Salvation

[Chris†opher Paul]

While I agree that accepting Christ's sarifice is neccesary for salvation, I am not sure that is is sufficient.

I think that both accepting and living the life are required. Else, I could just go around killing people with no care in the world.

Who agrees or not? Im still learning, so you will have to forgive me if I am totally off on this one.

 

[Defender of the Faith 777]

Friend:

This is AGAIN a OSAS issue. I personally believe that if Christ is in our hearts, we don't WANT to do that stuff. God and such evil desires and sin cannot all co-exist. If we are truly Christians, then, you need not worry about that. God is the leader of your life now. Not to say that you won't sin. King David was a murderer and adulterer at one point. We know he's not in hell right now.

When God enters one's heart, He cannot be kicked out. Whatever God establishes is permanent. So why can't people see that if He establishes HIMSELF in someone's heart, then sin, WHICH IS ALREADY FORGIVEN!!!, will not invalidate our adoption into God's family.

John 3:16
6:47
Romans 10:9-10
3:22-24 *
Galatians (chapters 2,3, and 5:1-about 7 or 8)
Ephesians 2:8-9
Romans 8: (the very end of the chapter)
4

Jesus Himself made the question clear. The question is, do you belive Him (I'm not necessarily asking you)?

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by Defender of the Faith 777
Friend, here we go:

This is AGAIN a OSAS issue. I personally believe that if Christ is in our hearts, we don't WANT to do that stuff. God and such evil desires and sin cannot all co-exist. If we are truly Christians, then, you need not worry about that. God is the leader of your life now. Not to say that you won't sin. King David was a murderer and adulterer at one point. We know he's not in hell right now.

When God enters one's heart, He cannot be kicked out. Whatever God establishes is permanent. So why can't people see that if He establishes HIMSELF in someone's heart, then sin, WHICH IS ALREADY FORGIVEN!!!, will not invalidate our adoption into God's family.

John 3:16
6:47
Romans 10:9-10
3:22-24 *
Galatians (chapters 2,3, and 5:1-about 7 or 8)
Ephesians 2:8-9
Romans 8the very end of the chapter)
4

Jesus Himself made the question clear. The question is, do you belive Him (I'm not necessarily asking you)?

Thanks. But I wonder about struggling against the temptation to sin. I mean, I can have thoughts towards sin, which I choose to fight. Does that mean I am not a true Christian? Just trying to understand, thanks.

 

[NRutman]

How much studying have you done on the subject of sin? It sounds as though you do not have a clear Biblical understanding of what sin is and how it affects us (that's not a slam - many professing Christians do not begin to understand sin, and I think it is impossible to completely understand it while on this earth). I would recommend reading the first chapter of J.C. Ryle's book entitled "Holiness" where he does an excellent job of explaining sin (I am sure there are other excellent books that do a more in-depth explaination, but Ryle's was the most helpful for me).

Basically, if Christ's sacrifice is not sufficient, we're all going to Hell. Even our best attempts to please God have the visible stain of sin (which is why it's impossible to please God without faith - Hebrews 11:6a). Read Hebrews 11 and Ephesians 1 and 2. The Bible is very clear that we are saved by faith alone, through grace.

However, you raise an interesting question. Why can't Christians just go around purposely committing endless sins? Why isn't that ok? My answer would be because if they have such a lack of love for God and the things that He loves, how can they love His Son and claim salvation? Sanctification must be occuring for justification to have taken place (in fact, the Bible never seperates the two processes). The Bible shows us that there is a clear correlation between those who love God, and those who follow His commandments.

I hope that helps,
Nate

 

[Defender of the Faith 777]

No prob at all, you make it sound like I DO completely understand the core of soteriology.

No, our sin nature always exists. That's part of being human. But spiritually, we are cleansed and forgiven (remeber, Christ died for all sins: past, present, and future. If we accept His death of forgiveness, then nothing can condemn us. It's all forgiven by His blood).

Sinning does not mean you're not a true Christian. It just means you're flawed. You're not made perfect until you have your glorified body, absent of it's sin nature. Until then, fight the good fight!

"Let you light so shine before men, so that they may see you're good works, and you may glorify your Father in heaven." Matthew 5:16

 

[NRutman]

777,

I don't think it's so cut and dry. David was a follower of God long before he committed adultry and murder. Sin and God do both exist in our hearts - the Bible tells us that they wage war against each other (see 1 Peter 2, especially verse 11). Just because someone accepts Christ does not mean that sin is gone from his/her life - that is only when the battle begins! The amazing part of Salvation is that we also know that the end of the battle is written, where Christ is standing victorious!

