Satan as we know him today was never mentioned in the whole of the Old Testament

StTruth

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This comes under apologetics because it's one defence of our faith that we can use against people who argue against it. One argument that I have always heard is why didn't God destroy Satan?

If I were an apologist, my reply would be simple. Satan does not exist. Nowhere in the Old Testament is Satan (as we know him today) ever mentioned. If you want to show me to be wrong, please post one verse at a time and let me deal with each. Otherwise it can lead to a lot of confusion.

My stand is simple - Satan does not exist. He is never mentioned in the OT. Satan is only mentioned in the NT but I believe it's allegorical. But that's a different topic. We'll just confine Satan to the Old Testament.

Because Satan is not even mentioned in the Old Testament, it is reasonable to say that there is no such entity as Satan. It cannot be that the OT totally failed to mention such an important character.

And those who feel inclined to insult me because of my age, I appeal to your sense of justice. If I'm wrong in my argument, show me where I'm wrong. Don't dismiss everything I say as wrong or make derogatory remarks about my age or state later in the thread that you have just discovered to your horror what my age is and you would not have stooped so low as to argue with someone my age (as someone did on another thread). I believe I can hold my ground. Let's cross swords on an even footing.
 
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Larniavc

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This comes under apologetics because it's one defence of our faith that we can use against people who argue against it. One argument that I have always heard is why didn't God destroy Satan?

If I were an apologist, my reply would be simple. Satan does not exist. Nowhere in the Old Testament is Satan (as we know him today) ever mentioned. If you want to show me to be wrong, please post one verse at a time and let me deal with each. Otherwise it can lead to a lot of confusion.

My stand is simple - Satan does not exist. He is never mentioned in the OT. Satan is only mentioned in the NT but I believe it's allegorical. But that's a different topic. We'll just confine Satan to the Old Testament.

Because Satan is not even mentioned in the Old Testament, it is reasonable to say that there is no such entity as Satan. It cannot be that the OT totally failed to mention such an important character.

And those who feel inclined to insult me because of my age, I appeal to your sense of justice. If I'm wrong in my argument, show me where I'm wrong. Don't dismiss everything I say as wrong or make derogatory remarks about my age or state later in the thread that you have just discovered to your horror what my age is and you would not have stooped so low as to argue with someone my age. I believe I can hold my ground. Let's cross swords on an even footing.

Is Jesus mentioned by name in the OT?
 
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dysert

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With all due respect, StTruth, you're wrong. And it has nothing to do with age but with the quality of Bible study exercised. The satan of the NT can't be written off as allegory when properly studied. And we can't confine ourselves to only the OT because of progressive revelation. There are many doctrines that are introduced in the OT but not fleshed out until the NT.

Nevertheless, satan can be found in passages like Isa. 14 and Ezek. 28. And his minions can be found in Dan. 10.

He is real, and is older than the Garden of Eden, where he appeared to Eve. The sooner we realize that the more we realize the need to put on the whole armor of God spoken of in Eph. 6.
 
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StTruth

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Is Jesus mentioned by name in the OT?
No, Jesus wouldn't have been mentioned by name because nobody knew of the name of Jesus in OT times. Satan is different. And I'm not asking for him to be identified by a name. I'm saying the entity we now call Satan was never alluded to in the OT because it doesn't exist.
 
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StTruth

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With all due respect, StTruth, you're wrong. And it has nothing to do with age but with the quality of Bible study exercised. The satan of the NT can't be written off as allegory when properly studied. And we can't confine ourselves to only the OT because of progressive revelation. There are many doctrines that are introduced in the OT but not fleshed out until the NT.

Nevertheless, satan can be found in passages like Isa. 14 and Ezek. 28. And his minions can be found in Dan. 10.

He is real, and is older than the Garden of Eden, where he appeared to Eve. The sooner we realize that the more we realize the need to put on the whole armor of God spoken of in Eph. 6.

Thanks, Dysert, for your response. I agree that the evolution of a religion will see many doctrines being developed over time but that's a different thing. I'm talking about Satan, as we know him today. He's not a doctrine but an entity. For such a pivotal entity in the cosmic history, surely he should be at least mentioned or referred to in the OT? I'll examine the citation you gave.

Isaiah 14 does not talk about Satan at all. That's a common mistake. God was speaking about the King of Babylon. See verse 4. However hyperbolic the language may be, verse 4 tells us that it's all about one person - the King of Babylon who is flesh and blood and not Satan. Satan was not referred to at all.

