Salvation

NRutman · May 31, 2002

Vow,

I have no clue what all of those abbreviations mean, but I hate to bring you news that you do a great disservice to Scripture by even supposing that a contradiction exists. I desire to ignore no Scripture, nor do I think it contradicts itself - for God cannot contradict Himself or His kingdom would fall. I have been explaining what I do (and I think what God does) with Scriptures that reference anyone "falling away".

Sorry if that sounded harsh, but I think you should reconsider what you just said. There is truth to be found, and it doesn't depend on what anyone believes, but only what God does in fact.

May we all mature in faith,
Nate

NRutman · May 31, 2002

Originally posted by VOW
To NR:

Repentance isn't a work. It is merely ACKNOWLEDGING that you have hurt God, and you are sorry for that pain you have caused Him. You ask Him to show you how to live, so that you don't cause him that pain again, because you DEEPLY DESIRE that loving relationship with Him.

Look up "repent" in your dictionary...mine says:
"To feel such regret for past conduct as to change one's mind regarding it"
Isn't this what I did?

Nate

isshinwhat · May 31, 2002

If you think Christianity is all about being good in the sight of God, you are horribly mistaken. Christianity is all about glorifying God for what He has done through Christ!

What Christ did on the cross was to make us good in the sight of God. Through Christ we can become adopted sons of the Father. Through Christ, our deeds which once were worthless now have merit.

Romans 12:1
Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, [/u]holy and pleasing to God.[/u]

Rom 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

It isn't just about covering sinners up, it's about making them new

Neal

VOW · May 31, 2002

To NR:

OSAS=Once Saved, Always Saved
OSNAS=Once Saved, Not Always Saved

This argument has taken place on these boards in this forum many, many times. And it always degenerates to the two sides throwing Scriptures at each other. OSNAS shows Scripture saying that Salvation is a journey, that we must persevere to the end, that no guarantees are given. Paul makes references to this numerous times in his Epistle. And I've seen the OSAS school of thought bounce right back, with their Scriptures, saying "NO, you are WRONG."

The fact is, THERE IS CONTRADICTION.

For instance, Paul, to the Church in Galatia:
Galatians 5: 19-21

19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions, 21 occasions of envy, drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul is talking to the CHURCH, to those who are "saved." Yet he's telling them, "You do these things, you will LOSE the kingdom of God." To lose something, you must HAVE it first!

Galatians 5: 25

If we live in the Spirit, let us also follow the Spirit.

WHY would Paul even bother telling this to people who are "saved"? He's giving them DIRECTIONS on how to live a Christian life. Why bother with that? Well, he's telling them what to do, what NOT to do, so they don't lose their inheritance!

Peace be with you,
~VOW

NRutman · May 31, 2002

Originally posted by isshinwhat

What Christ did on the cross was to make us good in the sight of God. Through Christ we can become adopted sons of the Father. Through Christ, our deeds which once were worthless now have merit.

Good call! Sorry for the confusion. I meant that being a Christian is not trying to just live a good life by yourself. Thank you for the correction!

Originally posted by isshinwhat

It isn't just about covering sinners up, it's about making them new

Once again, right on!

Thank you,
Nate

NRutman · May 31, 2002

Vow,

You are correct that Paul is writing to the churches in Galatia, however is everyone that goes to your church saved? I know there are unsaved people at mine. Going with the same train of thought, Paul does not say anyone will lose anything. He simply lists actions of certain people, and then states that those people will not inherit the kingdom of God.

However, this does not mean that Christians cease to sin. Christ's sacrifice makes us holy in the sight of God (so we are no longer sinners to Him).

Just a few thoughts,
Nate

NRutman · May 31, 2002

I apologize, but this thread is getting to the point where I am being asked the same questions that I already answered, and the result is not helpful to those I intended to help. I believe it is at this time that I should humbly bow out of the conversation. I invite anyone who desires to learn more about the good doctrines of sin, grace, and the meaning of the Cross to send me a private message, and I will get back to you as soon and as best as I can (although, being human I reserve the right to reply "I don't know").

My prayer is that the peace and joy of God the Father will be with you as you learn more about our wondrous Savior, and His excellent Cross.

In Him,
Nate

Messenger · May 31, 2002

Originally posted by s0uljah
So you can murder, cheat, steal, rape, and still go to heaven, because once upon a time you believed in Jesus?

