Satan as we know him today was never mentioned in the whole of the Old Testament

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

Did God hide Satan?

Either he hid him or he is a murderer a rapist a sinner. Either satan is responsible or God is responsible whoever is responsible is the true sinner. Ask yourself very carefully if you think God is a sinner. Or even capable of it.

 

[StTruth]

God did not tell a white lie. He just never mentions satan. He says just says do my will and receive a reward or go against my will and suffer the consequences. You don't seem to want to believe the bible means what it says. But thats where faith comes in. How can you have true fellowship with God if you don't believe what he told men of God to write? You are also showing some immaturity which I pray you will learn to humble yourself if you want to have an honest open dialogue and maybe learn something yourself. I humble myself and I always open to the possibility of being wrong. You don't seem to think you can be wrong and theres no discussion to be had with such a person.

Heres the link.

http://www.truthortradition.com/articles/you-are-the-only-you-god-has

Read the Bible yourself. It says God commanded the people of Israel to kill every man, woman and child. In the attack on the city of Ai, they killed everyone in Ai but one man kept some souvenirs of the plunder. God ordered that he be stoned to death together with his entire family, presumably, children too. The Bible says God told them to do that.

In the story of the Prophet Elisha cursing the 42 boys for calling him "Bald Head", the Bible says specifically that God sent two she-bears to tear the boys to pieces. The Bible says God did it. It was not just silent.

Every act of carnage and unjust cruelty that we read of is clearly stated to be done by God or that God ordered it or the Spirit of God entered a person and he commanded the killing.

You are only reading a very small part of the Bible where God says he will reward those who obey him and punish those who disobey. There are millions of places in the Bible where God is named as the author of killings and carnage including the killing of babies and children and old folks and the raping of Midianite prepubescent girls who were virgins. The prepubescent girls who were not virgins would have to be killed along with their brothers and older sisters and parents.

Whatever version of the Bible you use, God's name is clearly implicated.

 

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

Read the Bible yourself. It says God commanded the people of Israel to kill every man, woman and child. In the attack on the city of Ai, they killed everyone in Ai but one man kept some souvenirs of the plunder. God ordered that he be stoned to death together with his entire family, presumably, children too. The Bible says God told them to do that.

In the story of the Prophet Elisha cursing the 42 boys for calling him "Bald Head", the Bible says specifically that God sent two she-bears to tear the boys to pieces. The Bible says God did it. It was not just silent.

Every act of carnage and unjust cruelty that we read of is clearly stated to be done by God or that God ordered it or the Spirit of God entered a person and he commanded the killing.

You are only reading a very small part of the Bible where God says he will reward those who obey him and punish those who disobey. There are millions of places in the Bible where God is named as the author of killings and carnage including the killing of babies and children and old folks and the raping of Midianite prepubescent girls who were virgins. The prepubescent girls who were not virgins would have to be killed along with their brothers and older sisters and parents.

Whatever version of the Bible you use, God's name is clearly implicated.

There is a figure of speech called metonymy. Which God uses that explains why it says God instead of satan ordering death and sickness etc...

It is explained in this link.http://www.truthortradition.com/articles/the-figure-of-speech-metonymy-as-used-in-the-bible

The main parts to know are

"In the Bible, most especially in the Old Testament in regard to the cause of evil, sin, and suffering, we find numerous records where the subject of a sentence is said to be the cause of an event, when in reality something else (another subject) is the cause. This is the figure of speech Metonymy of the Subject, in which one subject is put in place of another subject with which it stands in a definite relation."

"A good illustration of how one subject is put for another is found in comparing the two seemingly contradictory biblical accounts of the death of King Saul. Remember that in the Old Testament, as we have noted, God was perceived as the ultimate cause of both positive and negative circumstances, and as sovereign in the sense that He controlled everything that happened. In 1 Samuel 31:4 and 5, the Word of God states that Saul died by committing suicide, falling upon his sword. Yet, 1 Chronicles 10:14 says that “the Lord put him to death” for disobeying the Word of God and for enquiring of a familiar spirit.

