Salvation

[BAChristian]

Shelb5 and I have been contributing to a thread in Open Theology about OSAS. I won't go into detail right now, nor debate OSAS. I doubt anyone (except God) will ever be able to change my view regarding OSAS.

But we do always talk about salvation around here, and thereselittleflower has a nice signature detailing her view on being "saved"...

I guess, personally, I have always believed that if you don't know if you're going to heaven or not, then you're not going to make it. If you have doubts, then you're not going to make it. Because if you were right with the Lord, you wouldn't have doubts...you'd know that if you died right now, you were going to make it.

For example, I know, that if I were to walk out in the street right now, and got hit by a car, that I'd go to heaven. Now, if I sit here and go, "Hmmm, I don't know if I'll make it or not", then what that does tell you? That tells me that maybe there's something in my life I'd better get right with the Lord, otherwise, I'd know for sure...

Thoughts?

 

[Christy4Christ]

Great topic! I am going to sit back with popcorn and watch in unfold for awhile.

 

[Rosa Mystica]

I guess, personally, I have always believed that if you don't know if you're going to heaven or not, then you're not going to make it. If you have doubts, then you're not going to make it. Because if you were right with the Lord, you wouldn't have doubts...you'd know that if you died right now, you were going to make it.

I disagree. No one knows for sure where they're going, BA. We may have strong suspicions about where we're going, but only God has definite knowledge. There are various reasons for having doubt about one's salvation. For instance, if one's doubts are due to scruples of some kind (like in my case), then they might be afraid of not being saved. Is such a person "not right w/ the Lord"? Not necessarily, b/c their doubts are due to an illness.

We can't make presumptions about our salvation, BA. We can only trust that God will judge us as He sees fit.

 

[BAChristian]

No one knows for sure where they're going, BA. We may have strong suspicions about where we're going, but only God has definite knowledge.

Ok, I'm 99.99999999999999999999% sure...there.

For instance, if one's doubts are due to scruples of some kind (like in my case), then they might be afraid of not being saved. Is such a person "not right w/ the Lord"? Not necessarily, b/c their doubts are due to an illness.

I don't consider scruples an illness. Scruples are caused by the evil powers in this world. Your carnal side is weak. Hence, this weakness can be used against you...only through Christ and through prayer, and a strong mindset, can you get rid of scruples...

We can't make presumptions about our salvation, BA. We can only trust that God will judge us as He sees fit.

I can't go through life wondering. Why do you think so many Catholics just give up and move over to a denomination that teaches OSAS?

You know if you're going to make it or not. How can you not? The Holy Spirit should let you know whether or not you're going to make it.

That's what putting on the armor of God is all about. I'm walking around with the armor of Christ...as long as I stay faithful and stay out of mortal sin, I know where I'm going!

 

[Christy4Christ]

I have issues that I pray for forgivness for constantly and to be honest because of the nature of the offense, sometimes I am not sure. This in itself seems like a sin because then you are doubting the reason Jesus died for us, I guess. It's very hard for me. I do pray for mercy and I believe that God loves me.

If one has committed murder at some point in thier life, I'm afraid it is not so easy for them to be sure.

 

[ukok]

BA, my mind is wired differently...i don't think that there can ever be a guarantee, and i think it's too easy for a person to 'rest assured' that they're going to make it and believe that this offers free license to err slightly or even significantly.

Personally, i feel so unworthy of a place in heaven, i dare not presume myself there in the event of my death.

 

[BAChristian]

...and believe that this offers free license to err slightly or even significantly.

I couldn't agree more.

It's really all about discernment...

So, ukok, you don't know if you're going to make it to heaven? Seriously?

I just don't see how a person can not know whether or not they're going to make it. Don't you feel that tug in your heart from the Spirit? Don't you feel that peaceful feeling? I mean, it just seems odd to me that people can sit here and go, "I can only hope to make it...ho hum..."

I don't mean to sound holier than thou folks, but I need it explained to me I guess...I don't get it. I figured that this was something that all Christians felt -- all Christians know they're going to make it provided they are living for God...otherwise, how depressing it must be for a lot people!!

 

[ukok]

BA...discernment...that's a popular word about these part's lately!

Interesting thread BA.

 

[nyj]

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[BAChristian]

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[nyj]

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[BAChristian]

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[boughtwithaprice]

OSAS is a sin of presumption, and as such, is a sin against hope (Summa Theologica).

I couldn't agree more, Tom. I used to be a Calvinist, and I can tell you that the line of thinking leads to two extremes

1) excessively judgemental attitude that exudes pride and eliteism

or

2) extreme lack of judgement, where everyone is considered saved, and the commandments are degenerated to the suggestions.


