Satan as we know him today was never mentioned in the whole of the Old Testament

[Strong in Him]

Do you understand what I wrote in post #77? It looks to me like you don't understand it. I'll post it here:



If you understood that, you would have known that it's not I who referred to the angel of the Lord (possibly, according to some scholars, the Pre-Incarnate Christ) as Satan. But rather, it's the writer of Numbers who said that. If to you, anyone who says that has committed the "unpardonable sin", you'd be saying that the writer of Numbers has committed such a sin. And since God is the ultimate writer of that passage in Numbers, you are effectively saying that God has committed the unpardonable sin. This must be the worst thing you have ever said. I really hope you will re-consider your stand. It's very wrong and very irreverent. The writer of Numbers and God who inspired the writing could not have committed the unpardonable sin as you seem to suggest.

The word "adversary" does not always refer to the devil.
If someone is rejecting God and disobeying his word, God will become an enemy to them. Before we were saved we were all enemies of God.

The angel of the Lord stood in Balaam's way to stop him from making his journey; that's what Scripture says.
You are the one who is saying that adversary here = Satan. You have come to that conclusion and are making that connection; not the writers of Numbers, you.
Pre-incarnate Christ = the second person of the Trinity before he became flesh and was given the name Jesus. The Trinity is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit; to imply that the second person of the Trinity is Satan, is blasphemous nonsense.

 

[LoAmmi]

I'm aware of this. Why can't Yahweh and Satan be involved in the same events?

Why would they be on the same page if Satan is this great enemy of HaShem? Why would they be working together?

 

[Tree of Life]

Why would they be on the same page if Satan is this great enemy of HaShem? Why would they be working together?

I don't think they're working together. I think that Satan is inciting David for evil. But I think that Yahweh is still sovereign and is inciting David to administer his justice. As Joseph said to his brothers: "you meant it for evil, but God meant it for good." Both Yahweh and Satan are involved in this event, one for evil and the other for righteousness. Yahweh is sovereign even over Satan's evil schemes. He is able to use Satan's schemes for his own purposes.

 

[LoAmmi]

I don't think they're working together. I think that Satan is inciting David for evil. But I think that Yahweh is still sovereign and is inciting David to administer his justice. As Joseph said to his brothers: "you meant it for evil, but God meant it for good." Both Yahweh and Satan are involved in this event, one for evil and the other for righteousness. Yahweh is sovereign even over Satan's evil schemes. He is able to use Satan's schemes for his own purposes.

and with the knowledge of how many of each tribe are Israel has Satan is able to do what? What's the scheme? Why would David listen to this being?

 

[StTruth]

The word "adversary" does not always refer to the devil.
If someone is rejecting God and disobeying his word, God will become an enemy to them. Before we were saved we were all enemies of God.

The angel of the Lord stood in Balaam's way to stop him from making his journey; that's what Scripture says.
You are the one who is saying that adversary here = Satan. You have come to that conclusion and are making that connection; not the writers of Numbers, you.
Pre-incarnate Christ = the second person of the Trinity before he became flesh and was given the name Jesus. The Trinity is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit; to imply that the second person of the Trinity is Satan, is blasphemous nonsense.

Numbers is in Hebrew. The word Satan i's used in Hebrew. Try not to confine yourself only to your English Bible.

 

[LoAmmi]

Numbers is in Hebrew. The word Satan i's used in Hebrew. Try not to confine yourself only to your English Bible.

The word "Satan" is not used since you're making it capital letters and implying "the Satan". "Ha-Satan" or "The Satan" is not there. Satan is which is simply adversary. Not trying to undermine you too much, but let's not hand out misinformation.

 

[Tree of Life]

and with the knowledge of how many of each tribe are Israel has Satan is able to do what? What's the scheme?

The taking of a census could have been for many different functions. Perhaps David was administering a census in order to get an idea of the size of his armies. Perhaps he was motivated out of fear and not out of trust in Yahweh. Perhaps also the census was a way of regulating taxation. Deuteronomy says that kings were not to heavily tax or acquire much wealth.

Either way, the text clearly says that Satan was involved. Does it not?

Why would David listen to this being?

Ask Uriah.

 

[LoAmmi]

The taking of a census could have been for many different functions. Perhaps David was administering a census in order to get an idea of the size of his armies. Perhaps he was motivated out of fear and not out of trust in Yahweh. Perhaps also the census was a way of regulating taxation. Deuteronomy says that kings were not to heavily tax or acquire much wealth.

Either way, the text clearly says that Satan was involved. Does it not?

It does. It also says HaShem spoke to David to command it. Now, we can see this two different ways. David was given the same instruction twice by two different beings for some reason or that because Satan was speaking for HaShem it is the same as HaShem saying it. When acting as a messenger, a person can be said to be speaking for that person sending the message. I think it's the latter as the former just seems weird. Not just weird but completely unremarked upon in the text. A simple reading is that Satan is delivering HaShem's message not that it happened twice.

Ask Uriah.

David's lust for a woman is not Satan.

 

[Tree of Life]

It does. It also says HaShem spoke to David to command it. Now, we can see this two different ways. David was given the same instruction twice by two different beings for some reason or that because Satan was speaking for HaShem it is the same as HaShem saying it. When acting as a messenger, a person can be said to be speaking for that person sending the message. I think it's the latter as the former just seems weird. Not just weird but completely unremarked upon in the text. A simple reading is that Satan is delivering HaShem's message not that it happened twice.