Similarly, Ez 28 is a diatribe against the Prince of Tyre, 100% human.

Your next reference is Dan 10. But that's not a reference to Satan. Verse 7 says it was a vision. The Bible is full of strange entities seen in vision but they are not real entities. So, you can't use what is seen in a vision (and clearly spelt out to be a vision) as if it were a real entity.

I have read Genesis and I'm positive there is not the slightest allusion made to Satan. If you can be more specific about the verse, I can show you why I think I'm right.

Cheers,

StTruth
 
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dysert

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Thanks, Dysert, for your response. I agree that the evolution of a religion will see many doctrines being developed over time but that's a different thing. I'm talking about Satan, as we know him today. He's not a doctrine but an entity. For such a pivotal entity in the cosmic history, surely he should be at least mentioned or referred to in the OT? I'll examine the citation you gave.

Isaiah 14 does not talk about Satan at all. That's a common mistake. God was speaking about the King of Babylon. See verse 4. However hyperbolic the language may be, verse 4 tells us that it's all about one person - the King of Babylon who is flesh and blood and not Satan. Satan was not referred to at all.

Similarly, Ez 28 is a diatribe against the Prince of Tyre, 100% human.

Your next reference is Dan 10. But that's not a reference to Satan. Verse 7 says it was a vision. The Bible is full of strange entities seen in vision but they are not real entities. So, you can't use what is seen in a vision (and clearly spelt out to be a vision) as if it were a real entity.

I have read Genesis and I'm positive there is not the slightest allusion made to Satan. If you can be more specific about the verse, I can show you why I think I'm right.

Cheers,

StTruth
No doubt you're aware that most conservative scholars see satan as typified in the rulers mentioned in Isa. 14 and Ezek. 28, so we'll disagree there. As for Dan. 10, regardless of what Daniel saw in a vision, it's a fact that something was going on in the spiritual realm that prevented Daniel's prayer from being answered immediately.

You didn't specifically mention why you don't think the serpent in Genesis is satan (cf. 2 Cor. 11:3 and Rev. 12:9).

Btw, have you read the first few chapters of Job? Or do you allegorize that away too?
 
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doubtingmerle

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Is Jesus mentioned by name in the OT?
Yes, both Jesus and Satan are mentioned in the Old Testament:

Then he showed me Joshua [Jesus] the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan. And the LORD said to Satan, “The LORD rebuke you, O Satan! The LORD who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is not this a brand.Now Joshua [Jesus] was standing before the angel, clothed with filthy garments. And the angel said to those who were standing before him, “Remove the filthy garments from him.” And to him he said, “Behold, I have taken your iniquity away from you, and I will clothe you with pure vestments.” And I said, “Let them put a clean turban on his head.” So they put a clean turban on his head and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD was standing by. [Zech 3:1-5]​
 
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mmksparbud

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Besides Zechariah--there is also

1Ch_21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
Job_1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job_1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Job_1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
Job_1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
Job_1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
Job_2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
Job_2:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Job_2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
Job_2:4 And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.
Job_2:6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.
Job_2:7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.
Psa_109:6 Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.
 
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SkyWriting

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My stand is simple - Satan does not exist. He is never mentioned in the OT. Satan is only mentioned in the NT but I believe it's allegorical. But that's a different topic. We'll just confine Satan to the Old Testament.Because Satan is not even mentioned in the Old Testament, it is reasonable to say that there is no such entity as Satan. It cannot be that the OT totally failed to mention such an important character.

You are correct! "It cannot be that the OT totally failed to mention such an important character."

He was mentioned in a few places. But that would be mean to tell
people that Satan was roaming around without having a person
to defend them, eh?
Genesis 3:1
Job 1:6-13
Job 2:1-7
Isaiah 14:12-20
Ezek 28:1-19

Satan was not fully disclosed until after Jesus
was revealed as well.
 
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danny ski

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This comes under apologetics because it's one defence of our faith that we can use against people who argue against it. One argument that I have always heard is why didn't God destroy Satan?

If I were an apologist, my reply would be simple. Satan does not exist. Nowhere in the Old Testament is Satan (as we know him today) ever mentioned. If you want to show me to be wrong, please post one verse at a time and let me deal with each. Otherwise it can lead to a lot of confusion.

My stand is simple - Satan does not exist. He is never mentioned in the OT. Satan is only mentioned in the NT but I believe it's allegorical. But that's a different topic. We'll just confine Satan to the Old Testament.

