Sanctification

[A Gerbil]

I have been looking for a church for a while, as evidenced by my first thread om this forum. One church that's relatively close to me is a Nazarene Church, and therefore I have been reading about the Wesleyan concept of Sanctification.

An old post on a thread on this forum seems to summarise it thus:

Initial Sanctification occurs at salvation or justification. Entire Sanctification is when one dedicates one's life to God wanting his will and no longer ours. God fills the person with His Spirit, enabling that person to live a life of love and consistency in our Christian walk. We are then made useful for his purposes. The main thing about being useful for his purposes is when we are filled to overflowing with love for God and others. We believe that this ES can occur in one's lifetime.

I wanted to resurrect the old thread, rather than create a new one, however I was unable to. So, I was wondering:

1) Whether people thought that was a legitimate definition of Sanctification?
2) To clarify, is it correct that Initial Sanctification occurs at baptism? If not what is meant by 'salvation' or 'justification'?
3) If one doesn't achieve Entire Sanctification, one still goes to heaven is that correct?

Sorry if this doesn't make sense or appears ignorant. I am ignorant, but seeking. If there's anything one would like to add, or any useful analogies which explains this better I would be very appreciative of your time. Thanks.

 

[Methodized]

I'm not an expert on the Nazarene Church. The definition doesn't exactly fit what Methodists believe about sanctification. So you may need a Nazarene for confirmation of the above.

 

[A Gerbil]

I'm not an expert on the Nazarene Church. The definition doesn't exactly fit what Methodists believe about sanctification. So you may need a Nazarene for confirmation of the above.

Thanks for your reply. How do Methodist beliefs differ?

 

[Methodized]

Thanks for your reply. How do Methodist beliefs differ?

We tend to view sanctification and all of salvation as a process or journey. Methodists are less likely to say, "I have been saved" and instead say, "I am being saved."

We believe that grace is prevenient, justify, and sanctifying. Prevenient Grace is the love of God that is always there for us from our birth. God loves us first and always wants a relationship with us. Justification is when we accept that faith into our lives and sanctification is the life long journey with God whose goal is to be made perfect in love.

It has been said that if salvation were a house prevenient grace would be the front porch, justification would be the door and sanctification would be the entire rest of the house. It is the life work of the Christian to be holy because God is holy.

We can't earn sanctification. Only God can make us sanctified (perfect in live.) But we are to earnestly strive with God's help for that goal.

Here is one of our official statements from the "Confession of Faith" found in our Book of Discipline.

rticle XI — Sanctification and Christian Perfection
We believe sanctification is the work of God's grace through the Word and the Spirit, by which those who have been born again are cleansed from sin in their thoughts, words and acts, and are enabled to live in accordance with God's will, and to strive for holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

Entire sanctification is a state of perfect love, righteousness and true holiness which every regenerate believer may obtain by being delivered from the power of sin, by loving God with all the heart, soul, mind and strength, and by loving one's neighbor as one's self. Through faith in Jesus Christ this gracious gift may be received in this life both gradually and instantaneously, and should be sought earnestly by every child of God.

We believe this experience does not deliver us from the infirmities, ignorance, and mistakes common to man, nor from the possibilities of further sin. The Christian must continue on guard against spiritual pride and seek to gain victory over every temptation to sin. He must respond wholly to the will of God so that sin will lose its power over him; and the world, the flesh, and the devil are put under his feet. Thus he rules over these enemies with watchfulness through the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[A Gerbil]

We tend to view sanctification and all of salvation as a process or journey. Methodists are less likely to say, "I have been saved" and instead say, "I am being saved."

We believe that grace is prevenient, justify, and sanctifying. Prevenient Grace is the love of God that is always there for us from our birth. God loves us first and always wants a relationship with us. Justification is when we accept that faith into our lives and sanctification is the life long journey with God whose goal is to be made perfect in love.

It has been said that if salvation were a house prevenient grace would be the front porch, justification would be the door and sanctification would be the entire rest of the house. It is the life work of the Christian to be holy because God is holy.

We can't earn sanctification. Only God can make us sanctified (perfect in live.) But we are to earnestly strive with God's help for that goal.

Here is one of our official statements from the "Confession of Faith" found in our Book of Discipline.

Thanks for replying. So to summarise

We are born with prevenient (preceding) grace. From Wikipedia:

The United Methodist Book of Discipline (2004) defines prevenient grace as "the divine love that surrounds all humanity and precedes any and all of our conscious impulses. This grace prompts our first wish to please God, our first glimmer of understanding concerning God's will, and our 'first slight transient conviction' of having sinned against God.

