Salvation through Works

[tcampen]

I wonder if one could be a slave to one's own deceived self?

Perhaps that's exactly what we all are. I understand the idea of submitting to God's will rather than one's own will. The problem is, even among people of the same professed religion, what God's will is varies tremendously, as does the nature of God, the qualities of God, etc. There are several reasons for this variation within those who profess to submt to the one true authority. One explanation, which is at least as good as any other, is that everyone is a slave to their own, subjective ideas of the supreme being(s), just without realizing it.

I think everyone recognizes this happens, but refuse to believe they themselves are among those who do it - it just happens to be everyone else who is deceived. But that is highly unlikely.

 

[Ragamuffin]

Perhaps that's exactly what we all are. I understand the idea of submitting to God's will rather than one's own will. The problem is, even among people of the same professed religion, what God's will is varies tremendously, as does the nature of God, the qualities of God, etc. There are several reasons for this variation within those who profess to submt to the one true authority. One explanation, which is at least as good as any other, is that everyone is a slave to their own, subjective ideas of the supreme being(s), just without realizing it.

I think everyone recognizes this happens, but refuse to believe they themselves are among those who do it - it just happens to be everyone else who is deceived. But that is highly unlikely.

I think I see your position. The God of the bible's will in scripture seems to be twofold.
1- The generic will of God - i.e. simply obeying the living Word.
2- The specific will of God. i.e. God lays it on your heart to give your down-on-his-luck friend your car.

The variation is played out in the specifics. I am not you and you are not me (go figure). But the bottom line in the Christian's life is that God's specific and generic will of God MUST line up and coincide with scripture.
As to the nature of God; I doubt we will ever see every quality of God this side of eternity. I read this morning that Moses couldn't see God or he would die. The God of Jesus remains mysterious and reveals Himself sparingly; and only to those who "seek."

Our Prophet Messiah has revealed this "Great Reverse" only to those who approach Him as kids. True and overwhelming freedom masked in seeming slavery.


Ragamuffin

 

[tcampen]

But the bottom line in the Christian's life is that God's specific and generic will of God MUST line up and coincide with scripture.
As to the nature of God; I doubt we will ever see every quality of God this side of eternity. I read this morning that Moses couldn't see God or he would die. The God of Jesus remains mysterious and reveals Himself sparingly; and only to those who "seek." Our Prophet Messiah has revealed this "Great Reverse" only to those who approach Him as kids. True and overwhelming freedom masked in seeming slavery.


Ragamuffin

Whether one's beliefs about God coincide with any particular written text is still painfully subjective. The "plain meaning" of the bible does not exist, or else tens of thousands of Christian denominations, and countless more independent churches would not exist. Sometimes the variations are minute, sometimes they are material to fundamental issues such as salvation. And, yet, all are using the exact same bible as the basis for their understanding of God's will. Thus, it really isn't so simple as claiming to be a bible-believing Christian, when even among that specific group material variation exists.

A more plausible explanation for this variation is that everyone imputes their own subjective ideas into their beliefs. People who believe similarly commune in fellowship, as people naturally do with any similarity. I'm not making a judgement on God, or whether God exists, just people's perception of God. When dealing with a supernatural entity that transcends perception as we know it in the natural world, it is impossible to narrow down anything with certainty in an objective fashion.

 

[Ragamuffin]

You make a good point regarding the numerous claims on truth borne out of so many denominations. I disagree as to the reason. I would submit to you that these claims of truth are simply disagreements on minor issues. To the shame of Christian churches across the world, we have made minor issues into major wars. Fortunately, not all have done this. Someone wise once said "In essentials, UNITY; In non-essentials, LIBERTY; in all things, CHARITY." We need to major in the majors and minor in the minors. There is, I argue, a body of Christian knowledge commonly known as "orthodox" beliefs. They are the essentials of the Christian faith and make a Christian church, Christian. The fact that there are differing denominations is indicative of the fact that - this guy sees the glass full, while the other guy sees the glass half empty. The glass still contains 5oz of water and on that they agree. Although claims have been made that Christian church A has the insider information on the minor issues, all claim to hold to the essentials of the historic Christian faith (deity of Christ, trinity...), or orthodoxy. Anyone outside of this is usually considered a "cult."