How do we reconcile these apparently conflicting statements? We do so by recognizing that the latter statement is the figure of speech Metonymy of the Subject. The actual subject, Saul (as stated in 1 Samuel 31) is exchanged for another subject, God, with which it stands in a definite relation. The relation between Saul and God is that it was God who gave Saul His commandments, and Saul disobeyed them. Thus God can, in one sense, be said to be the “cause” of Saul’s death. By breaking God’s laws, Saul broke himself against them.

By his own choice, Saul separated himself from God and His blessings, and therefore faced the consequences of his actions without the benefit of God’s grace and mercy. Because of his own sin, Saul found himself in a hopeless predicament, and killed himself. Only in the sense that God’s Word was the “immovable object,” against which Saul rebelled, could it be said that God “put him to death.” In concluding this chapter, we will see why God used this figurative language in the Old Testament.

Just as there is a relation between Saul and God such that “Saul” can be exchanged for “God” by Metonymy of the Subject, so there is a relation between Satan and God such that they can be exchanged by Metonymy of the Subject."

 

[JackRT]

Either he hid him or he is a murderer a rapist a sinner. Either satan is responsible or God is responsible whoever is responsible is the true sinner. Ask yourself very carefully if you think God is a sinner. Or even capable of it.

I have never, and do not now, question God. I do, however, question how we understand God.

 

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

I have never, and do not now, question God. I do, however, question how we understand God.

And it is very important we as a church keep digging further and further to the truth to figure out these issues that divide the church. So I think we agree here.

 

[miknik5]

This comes under apologetics because it's one defence of our faith that we can use against people who argue against it. One argument that I have always heard is why didn't God destroy Satan?

If I were an apologist, my reply would be simple. Satan does not exist. Nowhere in the Old Testament is Satan (as we know him today) ever mentioned. If you want to show me to be wrong, please post one verse at a time and let me deal with each. Otherwise it can lead to a lot of confusion.

My stand is simple - Satan does not exist. He is never mentioned in the OT. Satan is only mentioned in the NT but I believe it's allegorical. But that's a different topic. We'll just confine Satan to the Old Testament.

Because Satan is not even mentioned in the Old Testament, it is reasonable to say that there is no such entity as Satan. It cannot be that the OT totally failed to mention such an important character.

And those who feel inclined to insult me because of my age, I appeal to your sense of justice. If I'm wrong in my argument, show me where I'm wrong. Don't dismiss everything I say as wrong or make derogatory remarks about my age or state later in the thread that you have just discovered to your horror what my age is and you would not have stooped so low as to argue with someone my age (as someone did on another thread). I believe I can hold my ground. Let's cross swords on an even footing.

The age old lie from the age old liar remains today and the sons of THE KINGDOM of GOD(whom GOD has transferred out of the kingdom of darkness and brought into fellowship with HIS SON through faith in HIS BLOOD which washes us and brings us into a right and restored and reconciled relationship with THE FATHER) will, in the end, testify

 

[miknik5]

You wrote in the title of your thread:

Satan as we know him today?


Really ?

And so what does this mean and attest to

Do you then testify that Satan does indeed exist and that he is a lying spirit who hates the SON knows THE TRUTH but desires to deceive men into believing bits and pieces and distortions and suggestions of TRUTH by still whispering his age old lie:

GOD did not really say.

 

[JLB777]

6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. 7 And the Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?”

So Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.”

8 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?”

9 So Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for nothing?10 Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!”

12 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person.” Job 1:6-12


9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Revelation 12:9

Satan is described as the Serpent, who we know from the Garden of Eden that deceived Eve.

But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 2 Corinthians 11:3


So we can apply the name Satan to the serpent in the Garden as well as what is mention in Job.

Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”

2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’”

4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” Genesis 3:1-5


Those who claim Satan is not mentioned in the old testament are in error.

We who are of the light, should expose him.


JLB

 

[miknik5]

Is there or is there not a spiritual battle for the souls of men.