Hope that helps,
Nate

 

[NRutman]

777,

My first reply was not posted to you (sorry - you're reply wasn't there when I began posting )

Nate

 

[Defender of the Faith 777]

NRutman, you're a better defender of the faith than I. I couldn't exactly describe it with clarity. The differences of sanctification, justification, and "salvation" is a confusing ground. It's an issue that I need to spend more time on. TTYL Jesus loves you!

 

[Defender of the Faith 777]

Wilikers!!! You keep on posting right after I start writing! I'll just leave now, just ignore me. jk lol

 

[eldermike]

Nate,,,

AMEN!!!!!

Blessings

 

[Defender of the Faith 777]

The war is already won. Remeber when Jesus said, "It is finished!" ? I don't belive that sin dwells in our hearts, but it is a lust originated in our mind, and is carried out by our flesh. The heart is the tabernacle of God. Even if it is voluntarily ignored by us because of the flesh.

 

[Defender of the Faith 777]

Quite an entrance, NRutman. We would love your help on these forums. Here's my very, very few blessings. Get some armor, hopefully a belt of truth, sheild of faith, or helmet of salvation.

 

[Messenger]

True accepting of Jesus into your heart and giving your life to God means that you don't live for the world but for God. We leave our old life and become new in Christ. We will always be tempted and will always need to pray for guidance. We must always strive to follow the Holy Spirit. It is important to read our Bibles, Pray and Love. Accepting Jesus means accepting him in all things it isn't that we say a one time prayer and that's it. Salvation is a constant relationship with Christ. If you say the prayer and think you got a free get into heaven free card and go around purposly sinning you don't have Salvation...you truely didn't accept Christ. Christ can see our hearts and our minds....We must try our best in all things to do what is right and when we stumble pray for forgiveness get back on our feet and begin walking with Christ again immediately. With time the ways of the world become less desireable and the way of Christ becomes more natural. With Christ all things are possible and it is really a wonderful pleasing life and the ways of Satan aren't appealing. Faith without works is dead. By accepting Jesus and following Him works will be produced. Love and God bless.

 

[kern]

Originally posted by s0uljah
While I agree that accepting Christ's sarifice is neccesary for salvation, I am not sure that is is sufficient.

I think that both accepting and living the life are required. Else, I could just go around killing people with no care in the world.

Who agrees or not? Im still learning, so you will have to forgive me if I am totally off on this one.

The Catholic church agrees with you, at least as far as you have stated. James clearly shows that "faith without works is dead". You must not only trust in Jesus as your savior, but also trust in him enough to follow what he said (or do your best trying). It's *all* a matter of "faith", it's just a question of what sort of faith. Even the demons believe, and shudder.

-Chris

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Ok, so what you all are saying is that if I accept Christ, I won't ever sin, but if I happen to sin, I didn't really accept Christ?

If you disagree with the above, then only accepting the truth of Christ matters, which means that even demons are saved? HUH?

 

[Defender of the Faith 777]

NO NO, we didn't say that. I told you, Christ died for ALL sins. Past present and future. If you accept His gift of forgiveness, then nothing can condemn you! You are God's child, and you will not lose your adoption.

I am coming back to discuss this "faith without works is 'dead'" issue. BRB.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by Defender of the Faith 777
If you accept His gift of forgiveness, then nothing can condemn you!

Then why does the scripture say that only a small number of people will get through the narrow road? There are millions of "Christians," that accept Christ, but surely, they aren't all going to make it. Right?

 

[Defender of the Faith 777]

Works are an outward manifestation of the inward change that Christ's blood has upon our soul.

As for James 2, why is it like pulling teeth to get a "works" person to quote anything besides these 13 verses? Look at James 2:14 VERY CLOSELY

What doth it profit my brethren, if someone SAYS he has faith, but has no works? Can THAT faith save him?

WOW!! (Pardon the superlative interjection) That's the entire message of James 2! Verse 14 and 18 are proof of this!

You SHOW ME your faith without works and I will SHOW YOU my faith BY MY WORKS!

It is simply stating this: We show others our faith by our works (note the words "show" and "says" in context in verses 18 & 14) Our works are an outward manifestation of the Holy Spirit in our hearts. God will know if we're truly saved. They don't. If I do things that represent Christ, and do good works, then you do. That's what this passage states.

Maybe you missed all the verses on the first page. Care to explain? TTYL Jesus loves you!

 

[Messenger]

James 2:26
For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

 

[Defender of the Faith 777]

OK, well, just ignore my post, I guess.