Rag-man

 

[Havoc]

Havoc, I think you are reeking / wreaking havoc on this sight out of pure fear of an unknown God that makes no sense because he doesn't think like you.

Ever noticed that people who pretend to know what other people are thinking or feeling are usually wrong? Well you are. I'm not afraid. God is not unknown to me, nor is Goddess.

There cannot be any peace in your life or future hope when your ultimate destiny is worm food.

There is peace in my life, and future assurance. My ultimate destiny is a place with God, and Goddess.

Stop asking us these questions.

I know they are tough questions but it might do you good to consider them.

Go fight it out with God like Lt. Dan (Forrest Gump). Bring a bible and listen... and duke it out. God fights like a gentleman, although He knows your every weakness.

Why would God want me to bring a Bible? And why would he want me to be like a hollywood character? God doesn't fight at all, actually. He appears to each person in the way they are best able to understand. Maybe it's you who are doing the fighting? That would expalin the propensity toward martial language.

Been there, surrendered, and won
Ragamuffin

Been there, didn't need to surrender, never was a battle.

 

[foolsparade]

Yes you are very perceptive. I do consider myself a spiritually weak person. That is the beauty of it all. The bible, which I am sure you despise, and probably cannot understand since the scripture says that the unspiritual cannot understand the things of the spirit, for they are spiritually discerned.

I agree with you and believe in life before death as well, but from my own "weak" Weltanschauung, my understanding is that eternity begins the moment of conception, so to speak of "before" or "after" is irrelevant.

Letting life "take care of itself" seems to be a pretty flippant attitude considering your aim to control your every decision in life so as not become anyone's slave. You seem to have answers for everything but the question of "what then?"

I wonder if one could be a slave to one's own deceived self?


Weak, yet ever strong,
Ragamuffin

you admit being spiritually weak and you also seem to imply you have no desire to become stronger? and as if right on que, your fellow purveyor of mediocrity retorts with the always so scholarly "amen!"

 

[Bohemian]

you admit being spiritually weak and you also seem to imply you have no desire to become stronger? and as if right on que, your fellow purveyor of mediocrity retorts with the always so scholarly "amen!"

Hey! Let's keep it civil! We don't have to resort to personal attacks!

 

[tcampen]

You make a good point regarding the numerous claims on truth borne out of so many denominations. I disagree as to the reason. I would submit to you that these claims of truth are simply disagreements on minor issues.

Most are minor issues. But some are material, such as whether one can loose salvation, whether salvation is attained by one's free will to choose Jesus as his/her savior OR pre-election of the saved by god before time began, the role of works in salvation, the concept of universal salvation, young versus old earth, the origin of biological diversity on earth, whether we are living in the last days before armagedon, etc. These are not trivial or minor issues, yet born-again, bible believing Christians who follow Gods direction on such matters appear to be going in different directions among themselves. Who's right? I'm just not comfortable claiming my view of God is more accurate than others who are just as devote, informed and sincere.

 

[Ragamuffin]

tcampen, are you a believer in Christ? I am curious to know who, what, if anything you worship? Are you simply a seeker? If so, what have you sought out?

In regards to your perception of view X vs. view Y I would say the majority of the differing views, opinions, and even denominations would consider the other views (90% of the time, there are always exceptions) to be within the realm of orthodoxy on those issues. Nevertheless, they do present possible divisions among Christians. I am reminded of Paul's encouragement in Philippians, : "...continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling."

I don't think we will ever have all of the answers, although I might like to think I do! I simply read His word, fellowship with God, and trust Him. I do believe that trust is the mark of a true disciple. The challenge is that most of us, including me many times, would rather surrender our souls to the ivory tower of exegesis than risk living in union with God. Most of what we do here is talk, rib each other, make jokes, and think a little. It is enjoyable, but my reality is early morning, when everything is dead to the world, I sit before the "Abba" of my soul adn receive refreshing. It is an "experience."