Because Satan is not even mentioned in the Old Testament, it is reasonable to say that there is no such entity as Satan. It cannot be that the OT totally failed to mention such an important character.

And those who feel inclined to insult me because of my age, I appeal to your sense of justice. If I'm wrong in my argument, show me where I'm wrong. Don't dismiss everything I say as wrong or make derogatory remarks about my age or state later in the thread that you have just discovered to your horror what my age is and you would not have stooped so low as to argue with someone my age (as someone did on another thread). I believe I can hold my ground. Let's cross swords on an even footing.
He certainly is mentioned on two or three occasions, but there's no textual evidence that he stands against Gd nor that he's a fallen angel. He simply is one of the angels created to perform a certain task. The Satan, as known today, is a much later evolution/addition to the character. So, based on the OT text itself, you're 50% right.
 
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StTruth

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No doubt you're aware that most conservative scholars see satan as typified in the rulers mentioned in Isa. 14 and Ezek. 28, so we'll disagree there. As for Dan. 10, regardless of what Daniel saw in a vision, it's a fact that something was going on in the spiritual realm that prevented Daniel's prayer from being answered immediately.

Your conservative scholars and I don't disagree on Is 14 and Ez 28 in a sense. It was hyperbolic language used to denigrate the rulers who were 100% human. Eg if you don't like Hilary Clinton and you call her an ogre, you would be absolutely correct but that doesn't mean you really believe ogres exist.

You didn't specifically mention why you don't think the serpent in Genesis is satan (cf. 2 Cor. 11:3 and Rev. 12:9).

Your references are irrelevant. I think I made it abundantly clear in the OP that I'm limiting it to only the OT. The citations you gave are all from the NT.

Btw, have you read the first few chapters of Job? Or do you allegorize that away too?

Yes, I have and very carefully too. I don't see Satan as we know him today. The Adversary in Job is a servant of God who continues to obey God and take orders from God. He sees God in a meeting once a week and reports to God what he sees as a part of his continuing duty to God. He is clearly portrayed as one of God's angels whose duty is to tempt men to see the extent of their devotion to God. He is God's compliant angel. That's not the Satan as we know him today.
 
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StTruth

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Yes, both Jesus and Satan are mentioned in the Old Testament:

Then he showed me Joshua [Jesus] the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan. And the LORD said to Satan, “The LORD rebuke you, O Satan! The LORD who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is not this a brand.Now Joshua [Jesus] was standing before the angel, clothed with filthy garments. And the angel said to those who were standing before him, “Remove the filthy garments from him.” And to him he said, “Behold, I have taken your iniquity away from you, and I will clothe you with pure vestments.” And I said, “Let them put a clean turban on his head.” So they put a clean turban on his head and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD was standing by. [Zech 3:1-5]​

Hi,

This is from a vision. It's full of allegory. I've said earlier that you can't have the existence of a being or an entity referred to in a vision where there are many allegorical images. You can't use such a vision as evidence for the existence of such a being. Many visions have lions or eagles with supernatural powers. You can't say there are supernatural lions or supernatural eagles. The visions are to tell a tale and what's seen in the vision is nothing more than symbolisms of something else. Just like the vision of the ten-headed dragon in Rev. You can't say such a creature exists in reality.
 
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StTruth

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Besides Zechariah--there is also

1Ch_21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
Job_1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job_1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Job_1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
Job_1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
Job_1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
Job_2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
Job_2:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Job_2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
Job_2:4 And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.
Job_2:6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.
Job_2:7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.
Psa_109:6 Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.

Hi and thanks for this post.
You have broadly, 3 different sources. Your citations from Job can be dismissed - see what I wrote about Satan in Job a few posts up. Job's Satan is not the Satan we know today. Please see my explanation in post #11.

The same applies to Ps 109:6 where Satan appears as the Adversary (angel obedient to God) whose duty it is to tempt men to see how devoted they really are to God.

1 Chr 21:1 is more interesting. It reads:

Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel.​

But the Bible itself was using the word "satan" to express an emotion not to indicate the existence of a mythical being. And how do I know that? Because the Bible says so itself. Look at 2 Sam 24:1 which describes the same incident and let's look at the language used in that verse:

Again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, ‘Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.’​

So what have we here? Who incited David to take a census? In 1 Chr 21:1 it's Satan who incited David and in 2 Sam 24:1, it's the anger of the Lord that incited David. So, Satan = the anger of the Lord? Obviously, Satan, as used in Chr is not a being or an entity but just an emotion - that of anger.
 
