point] in and around AD70.

    davo
     
  19. Auntie

    Auntie THANK YOU JESUS!!

    +603
    Christian
    Married
    I don't believe that. Ask any survivor of the nuclear bomb that the USA dropped on Japan. I don't think you can comprehend actual pain and sorrow, or you wouldn't believe what you believe. When a nuclear bomb gets dropped in your country, then maybe you can talk about what "no more pain, and no more crying" means.

    I thank my God that the day WILL come when there is NO MORE PAIN.
     
  20. davo

    davo Member

    471
    +1
    Auntie, I know you don't believe -and I'm not about to convince you otherwise, and that's ok. In a "real" sense, when we step through the veil of death [with Christ] earthly fleshly physical pain and sorrow will definitely be left far far behind. :)

    I guess what you've mentioned is somewhat relative to each ones' situation?? However, I stand by my comment re biblical pain and suffering in the context of what is being discussed as that related to the covenants.

    Stepping out of this life [be it through the horror of nuclear war or whatever] without Christ, means stepping into eternity without Christ -now THAT IS pain and suffering -out of covenant with God -LOST.

    davo
     
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