Be blessed
Ragamuffin

 

[Ragamuffin]

I absolutely do admit my weaknesses in many areas of my life. "when I am weak, He is made strong in me." Your inadmission of your weakness is probably your biggest weakness. Of course I assume too much according to Havoc. At the same time you need to understand "his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms." I understand that you don't believe in the resurrection or this or that... blah blah blah. I do; and more than that, I live and experience it every day. My desire to grow stronger is an incredible reality. And as for Bohemian, his "Amen" is a natural response from a kindred Spirit. Again, I'm sure you have your explanations and attacks regarding that as well. But the very fact that you even visit this website shows me that God is drawing you ever so subtly to His people and His word. That is my narrow-minded viewpoint on it all.

I find it fascinating how angered and upset people get when someone expresses a belief in Jesus as Messiah. You know, I have been there and done that. I have been at the top of the power chain. I know what it is like to have wealth, natural talents and abilities, and many other "desirables" with which the world seeks after. And yet "...whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. (Philippians 3)"
You might say I have become a "fool" for Christ and I love it.


A real life, foolish Ragamuffin

P.S. Bohemian, be blessed brother.

 

[Ragamuffin]

Another real-life example is a situation I know of where one leader and most of his congregation have all-out attacked another high profile leader in the same geographical area for holding to an "orthodox" view of Arminianism. It is sad, frustrating, and a horrible witness to non-believers, but it doesn't negate the reality of a God who loves us with unrelenting passion and tenderness. The slimy, steely-eyed, out-to-get-you car salesman doesn't make the vehicle I buy of a lesser quality. My experience lacks, but the vehicle is still the dependable, Motor Trend "Car of the Year."

The guy shouting from the street corner, waving his bible as he exclaims "you're headed for hell you sinning sons of guns..." doesn't make God any less than he is.

I don't know. I'm tired. I'm hitting the hay.

I pray a blessing of peace and joy over your life in Jesus name. Goodnight.

Ragamuffin

 

[tcampen]

tcampen, are you a believer in Christ? I am curious to know who, what, if anything you worship? Are you simply a seeker? If so, what have you sought out?

I believe in truth, in whatever form it takes or presents itself in. I do believe in Jesus as a great teacher of universal truths and morality, but I do not believe he was the son of God, nor performed supernatural feats or was resurrected. Thomas Jefferson held such a view, yet still finding the morals of Jesus to be the best the world has ever known - unfortunately (according to Jefferson) Jesus' followers distorted the true person of Jesus and his teachings. So, yes, I do believe in Jesus, but differently than you might.

In regards to your perception of view X vs. view Y I would say the majority of the differing views, opinions, and even denominations would consider the other views (90% of the time, there are always exceptions) to be within the realm of orthodoxy on those issues. Nevertheless, they do present possible divisions among Christians. I am reminded of Paul's encouragement in Philippians, : "...continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling."

I don't think we will ever have all of the answers, although I might like to think I do! I simply read His word, fellowship with God, and trust Him. I do believe that trust is the mark of a true disciple. The challenge is that most of us, including me many times, would rather surrender our souls to the ivory tower of exegesis than risk living in union with God. Most of what we do here is talk, rib each other, make jokes, and think a little. It is enjoyable, but my reality is early morning, when everything is dead to the world, I sit before the "Abba" of my soul adn receive refreshing. It is an "experience."

Be blessed
Ragamuffin

We all experience the divine in our own ways. I'm glad you found a way that pleases you. I'm simply recognizing the same informed, honest and sincere phenomena of others who believe differently.

 

[First Echelon]

Salvation comes by living life not for yourself as so many forget.

Religion is self-sacrifice.

 

[Diane_Windsor]

Do you earn Salvation through works? No!

Agreed.

Jesus himself said that we are saved by faith.

He most certainly did not.

There is absolutely nothing we can do to atone for Christ's crucifiction. Christ died for that exact purpose-to forgive our sins. If we need to do good deeds to earn forgiveness than what was the point of Christ dieing for us.
What are your thoughts on this?

From Paul's letter to the Ephesians (NIV):

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast."

Faith is the channel of God's grace, and faith in and of itself does not save anybody. The Grace of God saves us.

DIANE