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mmksparbud

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Your conservative scholars and I don't disagree on Is 14 and Ez 28 in a sense. It was hyperbolic language used to denigrate the rulers who were 100% human. Eg if you don't like Hilary Clinton and you call her an ogre, you would be absolutely correct but that doesn't mean you really believe ogres exist.



Your references are irrelevant. I think I made it abundantly clear in the OP that I'm limiting it to only the OT. The citations you gave are all from the NT.



Yes, I have and very carefully too. I don't see Satan as we know him today. The Adversary in Job is a servant of God who continues to obey God and take orders from God. He sees God in a meeting once a week and reports to God what he sees as a part of his continuing duty to God. He is clearly portrayed as one of God's angels whose duty is to tempt men to see the extent of their devotion to God. He is God's compliant angel. That's not the Satan as we know him today.


So, am I understanding you correctly---you want to see Satan only in the OT, but as a Christian you want to use only the NT for Jesus? May I ask why that is? Do you object to the NT when it comes to clarifying anything else about something in the OT, or just Satan? Conversely, do you object to using the OT for clarifying something in the NT?? Do you not believe that Jesus and all the first Christians used only the OT for all their theology as that is all they had??
 
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brinny

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Satan as we know him today was never mentioned in the whole of the Old Testament
This comes under apologetics because it's one defence of our faith that we can use against people who argue against it. One argument that I have always heard is why didn't God destroy Satan?

If I were an apologist, my reply would be simple. Satan does not exist. Nowhere in the Old Testament is Satan (as we know him today) ever mentioned. If you want to show me to be wrong, please post one verse at a time and let me deal with each. Otherwise it can lead to a lot of confusion.

My stand is simple - Satan does not exist. He is never mentioned in the OT. Satan is only mentioned in the NT but I believe it's allegorical. But that's a different topic. We'll just confine Satan to the Old Testament.

Because Satan is not even mentioned in the Old Testament, it is reasonable to say that there is no such entity as Satan. It cannot be that the OT totally failed to mention such an important character.

And those who feel inclined to insult me because of my age, I appeal to your sense of justice. If I'm wrong in my argument, show me where I'm wrong. Don't dismiss everything I say as wrong or make derogatory remarks about my age or state later in the thread that you have just discovered to your horror what my age is and you would not have stooped so low as to argue with someone my age (as someone did on another thread). I believe I can hold my ground. Let's cross swords on an even footing.

What are you basing your premise in the title of this thread, and your OP ON?

For instance, did you read the ENTIRE Old Testament and THEN come to that conclusion?

I will respond further, after you respond to my post.

Thank you kindly.
 
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JLB777

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This comes under apologetics because it's one defence of our faith that we can use against people who argue against it. One argument that I have always heard is why didn't God destroy Satan?

If I were an apologist, my reply would be simple. Satan does not exist. Nowhere in the Old Testament is Satan (as we know him today) ever mentioned. If you want to show me to be wrong, please post one verse at a time and let me deal with each. Otherwise it can lead to a lot of confusion.

My stand is simple - Satan does not exist. He is never mentioned in the OT. Satan is only mentioned in the NT but I believe it's allegorical. But that's a different topic. We'll just confine Satan to the Old Testament.

Because Satan is not even mentioned in the Old Testament, it is reasonable to say that there is no such entity as Satan. It cannot be that the OT totally failed to mention such an important character.

And those who feel inclined to insult me because of my age, I appeal to your sense of justice. If I'm wrong in my argument, show me where I'm wrong. Don't dismiss everything I say as wrong or make derogatory remarks about my age or state later in the thread that you have just discovered to your horror what my age is and you would not have stooped so low as to argue with someone my age (as someone did on another thread). I believe I can hold my ground. Let's cross swords on an even footing.

Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel. 1 Chronicles 21:1
 
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JLB777

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This comes under apologetics because it's one defence of our faith that we can use against people who argue against it. One argument that I have always heard is why didn't God destroy Satan?

If I were an apologist, my reply would be simple. Satan does not exist. Nowhere in the Old Testament is Satan (as we know him today) ever mentioned. If you want to show me to be wrong, please post one verse at a time and let me deal with each. Otherwise it can lead to a lot of confusion.

My stand is simple - Satan does not exist. He is never mentioned in the OT. Satan is only mentioned in the NT but I believe it's allegorical. But that's a different topic. We'll just confine Satan to the Old Testament.