And is the SECTETS of the KINGDOM of GOD given to all?
Two kingdoms are being built up
Two fathers
And two feasts being prepared

And only those who have the RIGHT GARMENT can cone to the wedding feast of THE LAMB

The others will be the feast

 

[JackRT]

Those who claim Satan is not mentioned in the old testament are in error.

The claim in the OP refers to Satan as we understand today. Nothing in your posts refutes that. In Job Satan is just another angelic messenger and not an evil figure. In Genesis we find a serpent and nothing more. Revelation is certainly not OT. The conflation of the Serpent, Satan and Lucifer did not occur until very late in the OT. For example,it was the second-century Christian martyr, Justin of Samaria, who was first to argue that Satan appeared as a serpent to tempt Adam and Eve to disobey God.

 

[miknik5]

The claim in the OP refers to Satan as we understand today. Nothing in your posts refutes that. In Job Satan is just another angelic messenger and not an evil figure. In Genesis we find a serpent and nothing more. Revelation is certainly not OT. The conflation of the Serpent, Satan and Lucifer did not occur until very late in the OT. For example,
it was the second-century Christian martyr, Justin of Samaria, who was first to argue that Satan appeared as a serpent to tempt Adam and Eve to disobey God.

Isaiah 8. The TRUTH that GOD sent HIS SON has shut up the mouths of every and any other lying spirit who suggests more than what GOD has said by HIS WORD

Where where are your "wisemen" now?

Let them tell what the LORD Saboath will do

And when they tell you to seek spirits should not a people consult their GOD?

To the dead(spirits) for the LIVING ONE?

To the TESTIMONY and THE LAW
If they speak not according to the WORD it is because there is no LIGHT therein

 

[Paul Yohannan]

I don't like some of them one bit and I have decided to ignore them totally. I know three persons who lost their faith after joining CF because of the Christian fundamentalists. I've also been introduced to a chap who's an adult now but who was in CF a very long time ago when he was my age. But he was the fiery kind and he got so mad with some of the Christians that he totally dropped his faith, left the church and now he's doing a lot of work in the Richard Dawkins' Foundation. He now views Christianity as his Enemy No. 1. He admitted he was impetuous but he said he was grateful to all the Christians for pushing him out of the faith and now he sees a lot of good in promoting atheism. He's very successful with people my age in England. He's a hereditary peer and doesn't have to work for a living and he goes abroad very often to Asia and Africa where he tells people there is no God.

This is a compelling argument in favour of Lords reform, or perhaps against it; had they not chucked out the hereditary peers in 1998 the noble lord in question might have something better to do with his time.

Like I've said, we are mostly anonymous here so Christians should be particularly careful about what they say and how they react. Not all of us are of the same maturity. I'm ok and I'm cool because I have the maturity of people three times my age but a lot of people lack maturity. Like my classmates who have lost their faith warned me about CF because they say there are nasty Christians in there. I asked them why they didn't ignore the nasty ones but of course I know the answer. They're immature. I'm very rational and I don't care if they taunt me or try to bait me. I just skip their posts. It's so easy to ignore people who are just plain nasty.

This is a valid point.

My vicar tells me that fundamentalists don't mind if they provoke someone to leave the faith because they believe they're saved anyway because they believe in Jesus. So they can do whatever they want to do and they are still forgiven. That explains why some of them can be very stinging in their insults. It's a doctrine that only fundamentalists believe in - something they call "assurance of salvation". Apparently, fundamentalists are grilled since a very early age that they are saved, full stop. Nothing they do can unseat their salvation except if they leave their fundamentalist church. So, actions don't matter any more but they'll cling tenaciously to their fundamentalist beliefs, come what may.

This is certainly true regarding fundamentalist Calvinists.

But I'm OK and they don't bother me because, like I've said, we're anonymous. They can maliciously spread all kinds of lies all over the world about St Truth for all I care. LOL.

I've read so much about them on the papers. The fundamentalist church picketing at the funerals of gays and soldiers. One of them is called Westboro or something like that. I can't remember the denomination but I think it's Baptist. I was horrified to read about them. And you think I shouldn't alienate such people? I'm glad I don't know a single fundamentalist in real life.

