Sanctification by Works

[Dr.Strangelove]

No, I have already said that Sanctification is synergistic.. God Justifies by infusing us with grace then God and Man works together to work out the sanctification... If you would like, Progressive Sanctification...

By nature is the laws of moses... period... There is no law apart from God's law...

Michael

You said that exercising the righteousness of Christ is observing torah law, and doing such enables sanctification to the believer.

Your church says that sanctification enables the believer to exercise the righteousness of Christ.

So which is it?

Torah observance >> Sanctification

Or

Sanctification >> torah observance

Where does the synergistic thingee come from?

It's one or the other.

 

[MikhaelDavid]

This is what I mean when I said you have not read what I have said... I have mentioned synergistic many times...

synergistic means BOTH..

And that is my view.. BOTH GOD and MAN together...

It is NOT a one or the other but Both...

Michael

You said that exercising the righteousness of Christ is observing torah law, and doing such enables sanctification to the believer.

Your church says that sanctification enables the believer to exercise the righteousness of Christ.

So which is it?

Torah observance >> Sanctification

Or

Sanctification >> torah observance

Where does the synergistic thingee come from?

It's one or the other.

 

[Desert Rose]

Desert Rose,
On the issue of Theo-Nomy (God's Law) vs. Secular Democracy I would suggest another book after Ryle Holiness Book.. Ryle speaks of personal sanctification as this other book will go into National Sanctification and the Third Use of God law..
The book is titled "By This Standard" by Greg Bahnsen
But to clarify governmental positions..
Theocracy is a misnomer because it entails God's Rule in Person (Which is not possible until Christ returns)
Ecclesiocracy would be a rule by the Ecclesia, the Church over the State with Church Ministers lifting up the sword.. (Example would be Rome during the Middle Ages)
Theonomy is the rule by God's Laws through Civil Ministers (Magistrates) and those laws are found in the Judicial Case Laws in the Torah. Separation of sphere authority is maintained. Priest do not lift up the sword and Magistrates do not have authority over the church nor preach. But both spheres are held in check by God's law. National Israel in the Old Testament was not a Theocracy but a Theonomic State. Example of sphere authority would be like God' punishing King Uzziah for doing the Priests job even if it was by mistake. There are many more examples..
Secular Democracy is Autonomy from God which is a view that national governments are free from the laws of God and have no accountability to God which "normatively" leads to Salvation by the State view such as Rome and Greece did after being a Secular Democracy in ancient times. It also says that God is not over the nations and that those nations free themselves from God.
One more type of government I will mention is,
Erastianism which is the opposite of Ecclesiocracy.. In this view the state has authority over the church.. Example of this would be the "King of England", Defender of the Faith and head of the Church. So the Church of England has been historically under Erastianism.

I believe that Theonomy is the one scripture teaches and is the more balanced view..

Michael

Appreciate the classifications Michael, very interesting.

Discussing theonomy and such would be derailing the thread,I will just mention how blessed USA is to have secular democracy and freedom of religion.No system is perfect but i can imagine what horror of horrors it would be if God forbid it was theonomy and "both spheres were held in check by Gods law"

Translated from pious-speak baloney into regular English - it would be sheer Hell! We've seen thru history how bunch of religious idiots misinterpret what God's law is and how horrific the consequences are for the common folk.

Long Live Secular Representative Democracy!

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

This is what I mean when I said you have not read what I have said... I have mentioned synergistic many times...

synergistic means BOTH..

And that is my view.. BOTH GOD and MAN together...

It is NOT a one or the other but Both...

Michael

It may be your view that your works make you more Holy. It may be the view of certain theology writers. It may be the view of your particular church (although from what you posted it doesn't look that way)............................



........but critically, scripture doesn't view it that way.

Does anyone else on these forums believe that observance of torah law adds to the sanctification that God gifts to us by His divine Grace through faith in the Messiah?

Or is it just Michael?

2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that
circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of
the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of
men, but of God.​

G'night peeps.

 

[ContraMundum]

No, I have already said that Sanctification is synergistic.. God Justifies by infusing us with grace then God and Man works together to work out the sanctification... If you would like, Progressive Sanctification...

By nature is the laws of moses... period... There is no law apart from God's law...

Michael

I understand Reformed/Protestant thought to reject the idea of God justifying by infused grace. The doctrine is that at justification the sinner receives imputed righteousness. Grace is never infused, but is received by faith, transforming the sinner. Infused grace is RC doctrine.

Even if you hold a synergistic view of sanctification, grace is not infused by our actions, but rather grace transforms us by faith. Our actions merely live out our grace and demonstrate a true and authentic faith, and some actions (eg prayer, spiritual discipline) strengthen our faith to receive grace, but our actions never deserve God's grace or merit it.

