Salvation

[Constantine the Sinner]

No, he questioned the canonicity of James because some of the early Church fathers did.

Protestants have dealt with that verse. Of course we do not believe a dead faith saves

Faith without works is dead only in the eyes of people. But not unto salvation.

 

[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

Jesus saves.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

Being crushed is not a good thing, not if it destroys your sanity or comes at the expense of your mental health.

There is a place in the Christian life for joy, and not taking things too seriously. There's a time for everything.

"For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death."

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

Jesus saves.

Only if you accept him, and that means heeding his commandments.

 

[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

Only if you accept him, and that means heeding his commandments.

Accepting by faith only without any works:

John 3:16-18

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

Accepting by faith only without any works:

John 3:16-18

"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"

 

[FireDragon76]

Only if you accept him, and that means heeding his commandments.

What justification by faith implies can vary depending on the Protestant denomination. There may be some that believe assent or intellectual agreement is sufficient, but that isn't what Lutherans mean by "faith alone".

 

[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"

Dear brother, I understood you very well. I respect your tradition enormously. There are wonderful believers in Orthodoxy who can be best examples of faith and dedication to Jesus. Peace to you and all blessings of the Lord!

 

[Hawkins]

So uhhhhhh, half of people who call themselves "Christian" aren't saved?

That remains your judgment. Whether they can pass the mark is up to Jesus on the Judgment Day.

 

[rturner76]

So uhhhhhh, half of people who call themselves "Christian" aren't saved?

No my friend here's the gospel (gospel= good news!) Jesus has already paid the ultimate price for your sins which was his sinless life. Rejoice! Count your blessings for Christ has Come! Christ said follow his commandments and having faith in him allows you to do that. You should also study and carry Christ's message first because it is commanded, second, because it will improve your life and the make a difference in the world. Next you should because you may be laying up riches for yourself in heaven by being one of the "elect" (I'm not sure about that one but I hope so) How do I know? Let's see what the oldwst Church on Earth says~

The Catechism of the Catholic Church:
842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:

All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city.

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

 

[ViaCrucis]

Only if you accept him, and that means heeding his commandments.

This places the onus on us rather than on the Christ who saves; it also makes salvation conditional on us getting certain things right, rather than it being up to the God who, in His infinite and kind mercy, condescends to meet a broken, sinful world in the person of Jesus Christ our Lord, redeeming and healing that world by His own volition and kindness.

Obedience to Christ should come not as a condition for God's mercy, but because God is merciful; and that being a Christian should mean going out into the world, in Christ's name, in the same mercy which has been shown us. That our neighbor might find compassion, kindness, and love; that they receive bread when they are hungry, water when they are thirsty, comfort when they mourn, clothes when they are naked, and to be welcomed when no one else would receive them. God doesn't need our good works, but our neighbor does. And if we call ourselves by the Name that is above all other names, then it should be our delight to serve and love as a Christian ought, not for reward, but because Christ our God and King has commanded it be done, because He cares for the broken, the hurting, the wounded, and the lost.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[user385]

Everyone should read the book of Romans the way God intended for the book to be read. God has made it very clear in that book that salvation is by grace and not by works of the law.

 

[DingDing]

Everyone should read the book of Romans the way God intended for the book to be read. God has made it very clear in that book that salvation is by grace and not by works of the law.

That sounds all nice and "churchy", but what do the words in the Book of Romans actually mean? I would expect that most here would agree with your words, but their meaning and your meaning can be quite different. So, and not to be hard on you except to make a point; you have added nothing to the discussion.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

This places the onus on us rather than on the Christ who saves; it also makes salvation conditional on us getting certain things right, rather than it being up to the God who, in His infinite and kind mercy, condescends to meet a broken, sinful world in the person of Jesus Christ our Lord, redeeming and healing that world by His own volition and kindness.

Obedience to Christ should come not as a condition for God's mercy, but because God is merciful; and that being a Christian should mean going out into the world, in Christ's name, in the same mercy which has been shown us. That our neighbor might find compassion, kindness, and love; that they receive bread when they are hungry, water when they are thirsty, comfort when they mourn, clothes when they are naked, and to be welcomed when no one else would receive them. God doesn't need our good works, but our neighbor does. And if we call ourselves by the Name that is above all other names, then it should be our delight to serve and love as a Christian ought, not for reward, but because Christ our God and King has commanded it be done, because He cares for the broken, the hurting, the wounded, and the lost.