My fear is that you might fall back on labelling all Christians you disagree with as "fundamentalist." An extremely broad church orientation does not preclude the existence of religious pariahs; someone who is exceedingly Latitudinarian might make fundamentalists the new heretics as it were.

 

[Radrook]

As we know him today is based on the full illumination of both OT and NT scriptures which constitutes the full revelation of God's will as written for mankind to know. In short, God did NOT intend for Satan to be known in the full sense of His word until his word was revealed completely via the addition of the NT.

 

[Uber Genius]

Nowhere in the Old Testament is Satan (as we know him today) ever mentioned. If you want to show me to be wrong, please post one verse at a time and let me deal with each.

Take your pick.

Now there are many other meanings as all words have a lexical range. But here are the passages that interpreters thought the usage was personal.

Further we see Jesus talk more about Satan than all other authors combined.

Strong’s Definitions H7853; an opponent; especially (with the article prefixed) Satan, the arch-enemy of good:—adversary, Satan, withstand.

Look for the definite article prefixed in the Hebrew text. That's how the interpreters consistently avoided your mistaken exegesis.

1Ch 21:1

And Satan H7854 stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
Job 1:6

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan H7854came also among them.
Job 1:7

And the LORD said unto Satan, H7854 Whence comest thou? Then Satan H7854 answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Job 1:8

And the LORD said unto Satan, H7854 Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
Job 1:9

Then Satan H7854 answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
Job 1:12

And the LORD said unto Satan, H7854 Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan H7854 went forth from the presence of the LORD.
Job 2:1

Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan H7854came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
Job 2:2

And the LORD said unto Satan, H7854 From whence comest thou? And Satan H7854 answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Job 2:3

And the LORD said unto Satan, H7854 Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
Job 2:4

And Satan H7854 answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.
Job 2:6

And the LORD said unto Satan, H7854 Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.
Job 2:7

So went Satan H7854 forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.
Psa 109:6

Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan H7854stand at his right hand.
Zec 3:1

And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan H7854 standing at his right hand to resist him.
Zec 3:2

And the LORD said unto Satan, H7854 The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; H7854 even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

 

[JackRT]

God didn't create Satan, man did. Satan (ha'shaitan) occurs by name in the Old Testament in the Book of Job, and here it's clear that Satan is not the Devil! The Devil is supposedly banished from the presence of God, yet in Job, Satan is allowed to talk with and to come and go from God's presence and on a mission for God yet! What's going on? Satan here is not "the Devil" but sort of God's prosecuting attorney. There is a very common perception that the 'Lucifer' in Isaiah 14:12ff refers to Satan, the supernatural personification of evil. I think that this misconception comes from two sources. The first is wishful thinking in the sense that it is nice to think that 'the Enemy' will get his come-uppance eventually. The second has to do with the old caution that scripture is to be read only 'in context'. This requires going back and reading all of Isaiah 13 and the earlier verses in Isaiah 14. When this is done we suddenly realize that scripture is not speaking of a supernatural Satan at all but of a Babylonian king with an immense ego. Read Isaiah 14: " 4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:" What follows is a long rant against this oppressive king filled with numerous reference to his human nature like Isaiah 14: "16 Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble, 17 the man who made the world a desert, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?" This passage is in no way a reference to Satan or the devil. The Jews did not originally believe in devils but they picked up this concept during the Babylonian Exile from the Persians who followed Zoroastrianism. The Zoroastrians believed in both a god of good (Ahura-Mazda) and a god of evil (Ahrulman) engaged in a cosmic struggle. The Jews picked up and ran with this idea. It was easy to cast YHWH in the role of the God of good. They took also the angel ha'shaitan (Satan) in the book of Job and recast that character as Satan the near divine force of evil. Up to that time, their concept of God was of a being responsible for everything, both good and evil. Isaiah 45:7 is just one quote that demonstrates this. The Jews never connected Satan to the serpent in the Garden of Eden. It was the second-century Christian martyr, Justin of Samaria, who was first to argue that Satan appeared as a serpent to tempt Adam and Eve to disobey God.