Because Satan is not even mentioned in the Old Testament, it is reasonable to say that there is no such entity as Satan. It cannot be that the OT totally failed to mention such an important character.

And those who feel inclined to insult me because of my age, I appeal to your sense of justice. If I'm wrong in my argument, show me where I'm wrong. Don't dismiss everything I say as wrong or make derogatory remarks about my age or state later in the thread that you have just discovered to your horror what my age is and you would not have stooped so low as to argue with someone my age (as someone did on another thread). I believe I can hold my ground. Let's cross swords on an even footing.

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.
Job 1:6
 
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StTruth

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You are correct! "It cannot be that the OT totally failed to mention such an important character."

He was mentioned in a few places. But that would be mean to tell
people that Satan was roaming around without having a person
to defend them, eh?
Genesis 3:1
Job 1:6-13
Job 2:1-7
Isaiah 14:12-20
Ezek 28:1-19

Satan was not fully disclosed until after Jesus
was revealed as well.

Hi and thanks for the post.

I have explained why the Job, Isaiah 14 and Ez 28 references do not refer to Satan as we know him today at all. See post #11 for my full explanation.

Let's now look at the only reference you gave that I have not explained yet. Gen 3:1.

Gen 3:1 reads:

Now the snake was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, ‘Did God really say, “You must not eat from any tree in the garden”?’​

Where is Satan mentioned? I know you are going to say the snake is Satan but that is an interpretation that is brought on much later in NT times. In the OP, I have made it clear that the scope of this scrutiny is only on OT. There are reasons why NT writers cooked up this Satan entity but it's too much to talk about here. We'll have to start another thread to discuss it if you are really interested.

As matters stand, Gen 3 talks about the snake alone. There's no third party entering the picture. Satan does not feature at all. Words such as "of all the wild animals", the snake is more crafty shows clearly that Gen 3 talks about a real animal. Even later, when God cursed the snake to make it slither and eat sand (the ancients thought snakes ate sand because they didn't know the exposed tongue is not to taste the dirt but to sense vibration), it's very clear that Genesis 3 is all about the snake and has nothing to do with Satan.
 
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JLB777

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This comes under apologetics because it's one defence of our faith that we can use against people who argue against it. One argument that I have always heard is why didn't God destroy Satan?

If I were an apologist, my reply would be simple. Satan does not exist. Nowhere in the Old Testament is Satan (as we know him today) ever mentioned. If you want to show me to be wrong, please post one verse at a time and let me deal with each. Otherwise it can lead to a lot of confusion.

My stand is simple - Satan does not exist. He is never mentioned in the OT. Satan is only mentioned in the NT but I believe it's allegorical. But that's a different topic. We'll just confine Satan to the Old Testament.

Because Satan is not even mentioned in the Old Testament, it is reasonable to say that there is no such entity as Satan. It cannot be that the OT totally failed to mention such an important character.

And those who feel inclined to insult me because of my age, I appeal to your sense of justice. If I'm wrong in my argument, show me where I'm wrong. Don't dismiss everything I say as wrong or make derogatory remarks about my age or state later in the thread that you have just discovered to your horror what my age is and you would not have stooped so low as to argue with someone my age (as someone did on another thread). I believe I can hold my ground. Let's cross swords on an even footing.

And the Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?” So Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.” JOB 1:7
 
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JLB777

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This comes under apologetics because it's one defence of our faith that we can use against people who argue against it. One argument that I have always heard is why didn't God destroy Satan?

If I were an apologist, my reply would be simple. Satan does not exist. Nowhere in the Old Testament is Satan (as we know him today) ever mentioned. If you want to show me to be wrong, please post one verse at a time and let me deal with each. Otherwise it can lead to a lot of confusion.

My stand is simple - Satan does not exist. He is never mentioned in the OT. Satan is only mentioned in the NT but I believe it's allegorical. But that's a different topic. We'll just confine Satan to the Old Testament.

Because Satan is not even mentioned in the Old Testament, it is reasonable to say that there is no such entity as Satan. It cannot be that the OT totally failed to mention such an important character.

And those who feel inclined to insult me because of my age, I appeal to your sense of justice. If I'm wrong in my argument, show me where I'm wrong. Don't dismiss everything I say as wrong or make derogatory remarks about my age or state later in the thread that you have just discovered to your horror what my age is and you would not have stooped so low as to argue with someone my age (as someone did on another thread). I believe I can hold my ground. Let's cross swords on an even footing.

Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?” Job 1:8
 
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