Why would Yahweh issue a command to do something that greatly displeased him? (1 Chronicles 21:7)

 

[LoAmmi]

Why would Yahweh issue a command to do something that greatly displeased him? (1 Chronicles 21:7)

Since Samuel clearly tells us that the Lord ordered this, you tell me. I'm just going to point to the text since it's plain what it says. Unless you think Samuel is mistaken?

 

[Tree of Life]

Since Samuel clearly tells us that the Lord ordered this, you tell me. I'm just going to point to the text since it's plain what it says. Unless you think Samuel is mistaken?

I agree that Satan was a messenger of Yahweh. But I don't believe that Satan so intended this. Satan was being used of Yahweh for purposes unknown to him.

I'm not sure that these texts describe a literal, face-to-face encounter between David and a physical manifestation of Satan. It could've been different from that.

 

[LoAmmi]

I agree that Satan was a messenger of Yahweh. But I don't believe that Satan so intended this. Satan was being used of Yahweh for purposes unknown to him.

I'm not sure that these texts describe a literal, face-to-face encounter between David and a physical manifestation of Satan. It could've been different from that.

It probably wasn't. But I'm part of a faith that doesn't have some evil thing running around being the opponent of HaShem. It'd be like saying an ant on my floor is my evil opponent, except to an even more ridiculous degree.

 

[StTruth]

It probably wasn't. But I'm part of a faith that doesn't have some evil thing running around being the opponent of HaShem. It'd be like saying an ant on my floor is my evil opponent, except to an even more ridiculous degree.

Cool. All the Jews confirm my OP to be correct. Like Jack who sits in the corner, I should say "What a clever boy am I". LOL. Just kidding.

 

[LoAmmi]

Cool. All the Jews confirm my OP to be correct. Like Jack who sits in the corner, I should say "What a clever boy am I". LOL. Just kidding.

Well, it's a long standing belief. Satan is viewed more as HaShem's prosecuting attorney rather than some evil enemy being. He's our enemy I guess I could say. Someone who points to our flaws and shows where we have failed. It fits the episode where Satan is going against the High Priest and is rebuked by HaShem because Satan went too far.

 

[StTruth]

Well, it's a long standing belief. Satan is viewed more as HaShem's prosecuting attorney rather than some evil enemy being. He's our enemy I guess I could say. Someone who points to our flaws and shows where we have failed. It fits the episode where Satan is going against the High Priest and is rebuked by HaShem because Satan went too far.

That's precisely what I said if you will check the posts above. I showed from Job why Satan is an obedient angel of God who reports to God and whose God-given duty is to tempt and test men's devotion to God.

 

[LoAmmi]

That's precisely what I said if you will check the posts above. I showed from Job why Satan is an obedient angel of God who reports to God and whose God-given duty is to tempt and test men's devotion to God.

I'm agreeing with you but expanding a bit more to explain the concept.

 

[Commander]

This comes under apologetics because it's one defence of our faith that we can use against people who argue against it. One argument that I have always heard is why didn't God destroy Satan?

If I were an apologist, my reply would be simple. Satan does not exist. Nowhere in the Old Testament is Satan (as we know him today) ever mentioned. If you want to show me to be wrong, please post one verse at a time and let me deal with each. Otherwise it can lead to a lot of confusion.

My stand is simple - Satan does not exist. He is never mentioned in the OT. Satan is only mentioned in the NT but I believe it's allegorical. But that's a different topic. We'll just confine Satan to the Old Testament.

Because Satan is not even mentioned in the Old Testament, it is reasonable to say that there is no such entity as Satan. It cannot be that the OT totally failed to mention such an important character.

And those who feel inclined to insult me because of my age, I appeal to your sense of justice. If I'm wrong in my argument, show me where I'm wrong. Don't dismiss everything I say as wrong or make derogatory remarks about my age or state later in the thread that you have just discovered to your horror what my age is and you would not have stooped so low as to argue with someone my age (as someone did on another thread). I believe I can hold my ground. Let's cross swords on an even footing.

Young man, I would like to suggest two things to you. (1) As with any book, start at the first page, and read to the last.(2) Get a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, with it you can look up a word like Satan(other words) and see what verses of scripture it is listed in.

 

[Radrook]

No, Jesus wouldn't have been mentioned by name because nobody knew of the name of Jesus in OT times. Satan is different. And I'm not asking for him to be identified by a name. I'm saying the entity we now call Satan was never alluded to in the OT because it doesn't exist.

Who was it that was involved in the dispute with God in the account of Job?

 

[StTruth]

Who was it that was involved in the dispute with God in the account of Job?

An angel who obediently carries out his duty to God as an Adversary, one who meets God regularly, asked by God for his opinion, gives his opinion to God and carries out God's orders and piously obeys any limitations God places on the orders.

 

[JLB777]

And the Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?” So Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.” JOB 1:7

Still waiting for an explanation as to why you would say: "Because Satan is not even mentioned in the Old Testament, it is reasonable to say that there is no such entity as Satan. It cannot be that the OT totally failed to mention such an important character".

Satan is clearly mentioned here and refers to the angelic being that could come to where the meeting before the Lord which was not on earth, as well as move to and fro across the earth.

So far, you have failed at explaining who this Satan is, and that he is mention in the old testament many times.


JLB