Sanders VS Clinton

[Rion]

You need a "doesn't matter, Bernie should've probably been the candidate" option.

Because the only mention of abortion in the bible seems to be god commanding it be done to certain people and/or nations.

Except that you're wrong.

• An unborn child that is killed is considered murder in OT law.
• In Psalm 139 David wrote: “My frame was not hidden from You, when I was made in secret, and skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth; Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; and in Your book were all written; the days that were ordained for me, when as yet there was not one of them.”
• In Jeremiah, God tells him: “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

Plus other writings. There seems to have been enough that the Didache (1st Century Christian manual) has:

"Do not murder; do not commit adultery"; do not corrupt boys; do not fornicate; "do not steal"; do not practice magic; do not go in for sorcery; do not murder a child by abortion or kill a newborn infant. "Do not covet your neighbor's property; do not commit perjury; do not bear false witness"; do not slander; do not bear grudges. Do not be double-minded or double-tongued, for a double tongue is "a deadly snare." Your words shall not be dishonest or hollow, but substantiated by action. Do not be greedy or extortionate or hypocritical or malicious or arrogant. Do not plot against your neighbor. Do not hate anybody; but reprove some, pray for others, and still others love more than your own life.

Interestingly enough, the Bible itself shows that causing an accidental miscarriage doesn't carry the same penalty as causing an accidental death.

Exodus 21:22 “If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that 1she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband 2may demand of him, and he shall apay 3as the judges decide.
23 “But if there is any further injury, athen you shall appoint as a penalty life for life,

 

[LoAmmi]

Exodus 21:22 “If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that 1she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband 2may demand of him, and he shall apay 3as the judges decide.
23 “But if there is any further injury, athen you shall appoint as a penalty life for life,

Yep, if the woman is further injured there is more of a penalty.

 

[Rion]

Yep, if the woman is further injured there is more of a penalty.

...it's talking about the child.

The Misuse of Exodus 21:22-25 by Pro-Choice Advocates | Desiring God

 

[LoAmmi]

...it's talking about the child.

The Misuse of Exodus 21:22-25 by Pro-Choice Advocates | Desiring God

Jewish sources disagree with you. The Hebrew supports it talking about the woman.

 

[LoAmmi]

...it's talking about the child.

The Misuse of Exodus 21:22-25 by Pro-Choice Advocates | Desiring God

Let me prove my claim.

Exodus - Chapter 21 (Parshah Mishpatim)

Rashi was a commentator who would was alive around 1000 CE, so long before pro-choice/pro-life were really a thing. He's quoting the Talmud, which was put together around 700 CE. I'm not "misusing" Exodus, I'm keeping with a tradition that more than likely dates back even before then.

 

[Rion]

Jewish sources disagree with you. The Hebrew supports it talking about the woman.

If you mean the actual Torah and the language used, that's debatable. If you mean the Mishnah, I will be completely honest and say I don't care.

Let me prove my claim.

Exodus - Chapter 21 (Parshah Mishpatim)

Rashi was a commentator who would was alive around 1000 CE, so long before pro-choice/pro-life were really a thing. He's quoting the Talmud, which was put together around 700 CE. I'm not "misusing" Exodus, I'm keeping with a tradition that more than likely dates back even before then.

Yeah, figured that was it. Again, I do not consider that authoritative.

 

[LoAmmi]

If you mean the actual Torah and the language used, that's debatable. If you mean the Mishnah, I will be completely honest and say I don't care.



Yeah, figured that was it. Again, I do not consider that authoritative.

Wouldn't imagine you would. As I said, the Hebrew can support the interpretation I put forth. The fact that men who would have had far greater Hebrew knowledge than you or I (and probably better than the authors of your article) thought it one way lends weight to my thought.

I don't expect Christians to find extra Jewish sources to be authoritative just like I reject arguments that leave the NT as the authoritative source.

 

[Vylo]

You need a "doesn't matter, Bernie should've probably been the candidate" option.



Except that you're wrong.

• An unborn child that is killed is considered murder in OT law.
• In Psalm 139 David wrote: “My frame was not hidden from You, when I was made in secret, and skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth; Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; and in Your book were all written; the days that were ordained for me, when as yet there was not one of them.”
• In Jeremiah, God tells him: “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

Plus other writings. There seems to have been enough that the Didache (1st Century Christian manual) has:

"Do not murder; do not commit adultery"; do not corrupt boys; do not fornicate; "do not steal"; do not practice magic; do not go in for sorcery; do not murder a child by abortion or kill a newborn infant. "Do not covet your neighbor's property; do not commit perjury; do not bear false witness"; do not slander; do not bear grudges. Do not be double-minded or double-tongued, for a double tongue is "a deadly snare." Your words shall not be dishonest or hollow, but substantiated by action. Do not be greedy or extortionate or hypocritical or malicious or arrogant. Do not plot against your neighbor. Do not hate anybody; but reprove some, pray for others, and still others love more than your own life.



Exodus 21:22 “If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that 1she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband 2may demand of him, and he shall apay 3as the judges decide.
23 “But if there is any further injury, athen you shall appoint as a penalty life for life,

That last piece seems to say it is not murder. Paying a fine is generally not the accepted punishment for injury.

A manual isn't scripture, and the other ones do not oppose abortion.

In fact god plays the aborter at times:
Numbers 5:21
"21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell."

And then he commands some others to do it:

Hosea 9:14
"Yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb"

Hosea 13:16
"Samariawill be held guilty, For she has rebelled against her God. They will fall by the sword, Their little oneswill be dashed in pieces, And their pregnantwomen will be ripped open."