So all humanity has this divine love, but in some people it will never prompt action or faith?

Justification - 'when we accept that faith into our lives' - so this would be perhaps be formally acknowledged through baptism?

Sanctification - is living the Christian life, and is an ongoing process?

 

[Methodized]

I'd say we are born receiving grace each day from God. God is actively loving a caring for us even before we are ever able to respond to that love. Rather than something we are born with it is what we are born receiving.

As to justification, for Methodists usually baptism long precedes that experience. Most Methodists are baptized infancy as an act of initiation in to Christ's church, a mark of God's love in that child's life and a sure sign of God's prevenient grace.

Sanctification is living the Christian life seeking to become, with God's grace, the person God created us to be. It is an ongoing process.

 

[Rawtheran]

I have been looking for a church for a while, as evidenced by my first thread om this forum. One church that's relatively close to me is a Nazarene Church, and therefore I have been reading about the Wesleyan concept of Sanctification.

An old post on a thread on this forum seems to summarise it thus:



I wanted to resurrect the old thread, rather than create a new one, however I was unable to. So, I was wondering:

1) Whether people thought that was a legitimate definition of Sanctification?
2) To clarify, is it correct that Initial Sanctification occurs at baptism? If not what is meant by 'salvation' or 'justification'?
3) If one doesn't achieve Entire Sanctification, one still goes to heaven is that correct?

Sorry if this doesn't make sense or appears ignorant. I am ignorant, but seeking. If there's anything one would like to add, or any useful analogies which explains this better I would be very appreciative of your time. Thanks.

I am currently pursuing Ordained Ministry in the Church of the Nazarene so I can answer your questions. I would like to note that our theology is nearly identical to the UMC and we consider ourselves apart of the Wesleyan tradition.

1. The definition of sanctification is that once someone has experienced the New Birth aka accepting Jesus as their Lord and Savior they become indwelt by the Holy Spirit and there is a sudden change in nature which is called initial sanctification. Next as the Christian begins to grow they eventually come to the point in their lives where they realize that though they are saved they might not have surrendered to God's will entirely. This leads to the Christian experiencing what is called Entire Sanctification which means the person has an experience with God where they allow the Holy Spirit to purify their heart and afterwards they allow him to make them perfect not in words, deeds, or actions, but in their motivation and love. So essentially sanctification is both a supernatural experience with God and something that is progressive over someone's lifetime. Now when we talk about Christian Perfection that doesn't mean that someone will become perfect or without sin in this life it just means that the person is allowing the Holy Spirit to transform them to become conformed to the same nature that Christ had when he walked the Earth. Humans in this life are imperfect and will always need God's grace to enable them to live a holy life.

2. All denominations in the Wesleyan tradition believe in redemptive theology with others being more aligned with evangelical ways of thinking. The Church of the Nazarene is evangelical in its teachings. We believe that The Holy Spirit indwells you at the new birth, and salvation or justification means that 1. Someone has come to the realization that they are a sinner in need of God's Grace and there is nothing they can do to earn it or get to Heaven themselves which we would call experiencing God's Prevenient Grace or the Grace that goes before. Next after experiencing this conviction in their hearts they then by their own free will would invite Jesus who died for their sins to come into their lives and pardon them from their sins and become apart of the family of God. The theological term for this would be experiencing God's Justifying Grace.

3. Yes, if a Christian is genuinely saved they will still go to Heaven but I think that someone will find it very very hard to live a life where they are actually obedient to God's will and making good decisions. I think that the majority of Christians move beyond being a baby christian and experience Entire Sanctification even if they don't realize it.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

3. Yes, if a Christian is genuinely saved they will still go to Heaven but I think that someone will find it very very hard to live a life where they are actually obedient to God's will and making good decisions.

? Is there any church you're aware of and/or been to that is doing as written in Ephesians, etc, training the Ekklesia to actually and always be obedient to God's Will and always joyfully and obediently make good decisions ?

 

[Rawtheran]

? Is there any church you're aware of and/or been to that is doing as written in Ephesians, etc, training the Ekklesia to actually and always be obedient to God's Will and always joyfully and obediently make good decisions ?