No

Jeremiah 7:8
"Behold,you trust in deceptive words to no avail. Will you steal, murder, commit adultery, swear falsely, burn incense to Ba'al, and go after other gods that you have not known, and then come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, 'We are delivered!"--only to go on doing all these abominations? Has this house which is called by my name, become a den of robers in your eyes? Behold, I myself have seen it, says the Lord. Go now to my place that was in Shiloh, where I made my name dwell at first and seat I did to it for the wickedness of my people Isreal. And now because you have done all these things, say the Lord, and when I spoke to you persistently you did not listen, and when I called you, you did not answer, therefore I will do to the house which is called by my name, and in which you trust, and to the place which I gave to you and to your fathers, as I did to Shiloh. And I will cast you out of my sight, as I cast all your kinsmen, all the offspring of E'phriaim. "As for you, do not pray for this people, or lift up cry or prayer for the,, and do not intercede with me, for I do not hear you. Do you not see what they are doing in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? The children gather wood, the fathers kindle fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven: and they pour drink offerings to other gods, to provoke me to anger. Is it I whom they provoke? Says the Lord Is it not themselves, to their own confusion? Therefore thus says the Lord God: Behold, my anger and my wrath will be poured out on this place, upon mand and beast, upon the trees of the field and the fruit of the ground: it will burn and not be quenched."

VOW · May 31, 2002

Originally posted by NRutman
You are correct that Paul is writing to the churches in Galatia, however is everyone that goes to your church saved? I know there are unsaved people at mine. Going with the same train of thought, Paul does not say anyone will lose anything. He simply lists actions of certain people, and then states that those people will not inherit the kingdom of God.

To NR:

I am maintaining that "those certain people" are indeed the ones who are saved, for this reason. If they were NOT saved, then no matter what they did, be it a sin listed by Paul, or be it a righteous act, they would not obtain the kingdom of God.

Yes, Paul lists those actions that will cause someone to LOSE the kingdom of God. The saved are the only people who would be in jeopardy of not obtaining something they already had, or what they THOUGHT they had.

Think of it this way. If Paul was talking to the general population of sinners, and said, "Do not do these works of the flesh, or you will not obtain the kingdom of God," what difference would it make WHAT those people did? If they had not acknowledged Jesus as the Christ, who died for their salvation, then who cares if they keep doing those sinful works of the flesh?

Abstaining from licenciousness, greed, acts of envy, any of those sins will not gain you salvation. Paul's words are empty to those who are not saved.

Peace be with you,
~VOW

Messenger · May 31, 2002

You must live your life pleasing to God in order to truely have salvation The Letter of Jude

We are to hold strong to our salvation and not sway. It is a great mistake to grab the gift and no longer fear the lose of salvation if this leads you to willingly sin.

isshinwhat · May 31, 2002

Abstaining from licenciousness, greed, acts of envy, any of those sins will not gain you salvation. Paul's words are empty to those who are not saved.

Thanks, Vow!

Neal

Messenger · May 31, 2002

Romans 11:17 But if some of the branches were borken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in their place to share the richness of the olive tree, do not boast over the branches. if you do boastremember it is not you that support the root, but the root that supports you You will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud; but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spore you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness: otherwise you too will be cut off. And even the others, if they do not persist in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you have been cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these natural branches be grafted back into their own tree.

Defender of the Faith 777 · May 31, 2002

On another thread NRutman. I made some comments that I regret making. Fact, but said derogitorily. I'll join you on another thread Nate. I feel bad coming back to this thread. I truly did not represent Christ. I apologize with complete sincerity.

I'll join you on another thread Nate. TTYL Jesus loves you!

altya · Jun 1, 2002

JN 10:25 Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."

Yes, when you are Gods sheep and you listen to His voice, God knows you and you follow.

This does not speak of a time when you know Jesus for a moment. Or that you gave your heart to Jesus when you are emotionally convinced. Many people are walking around the earth that think they are saved because they are re-born. But there is a re-born (salvation) of your soul as well.

1Pe 1:9 receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

This is speaking of a continuously live changing experience. You have to take up your cross and follow Jesus, plus you have to know God, and this is reachable when you study the bible plus worship God in Spirit and truth. This means GROWTH.

1Pe 2:2 as newborn babes, long for the spiritual milk which is without guile, that ye may grow thereby unto salvation;

VOW · Jun 1, 2002

To Altya:

This means GROWTH.

ABSOLUTELY!

Peace be with you,
~VOW

altya · Jun 1, 2002

Thanks Vow,
I have seen, only Christians who really growth from a spiritual baby unto the stature of Christ understand this. I too grow with fighting and arguing in the flesh until I understood the growing process. I dont think we will stop growing while we are on earth but praise God its so worthwhile.

Messenger · Jun 1, 2002

Yes, when you are Gods sheep and you listen to His voice, God knows you and you follow.This does not speak of a time when you know Jesus for a moment. Or that you gave your heart to Jesus when you are emotionally convinced. Many people are walking around the earth that think they are saved because they are re-born. But there is a re-born (salvation) of your soul as well.

The whole quote didn't paste but just wanted to say very well stated. Love and God Bless

altya · Jun 1, 2002

Thanks Messenger - God Bless you

Othniel · Jun 1, 2002

Altya, God blesses me with your Spiritual understanding and your gentle and quiet Spirit. Thank you for letting Him use you the way He does!

Peace to all who seek it,
<><

altya · Jun 1, 2002

Thanks for this very nice compliment

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