SALVATION offered by Jesus: COMPLETED and IRREVOCABLE

[justbyfaith]

Also, 1 Corinthians 15:31 teaches us to die (to self) daily. I would say that this is a huge part of what our salvation results in; and is even the practical aspect of our salvation working itself out.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Hello. I hope this day is treating you well.

It is. Thank you.

Look, I could have replied with the same statements back at you.

Actually - you couldn't have since I haven't sent you a post listing a bunch of scriptures which supposedly support eternal security.

But you did engaged me with such a post from the opposite camp.

Apparently (from looking back at things) I have conflated you with another person (justbyfaith) who only wanted to address entire posts in general and objected to FreeGrace2 breaking them down.

I was mistaken and that accounts for the way I posted to you. At any rate - my generalized post to you should show him now just how unproductive that kind of engagement is.

However, because I study the scriptures daily, I just so happened to know this subject and gave you answers accordingly with scripture. I didn't even really need commentary....,

If you study the scriptures daily, you could see that your post was full of assumptions regarding virtually every verse you gave me.

Actually your commentary was full of assumptions rather then just commenting on the scripture content itself.

If you want to break it down now and have me point out those individual assumptions - we can.

All I see is you side stepping the scriptures I gave you and deflecting them. Instead of being rude, maybe just say you disagree and you'd like to end the discussion there.

I'm not side stepping your scriptures. I merely commented on them as a whole.

I haven't been rude. I have just stated that your post was full of assumptions rather than sticking to what the individual scriptures actually said.

Why would I want to end the discussion? If you'd like me to point out your assumptions scripture by scripture, I am not only willing to do so but anxious to do so.

If - in the process - I list scriptures and comment on them with assumptions - you can comment on where you disagree with my commentary verse by verse.

Freegrace2 should be your example in discussion with others. I applaud that person for pleasant, civil, and wonderful discussion.

Good for him.

You have undoubtedly noticed that he also points out your assumptions when you make them.

Here is one of your assumptions for starters:

3- 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9, need I even add commentary to this? If you are a Christian and you do not obey the gospel, one "shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord". These 2 verses automatically imply loss of salvation.
Example: "If you do not go to work, I will fire you" automatically that implies that if I do go to work, I will not be fired.

“dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power" 2 Thess. 1:8-9

Clearly, a person must obey the gospel in order to become a believer.

Sinning after obeying the gospel is not "not obeying" the gospel. It is simply the lot in life of all men who are being sanctified over time by the work of the Holy Spirit (who will not leave or forsake them according to the promise of the Lord).

Where do you see a backsliding Christian losing his salvation in that passage?

 

[FreeGrace2]

What is the key circumstance that remains the same with all 3 of the references to the unpardonable sin? They did not acknowledge Jesus they denied Him. I’m not saying for sure that the unpardonable sin is undoubtedly denying Christ. I’m saying that there is evidence to support this idea.

Don't forget what Jesus said:
Matt 12:32 - Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Seems to me that denying Christ would be the same as speaking a word against Him.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You will need for the Holy Spirit to reveal to you that being graffed into the olive tree means salvation.

The Holy Spirit would NEVER teach anything that leads to loss of salvation, otherwise, He and Christ would be in opposition.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I would contend that it is not wrongly translated. It is merely your unexpert opinion, that it is.

Oh, I see. You've deemed yourself some kind of expert, who's expert at determining who's not an expert. Interesting.

 

[JLB777]

I asked this:
"Please define 'end of our faith'. What does it mean and WHEN does it occur?"

Of course it states when faith ends

Again.

When you obtain the reality of your faith, in which you no longer hope for the thing but have obtained the thing you have been hoping for.

Obviously you don’t understand faith and what it is, and how it works.



Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1


As long as you have faith for something, you have the hope of obtaining the thing you have faith for.

You don't yet have have the thing you are hoping for, but you have the substance of it.


Paul explains.


24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.
Romans 8:24-25



But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 1 Thessalonians 5:8


We are saved now by faith in Jesus Christ, and eagerly hope for His return, to receive the salvation He promised to those who have faith.


27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:27-28


We all must stand before Him at the Judgement.


28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 10:28-29

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
• those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Paul says it this way -

God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

We must believe with the heart (Romans 10:8-10). And if we believe with the heart, a changed life will not be far behind (James 2:14-26).

Except James never says or suggests that deeds will follow faith. Which is why he encouraged his audience to demonstrate their faith so others would see it.