The two models of training that I've seen for pastors are as follows:
1. Candidates receive a call to ministry and go through a lengthy candidacy process that includes licensing, seminary, ministry field placement/internship, examination by a local church board, examination by a district board of ministry and eventually this all leads to ordination. his is the model most seen in Denominational churches so really the ministry aspects are pretty much learned through on the job training and the other stuff is learned through mentoring and education.

2. Candidate receives a call to ministry and goes before the senior pastor. Candidate is then taken under the wing of the pastor and church elders and mentored for an indefinite period of time in preaching, learning the word of God, Discipleship, and generally leadership training. This is most commonly seen in Non Denominational churches. I think that this approach is nice because a candidate for ministry is given hands on training with a mentor and shadows the Pastor or Pastors until they are ready for preaching in the pulpit. Education from a seminary or Bible College isn't really stressed though which in my opinion is really important because I think most Pastors should learn basic theology otherwise they'll just end up preaching whatever they want from the pulpit or lean more towards their particular churches biases and beliefs.

I don't think any church has a perfect system for training its ministers. Something I'd mention is that no church today will train its pastors the way the Early Church did in Ephesians. The reason the Early Church had the greatest pastors and leaders was because the original 12 were taught by Jesus/God himself who in turn went on to disciple and teach great leaders such as Polycarp. While the way in which the disciples were taught may no longer be in practice I believe that the heart and spirit of Christ's teachings live on in the modern church as they should. The Gospel never changes and will always remain the same from generation to generation. No matter what church you go to there will be excellent Pastors who truly do follow God and there will be those who went into Ordained Ministry for the wrong reasons.

Edit: Something else I'd like to mention is that it's important to remember that while Pastors are in positions of authority they are still human and will make mistakes. They're not always going to get it right when it comes to obeying God just like none of us will always get it right either. Even the disciples had problems with this especially the big names like Peter, James, and Thomas. It's alright though because we serve the greatest Pastor and High Priest of all time named Jesus who is bigger and better than all of our mistakes.

 

[Methodized]

The two models of training that I've seen for pastors are as follows:
1. Candidates receive a call to ministry and go through a lengthy candidacy process that includes licensing, seminary, ministry field placement/internship, examination by a local church board, examination by a district board of ministry and eventually this all leads to ordination. his is the model most seen in Denominational churches so really the ministry aspects are pretty much learned through on the job training and the other stuff is learned through mentoring and education.

In the UMC you usually have opportunities during seminary to work in a church part-time. This was true both of me and my current Associate Pastor when in seminary.

In the UMC after seminary you serve as a Provisional Member of the conference for at least two years before ordination to get full-time experience in the Church before receiving your full credentials.

Also, when possible, working as an Associate Pastor is a great way to get mentoring and training from a more experienced pastor. The problem with doing that in your home church is that each church is different. Odds are you won't be the pastor of your home church. So you need experiences in different churches.

Also, for Methodists, the appointment system makes our ministry deployment work differently than most denominations.

 

[A Gerbil]

I am currently pursuing Ordained Ministry in the Church of the Nazarene so I can answer your questions. I would like to note that our theology is nearly identical to the UMC and we consider ourselves apart of the Wesleyan tradition.

1. The definition of sanctification is that once someone has experienced the New Birth aka accepting Jesus as their Lord and Savior they become indwelt by the Holy Spirit and there is a sudden change in nature which is called initial sanctification. Next as the Christian begins to grow they eventually come to the point in their lives where they realize that though they are saved they might not have surrendered to God's will entirely. This leads to the Christian experiencing what is called Entire Sanctification which means the person has an experience with God where they allow the Holy Spirit to purify their heart and afterwards they allow him to make them perfect not in words, deeds, or actions, but in their motivation and love. So essentially sanctification is both a supernatural experience with God and something that is progressive over someone's lifetime. Now when we talk about Christian Perfection that doesn't mean that someone will become perfect or without sin in this life it just means that the person is allowing the Holy Spirit to transform them to become conformed to the same nature that Christ had when he walked the Earth. Humans in this life are imperfect and will always need God's grace to enable them to live a holy life.

2. All denominations in the Wesleyan tradition believe in redemptive theology with others being more aligned with evangelical ways of thinking. The Church of the Nazarene is evangelical in its teachings. We believe that The Holy Spirit indwells you at the new birth, and salvation or justification means that 1. Someone has come to the realization that they are a sinner in need of God's Grace and there is nothing they can do to earn it or get to Heaven themselves which we would call experiencing God's Prevenient Grace or the Grace that goes before. Next after experiencing this conviction in their hearts they then by their own free will would invite Jesus who died for their sins to come into their lives and pardon them from their sins and become apart of the family of God. The theological term for this would be experiencing God's Justifying Grace.