Other scripture doesn't even count newborns among the population:
Numbers 3:15-16
4Then the LORD spoke to Moses in the wilderness of Sinai, saying, 15"Number the sons of Levi by their fathers' households, by their families;every male from a month old and upward you shall number."

Leviticus 27:6
"If it be from five years even to twenty years old then your valuation for the male shall be twenty shekels and for the female ten shekels. 6But ifthey are from a month even up to five years old,then your valuation shall be five shekels of silverfor the male, and for the female your valuationshall be three shekels of silver. 7If they are from sixty years old and upward, if it is a male, then your valuation shall be fifteen shekels, and for the female ten shekels."

I have searched before and found no clear condemnation of abortion in the bible.

 

[bhsmte]

Bernie was an election or 2 ahead of his time. Give it another 4-8 years of the top 1% getting the majority of the wealth and someone with his ideas will win.

 

[Rion]

That last piece seems to say it is not murder. Paying a fine is generally not the accepted punishment for injury.

A manual isn't scripture, and the other ones do not oppose abortion.

In fact god plays the aborter at times:
Numbers 5:21
"21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell."

And then he commands some others to do it:

Hosea 9:14
"Yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb"

Hosea 13:16
"Samariawill be held guilty, For she has rebelled against her God. They will fall by the sword, Their little oneswill be dashed in pieces, And their pregnantwomen will be ripped open."

Other scripture doesn't even count newborns among the population:
Numbers 3:15-16
4Then the LORD spoke to Moses in the wilderness of Sinai, saying, 15"Number the sons of Levi by their fathers' households, by their families;every male from a month old and upward you shall number."

Leviticus 27:6
"If it be from five years even to twenty years old then your valuation for the male shall be twenty shekels and for the female ten shekels. 6But ifthey are from a month even up to five years old,then your valuation shall be five shekels of silverfor the male, and for the female your valuationshall be three shekels of silver. 7If they are from sixty years old and upward, if it is a male, then your valuation shall be fifteen shekels, and for the female ten shekels."

I have searched before and found no clear condemnation of abortion in the bible.

It's a fine for causing pre-mature birth. Any other injury to the child is the standard life for life, eye for eye, etc. Read any of the links I provided.

As for the rest, no need to cherry pick. Numbers 5:11-27 is a test for unfaithfulness. They literally took dust from the tabernacle, put it some holy water, along with some ink, and had the woman drink it while calling on the Lord to cause her to miscarry if she was unfaithful. Otherwise, it was to be taken that the child is her husband's. Now, consider how likely that was to make her abort from that. Probably tasted nasty, sure, but it wasn't an abortion technique. It was a curse.

Hosea's always a favorite for how mean God is, but if you ignore the context, that's easy to do. This is the judgement upon Samaria/Israel for their continued abominations, including human sacrifice. It was something God warned them about all the way back in the books of Moses. It isn't even going "Yah! Do this!" It is "This is what is going to happen if you do not turn away." It is the warning given out of mercy, asking the Israelites to turn back to the Lord.

In the section with numbers is for census purposes. Since every first born was redeemed by the other tribes at 1 month old, the Levites were counted from 1 month and older. In the other sections, the tribes are counted from 20 years and older. Does that mean the rest of Israel weren't considered human until they reached 20?

The last is for if someone dedicates themselves or their children in service to the Lord. I.E. how much it costs to back out. Since a child couldn't be redeemed until they were a month old, it starts there. This also doesn't mean that newborns and children in the womb weren't considered human. The family was given a month to get the redemptive payment for the child and arrange for the ceremony.

 

[Vylo]

It's a fine for causing pre-mature birth. Any other injury to the child is the standard life for life, eye for eye, etc. Read any of the links I provided.

As for the rest, no need to cherry pick. Numbers 5:11-27 is a test for unfaithfulness. They literally took dust from the tabernacle, put it some holy water, along with some ink, and had the woman drink it while calling on the Lord to cause her to miscarry if she was unfaithful. Otherwise, it was to be taken that the child is her husband's. Now, consider how likely that was to make her abort from that. Probably tasted nasty, sure, but it wasn't an abortion technique. It was a curse.

Hosea's always a favorite for how mean God is, but if you ignore the context, that's easy to do. This is the judgement upon Samaria/Israel for their continued abominations, including human sacrifice. It was something God warned them about all the way back in the books of Moses. It isn't even going "Yah! Do this!" It is "This is what is going to happen if you do not turn away." It is the warning given out of mercy, asking the Israelites to turn back to the Lord.

In the section with numbers is for census purposes. Since every first born was redeemed by the other tribes at 1 month old, the Levites were counted from 1 month and older. In the other sections, the tribes are counted from 20 years and older. Does that mean the rest of Israel weren't considered human until they reached 20?

The last is for if someone dedicates themselves or their children in service to the Lord. I.E. how much it costs to back out. Since a child couldn't be redeemed until they were a month old, it starts there. This also doesn't mean that newborns and children in the womb weren't considered human. The family was given a month to get the redemptive payment for the child and arrange for the ceremony.

Hosea does show a mean god honestly. To destroy innocent children to get back at people is not what I would call a benevolent being.

 

[Rion]

Hosea does show a mean god honestly. To destroy innocent children to get back at people is not what I would call a benevolent being.

It wasn't about getting back at people. It was about them doing horrible things, often in God's name. God didn't just punish them either. He repeatedly warned them for years. God will forgive the repentant. Mannesah *probably spelled wrong* was just plain wicked. Yet, after he had ignored the Lord's warnings, and killed the prophet Isaiah, he turned to the Lord after being taken captive. God forgave him. The Lord doesn't want to punish people. If he had, He wouldn't have sent Jesus Christ to die for us.