-CryptoLutheran

It doesn't place the onus on us any more than having faith does. Good works are the product of grace, but you have to have an open heart for them to happen.

 

[ViaCrucis]

It doesn't place the onus on us any more than having faith does. Good works are the product of grace, but you have to have an open heart for them to happen.

I agree actually with your first proposition, if faith was something that we did, an act of man; but faith is a gift from God, something God does in and for us; no one chooses faith, faith comes (as the Apostle says) "by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ"; which is why Lutheran confess in the Large Catechism:

"For neither you nor I could ever know anything of Christ, or believe on Him, and obtain Him for our Lord, unless it were offered to us and granted to our hearts by the Holy Ghost through the preaching of the Gospel. The work is done and accomplished; for Christ has acquired and gained the treasure for us by His suffering, death, resurrection, etc. But if the work remained concealed so that no one knew of it, then it would be in vain and lost. That this treasure, therefore, might not lie buried, but be appropriated and enjoyed, God has caused the Word to go forth and be proclaimed, in which He gives the Holy Ghost to bring this treasure home and appropriate it to us. Therefore sanctifying is nothing else than bringing us to Christ to receive this good, to which we could not attain of ourselves."

It is through the Means of Word and Sacrament that the Holy Spirit operates to grant us faith, apart from ourselves, by the grace of God; Christ has instituted Means, this is why He has commissioned His Church to preach His word, to baptize, and to celebrate the consecrated Supper of His very own flesh and blood.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

I agree actually with your first proposition, if faith was something that we did, an act of man; but faith is a gift from God, something God does in and for us; no one chooses faith, faith comes (as the Apostle says) "by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ"; which is why Lutheran confess in the Large Catechism:

"For neither you nor I could ever know anything of Christ, or believe on Him, and obtain Him for our Lord, unless it were offered to us and granted to our hearts by the Holy Ghost through the preaching of the Gospel. The work is done and accomplished; for Christ has acquired and gained the treasure for us by His suffering, death, resurrection, etc. But if the work remained concealed so that no one knew of it, then it would be in vain and lost. That this treasure, therefore, might not lie buried, but be appropriated and enjoyed, God has caused the Word to go forth and be proclaimed, in which He gives the Holy Ghost to bring this treasure home and appropriate it to us. Therefore sanctifying is nothing else than bringing us to Christ to receive this good, to which we could not attain of ourselves."

It is through the Means of Word and Sacrament that the Holy Spirit operates to grant us faith, apart from ourselves, by the grace of God; Christ has instituted Means, this is why He has commissioned His Church to preach His word, to baptize, and to celebrate the consecrated Supper of His very own flesh and blood.

-CryptoLutheran

You can be given the gift, but reject it (as Judas did). Faith is about synergy: the Holy Spirit gives you everything, but if you resist God's will (for he wills all to be saved according to 1 Timothy 2:4), then that's that. As the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't force him to drink. The water is faith and works (and only works of faith are meaningful, works which you credit to God); you do not furnish the water, you just accept it, but rejecting the water of works on the grounds of, "I don't need to drink this water because God furnishes, I do nothing," is a perversion. God gives you plenty of opportunity and means to do works, if you willfully are defiant of him here on the grounds that God does everything, you are rebelling against God. Faith without works is dead, it is tepid. Faith and works without contrition is also dead.

 

[rturner76]

You can be given the gift, but reject it (as Judas did). Faith is about synergy: the Holy Spirit gives you everything, but if you resist God's will (for he wills all to be saved according to 1 Timothy 2:4), then that's that.

"The Holy Spirit gives you everything" also "for he wills all to be saved." I agree and I know that God has the ability to accomplish his will. So he does and I am grateful.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

"The Holy Spirit gives you everything" also "for he wills all to be saved." I agree and I know that God has the ability to accomplish his will. So he does and I am grateful.

That's good, just don't use it as a pretense for saying you don't have to follow God's word.

 

[rturner76]

That's good, just don't use it as a pretense for saying you don't have to follow God's word.

I can do nothing, Christ's work is already finished, and it is sufficient.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

I can do nothing, Christ's work is already finished, and it is sufficient.

It's sufficient to transform you, yes, so you don't have any excuse to deviate from his body.