3. Yes, if a Christian is genuinely saved they will still go to Heaven but I think that someone will find it very very hard to live a life where they are actually obedient to God's will and making good decisions. I think that the majority of Christians move beyond being a baby christian and experience Entire Sanctification even if they don't realize it.

Thank you so much for taking the time to write such a detailed reply, it's very useful. I'm sorry I didn't reply sooner, however I didn't seem to get an alert!

 

[Rawtheran]

In the UMC you usually have opportunities during seminary to work in a church part-time. This was true both of me and my current Associate Pastor when in seminary.

In the UMC after seminary you serve as a Provisional Member of the conference for at least two years before ordination to get full-time experience in the Church before receiving your full credentials.

Also, when possible, working as an Associate Pastor is a great way to get mentoring and training from a more experienced pastor. The problem with doing that in your home church is that each church is different. Odds are you won't be the pastor of your home church. So you need experiences in different churches.

Also, for Methodists, the appointment system makes our ministry deployment work differently than most denominations.

Thanks for the share Methodized! I always learn so much from you and your posts.

 

[Rawtheran]

Thank you so much for taking the time to write such a detailed reply, it's very useful. I'm sorry I didn't reply sooner, however I didn't seem to get an alert!

No problem! I'm glad that you were able to gain several perspectives on this topic. Generally all Christian denominations believe in sanctification and salvation I think we just all have different ideas of how God goes about doing it. The one central truth though that always remains is that A. There has to be a need for salvation and B. The Holy Spirit sanctifies us after we are saved making us more christlike throughout our lifetime until we die and experience C. Glorification where we are restored to the same perfection that Adam and Eve experienced before the fall.

 

[A Gerbil]

No problem! I'm glad that you were able to gain several perspectives on this topic. Generally all Christian denominations believe in sanctification and salvation I think we just all have different ideas of how God goes about doing it. The one central truth though that always remains is that A. There has to be a need for salvation and B. The Holy Spirit sanctifies us after we are saved making us more christlike throughout our lifetime until we die and experience C. Glorification where we are restored to the same perfection that Adam and Eve experienced before the fall.

Thanks again. Good luck with your ordination. Having attended my local Nazarene Church I cannot speak too highly of the pastor there, and I believe the church has genuine Christian ideals, which seems to be rare nowadays.

 

[Rawtheran]

Thanks again. Good luck with your ordination. Having attended my local Nazarene Church I cannot speak too highly of the pastor there, and I believe the church has genuine Christian ideals, which seems to be rare nowadays.

Thank you very much! I'll be getting my local license in the Spring and plan on attending seminary in either the Fall or Summer.

 

[Dave-W]

3) If one doesn't achieve Entire Sanctification, one still goes to heaven is that correct?

It is my understanding that John Wesley himself believed he had not achieved total sanctification toward the end of his life; and I am absolutely sure he was saved and went to heaven.

My dad was ordained (and left the ministry) in the Wesleyan Church (then called Wesleyan Methodist) before i was born in the mid 1950s. We never discussed that particular doctrine but I have discussed it with others of the Free Methodist, Pentecostal Holiness and Nazarene denominations. Uniformly they have said it is complete freedom from committing any sins; but IMO seem to do that by making a watered down definition of sin. They define it as conscious decision to disobey (more properly called transgression) rather than "falling short" which seems to be the proper definitions of both NT and OT words.

Is that correct or am I missing something?

 

[GodsGrace101]

I have been looking for a church for a while, as evidenced by my first thread om this forum. One church that's relatively close to me is a Nazarene Church, and therefore I have been reading about the Wesleyan concept of Sanctification.

An old post on a thread on this forum seems to summarise it thus:



I wanted to resurrect the old thread, rather than create a new one, however I was unable to. So, I was wondering:

1) Whether people thought that was a legitimate definition of Sanctification?
2) To clarify, is it correct that Initial Sanctification occurs at baptism? If not what is meant by 'salvation' or 'justification'?
3) If one doesn't achieve Entire Sanctification, one still goes to heaven is that correct?

Sorry if this doesn't make sense or appears ignorant. I am ignorant, but seeking. If there's anything one would like to add, or any useful analogies which explains this better I would be very appreciative of your time. Thanks.

Hi AG,
I tend to agree with post no. 4....
I attended a Nazarene church for about 10 years but I know that their idea on sanctification has changed somewhat. Wesley believed one could be sanctified in this life...by the end of his life he realized this was not so easy.