 

[MikhaelDavid]

Contra,

Your right in a sense.. By itself infused grace can just mean "imputed righteousness" and that was the sense I was using it in though I should have used imputed righteousness in my wording.. The problem comes in when Romanism uses the "infused grace" to mean; Grace dispensed through the sacraments, which actually enables believers to become more righteous.

I was not thinking in terms of Romanism but should have seen that and been more careful.

I also was not saying that grace is infused by our actions but that grace was infused at justification, alone, and from that we play a role in our sanctification through "run the way to His commandments", "If you love me, obeying His commandments", "pursuing the sanctification", "Be Holy for I am Holy", etc.

In Reformed Theology we also say that Worship and Worship elements are a "means of grace".

I agree with the rest of what you said.

So sorry for the confusion.. But in my term I meant "imputed righteousness"..

Michael

I understand Reformed/Protestant thought to reject the idea of God justifying by infused grace. The doctrine is that at justification the sinner receives imputed righteousness. Grace is never infused, but is received by faith, transforming the sinner. Infused grace is RC doctrine.

Even if you hold a synergistic view of sanctification, grace is not infused by our actions, but rather grace transforms us by faith. Our actions merely live out our grace and demonstrate a true and authentic faith, and some actions (eg prayer, spiritual discipline) strengthen our faith to receive grace, but our actions never deserve God's grace or merit it.

 

[ContraMundum]

Contra,

Your right in a sense.. By itself infused grace can just mean "imputed righteousness" and that was the sense I was using it in though I should have used imputed righteousness in my wording.. The problem comes in when Romanism uses the "infused grace" to mean; Grace dispensed through the sacraments, which actually enables believers to become more righteous.

I was not thinking in terms of Romanism but should have seen that and been more careful.

I also was not saying that grace is infused by our actions but that grace was infused at justification, alone, and from that we play a role in our sanctification through "run the way to His commandments", "If you love me, obeying His commandments", "pursuing the sanctification", "Be Holy for I am Holy", etc.

In Reformed Theology we also say that Worship and Worship elements are a "means of grace".

I agree with the rest of what you said.

So sorry for the confusion.. But in my term I meant "imputed righteousness"..

Michael

Thanks Michael- I thought that such was the case. It's easy to mix up words and phrases sometimes when posting here.

 

[Ivy]

"In other words, real Christianity is too hard to accept for some people. It requires the humility to say "I can't do it" and the Olivet commandments of Jesus are too tough to follow for someone who would rather they be cleansed of their sins by following the Law of Moses."

Just catching up on my reading today.

Above statement is rock-n-roll, Contra.

Ducking back out. Please continue.

 

[Lulav]

It may be your view that your works make you more Holy. It may be the view of certain theology writers. It may be the view of your particular church (although from what you posted it doesn't look that way)............................



........but critically, scripture doesn't view it that way.

Does anyone else on these forums believe that observance of torah law adds to the sanctification that God gifts to us by His divine Grace through faith in the Messiah?

Or is it just Michael?

2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that
circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of
the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of
men, but of God.​

G'night peeps.

Only someone who is not a Jew would say something like that.

 

[Desert Rose]

G'night peeps.

Only someone who is not a Jew would say something like that.

Thats what i thought too, Lulav, you right! What Jew with self respect goes to bed when there is a perfect opportunity to stay up and keep arguing!
Granda and papa, may their sweet souls enjoy heaven, usually'd have hoarse voices by morning. Thats what i call real hebrews and shebrews, not some softies- good fight is just brewing, and he pulls his pajamas on.

 

[MikhaelDavid]

Desert Rose,

I am not a physically a Hebrew and I have that problem.. hehe...

My wife has forbidden "Concubines" (Theological Treatises) in the bedroom at night now ever since we stayed up til 4 in the morning discussing and debating a theological point that we disagree with each other on.. LoL


Michael

Granda and papa, may their sweet souls enjoy heaven, usually'd have hoarse voices by morning. Thats what i call real hebrews and shebrews, not some softies- good fight is just brewing, and he pulls his pajamas on.

 

[Desert Rose]

Desert Rose,
I am not a physically a Hebrew and I have that problem.. hehe...
My wife has forbidden "Concubines" (Theological Treatises) in the bedroom at night now ever since we stayed up til 4 in the morning discussing and debating a theological point that we disagree with each other on.. LoL
Michael

discussing those theo "concubines", i am sure,was a mutually enriching, brainy debate, my grands used to fight over petty , unworthy stuff.

but i like my sleep, so if I land a husband who' s a fan of nightly theological discussions - I go to bed, point him to the forums, and ask for quick summary of topics in the morning

 

[child of Jesus]

How was Yeshua crucified among the Galatians?

that phrase is like "placard Christ crucified"...like a giant billboard...a placard.

Paul meant, by their preaching, they could virtually SEE the Crucified Christ. they had been THOROUGHLY taught....Paul was disgusted by their so easily falling from Grace and heading to bondage.