I grew tired of all the wondering, and I definitely feel more at peace in the Catholic church. We discard the sin of presumption, and get busy doing the will of the Father. Things like in Matthew 25........feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick, comfort the afflicted, etc..

There are more important things to do than to go about all day worrying whether or not we and others are "saved". Jesus said, if you love me, you will keep my commandments.

 

[nyj]

You indirectly implied it...

Yes, of course.

 

[Miss Shelby]

My thoughts.. we are redeemed by His Blood and His Resurrection gives us the hope of etneral life.

Michelle

 

[InnerPhyre]

I don't know if I'm going to heaven because it's not for me to decide. That doesn't mean I'm in a major state of sin or hellbound. I just prefer to leave it up to God, and trust in His loving mercy with great hope.

 

[ukok]

BA, did you edit your post because i didn't see any of these questions here when i responded originally?

So, ukok, you don't know if you're going to make it to heaven? Seriously?

Seriously, i don't see how anyone can presume that they have a place with God in Heaven, at any given moment we can react in entirely uncharacteristic way....for example, if someone i love dearly is taken from me at the hand's of someone else, do i know that i would not take revenge?

I just don't see how a person can not know whether or not they're going to make it. Don't you feel that tug in your heart from the Spirit? Don't you feel that peaceful feeling? I mean, it just seems odd to me that people can sit here and go, "I can only hope to make it...ho hum..."

You know, the lovely priest at my parish say's this...we should be 'quietly optimistic'...when we live our lives in accordance to the teachings of SS and the Church, are prayerful and live fruitful lives of loving others more than ourselves.

I don't mean to sound holier than thou folks, but I need it explained to me I guess...I don't get it. I figured that this was something that all Christians felt -- all Christians know they're going to make it provided they are living for God...otherwise, how depressing it must be for a lot people!!

I was bought up on the idea that when people died they went to heaven...i didn't know where heaven was, or what the entry requirements were, i just presumed that my mum had it all sussed and so i lulled along until i was about 11 and my grandma died...i was devastated...and i needed more answers than "everyone goes to heaven darling"...even at that young age i couldn't get my head around evil people getting into heaven and having a place right next to my granny!

Basically what i'm trying to say is that based on the theory of self assurance, then i would have to profer that even those who commit the heinous of crimes and who remain unrepentant may believe themselves to be going to Heaven. In other words, we can think what we like but only God knows...if it placates us to think so, then that is a personal choice, but in MHO it is also a thought that i fear could cause considerable consequence.

 

[BAChristian]

Seriously, i don't see how anyone can presume that they have a place with God in Heaven, at any given moment we can react in entirely uncharacteristic way....for example, if someone i love dearly is taken from me at the hand's of someone else, do i know that i would not take revenge?

If you take revenge, and you know that you shouldn't, then you've sinned. A strong Christian will not sin in that instance. He won't take revenge. That's all part of good moral thinking.

That has nothing to do with knowing whether or not right now you're going to make it to heaven...

You know, the lovely priest at my parish say's this...we should be 'quietly optimistic'...when we live our lives in accordance to the teachings of SS and the Church, are prayerful and live fruitful lives of loving others more than ourselves.

Trust me, I do not have a "loving myself more than others" attitude. You've misunderstood me. Knowing whether or not you're going to make it to heaven or not has nothing to do with pridefulness, or arrogance or anything like that.

The Bible tells us that if keep the commandments, and do what Jesus wants us to do, we will inherit the kingdom of God. So, if you haven't committed any mortal sins since your last confession, then if I were you, I'd be confident in knowing that you were going to go to heaven, because the Bible says so...

Basically what i'm trying to say is that based on the theory of self assurance, then i would have to profer that even those who commit the heinous of crimes and who remain unrepentant may believe themselves to be going to Heaven. In other words, we can think what we like but only God knows...if it placates us to think so, then that is a personal choice, but in MHO it is also a thought that i fear could cause considerable consequence.

I'm not saying that. It's as though you think that Christians mortally sin every day. If a person is mortally sinning every day, then it's my opinion they're not a very strong Christian.

A strong Christian would find it hard to mortally sin.

 

[Aaron-Aggie]

What I know :
I am not worthly of the Lord no matter what I do, it is by his grace alone that saves me.
I fear not the past but the future for many men greater then I have fallen and rejected the grace of the Lord.
I will not insult my Lord by assuming or axpecting anything for he owes me nothing.
Each moment that he gives me, each bit of grace, each gift is beyound what I can repay.

I hope and pray that every day I grow closer to.
I know that my Lord is kind and mercful which gives me hope eternal.
I put my life and the rest that is me into his hands

 

[Miss Shelby]

I fear not the past but the future for many men greater then I have fallen and rejected the grace of the Lord.

Amen, Aaron. Amen.

Michelle