The Nazarene church has also changed its doctrine on this....I can tell you that it's a very good church, very pure and uncomplicated and persons that go there tend to be very nice and helpful and not judgmental.

I'll tell you in very easy terms what Justification and Sanctification mean--and this is for Christianity in general.

Justification is when a person decides to become a believer and turns to God for salvation. At this moment a person becomes Justified. This is a legal term and means that God declares you to be free of sin and a child of His. There is no way to earn Justification..it is a gift from God for which we cannot do any work to earn this.
Ephesians 2:8-9

Sanctification is a life-long process by which we live for God and endeavor to do as He would please. As we grow in our Christianity I do believe that we will tend to sin less and obey God more. IOW, we are on a journey, as post no. 4 stated...we will NOT be able to achieve total sanctification in this life because this would mean that we no longer sin and this is impossible. The more we know God...the more we understand sin and are sensitive to it.
2 Thessalonians 2:13

The final step is Glorification, but that comes in the next life.

Some will refer to the above as.
Justification
On-going Justification

OR

Initial Sanctification
On-going Sanctification

and maybe other names, but the concept and doctrine is the same.

Blessings and you should be happy in this church...

 

[GodsGrace101]

It is my understanding that John Wesley himself believed he had not achieved total sanctification toward the end of his life; and I am absolutely sure he was saved and went to heaven.

My dad was ordained (and left the ministry) in the Wesleyan Church (then called Wesleyan Methodist) before i was born in the mid 1950s. We never discussed that particular doctrine but I have discussed it with others of the Free Methodist, Pentecostal Holiness and Nazarene denominations. Uniformly they have said it is complete freedom from committing any sins; but IMO seem to do that by making a watered down definition of sin. They define it as conscious decision to disobey (more properly called transgression) rather than "falling short" which seems to be the proper definitions of both NT and OT words.

Is that correct or am I missing something?

I guess the Nazarene church had to come up with something in order to face the fact that it is IMPOSSIBLE not to sin in the life. I don't say this as some do as an excuse to sin,,,it is just a fact for which we have 1 John 1:9

Sin is sin. If we are not aware of a sin, then it is not a sin.
But whether we "fall short" or deliberately sin...I'd say: What is the difference?
In both cases we are sinning.

We just need to accept that we are BEING sanctified by obeying and working WITH God and we will not be fully sanctified in this life.

Falling short just means missing the mark,,,which is where the word SIN comes from in the original Greek. When we miss the mark, we sin.
If we miss the mark..we are always aiming...What would an unconscious sin be?? Rhetorical question....

If it's unconscious and unknown then it's not a sin.
Everything else is....

 

[LightLoveHope]

Sanctification is a very difficult term, like the term to be like Jesus.
John uses the phrase - "Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did."

John had an advantage over us, he had lived with Jesus so knew exactly how he walked.
I think this is our problem, seeing what the walk is and then following it.
One thing our consciences and perceptions are good at is finding fault and failure rather
than knowing when success has taken place.
We are told constantly by legalists, one failure is the same as failing everything.
That walking in love is like trying to find a way through a maze where one wrong
stumble or jump will kill you.

Jesus had a different view. Each stumble or issue can be worked through and resolved
and it is expected on the walk to have many and each one to be dealt with and growth
and insight gained along the way. God provided the temple with daily sacrifices to deal
with the daily failures and issues. The battle is to believe we can surmount our lostness
and reach the light to a place that resembles life with God and love, and not going from
pillar to post in the hope something makes sense.

Now for the absolutist the answer is this is all junk, let go and let God. God does not care
about any of it, it is all forgiven, just accept your saved and walk on.

The truth is honesty is hard, hurting is hard, sorrow is hard, carrying the cross and service
is hard. But through these things we gain perseverance, patience, faithfulness, strength,
the ability to tell good from evil. Our emotions will always try and take the easy path,
the least cost and the biggest reward, but unfortunately this will end in failure.

Add on top of this the enemy, who will send people to discourage, mock, rebuke, try and
turn God people into sin and compromise, as a people we have to listen to Jesus and walk
the straight narrow path of eternal life. Amen

 

[Dave-W]

If we miss the mark..we are always aiming...What would an unconscious sin be?? Rhetorical question....

If it's unconscious and unknown then it's not a sin.
Everything else is....

Not hitting a target we did not know we were supposed to be aiming at.