There is a diffetence between lip service and actual faith (Luke 11:39-40, Matthew 23:25-28, Matthew 15:8)

Without a doubt! But I'm not talking about lip service, which includes raising a hand, walking down an aisle, repeating a prayer, or things like that.

I'm talking about the realization that the individual is sinful, headed for hell, and cannot save himself from hell, and has trusted his soul to Jesus Christ to save him from hell. That ain't lip service.

That said, if said individual never grows up in the faith doesn't mean he didn't "really believe". It means just that he never grew up. His life will not look any different than any other unbeliever, and maybe worse than some unbelievers.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
" And I've done that. With John 5:24 and 6:47 to show from Scripture that WHEN a person believes, they POSSESS eternal life, by the phrases "whoever believes...HAS" and "the one believing HAS".

Then from John 10:28a I showed CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing eternal life.

The CAUSE of possessing eternal life is Jesus Christ, who said, "I give them eternal life". From the previous 2 verses, the "them" refers to whoever believes and the one believing. Obviously.

The EFECT of possessing eternal life is eternal security, by the phrase "and they shall never perish".

The "they" refers back to the "them" in the first phrase.

Therefore, at the very MOMENT one places their faith/trust in Jesus Christ for salvation, they POSSESS eternal life. And the result is very obvious; they shall never perish.

If you or anyone else can unpack these points, please proceed."

And the non-responsive reply to what I said:

Thanks for ignoring the verses I posted. Why would anyone think the verses you've shared somehow remove the clear meaning of the verses I shared?

Anyhoo, this response did not unpack anything I posted.

If anything I posted is unbiblical, it should be easy to unpack."

How do your verses remove the clear meaning of the verses posted by him?

Posted by whom? Your question is anything but clear.

The answer is, they don't, so you must needs take them into account when forming your theology.

More unclearness.

My post provided a clear explanation of John 10:28a and an offer to refute it if I'm wrong. But I see that there is no interest in attempting that.

Until you unpack what I posted regarding that verse, there is nothing at all that can sway me to loss of salvation. What Jesus said there was TOO CLEAR to ever fall for that notion.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I’m sorry I thought you might’ve seen it.

“Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God: But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God. And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭12:8-10

““Anyone who isn’t with me opposes me, and anyone who isn’t working with me is actually working against me. “So I tell you, every sin and blasphemy can be forgiven—except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which will never be forgiven. Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭12:30-32‬

What is clear from both passages is that whatever is spoken AGAINST Christ can be forgiven. That would include rebelling against Him.

What can't be forgiven is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. And neither verse actually describes what that is. It sure isn't ceasing to believe, because that is against Christ Himself, not the Holy Spirit.

The ONLY place that describes what blasphemy against the Holy Spirit looks like is where Pharisees ascribed the miracles of Jesus to the devil. THAT is against the Holy Spirit.

So anyone who tries to use any of these passages as support for loss of salvation are just barking up the wrong tree.

 

[FreeGrace2]

John 10:28 only applies to Jesus' sheep, who are defined in John 10:27. Context.

You want context? How about backing up a bit more, to v.9 in order to know who His sheep really are.

v.9 "I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.They will come in and go out, and find pasture."

It should be obvious to all that whoever is saved is one of His sheep. And v.9 is the WAY to become one of His sheep.

v.27 isn't a definition of who His sheep but a description of them.

Cease to be one of His sheep, the promise no longer applies.

Ok, another commonly held fallacy. Where does the Bible ever speak of sheep ceasing to be one of His sheep? Or the guarantee of salvation "no longer applying"?

Neither idea is found in Scripture.

Nor is the idea that a sheep can become a goat. So there's no evidence in Scripture for such changes to occur.

 

[justbyfaith]

Except James never says or suggests that deeds will follow faith. Which is why he encouraged his audience to demonstrate their faith so others would see it.


Without a doubt! But I'm not talking about lip service, which includes raising a hand, walking down an aisle, repeating a prayer, or things like that.

I'm talking about the realization that the individual is sinful, headed for hell, and cannot save himself from hell, and has trusted his soul to Jesus Christ to save him from hell. That ain't lip service.

That said, if said individual never grows up in the faith doesn't mean he didn't "really believe". It means just that he never grew up. His life will not look any different than any other unbeliever, and maybe worse than some unbelievers.

I would not want to give such a person the assurance of OSAS doctrine; but would exhort him or her that "Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." Most assuredly the Lord knows them that are His; but if you are walking in unbelief/disobedience you don't know if you are His and I wouldn't want to tell you that you are lest you put your trust in that and never repent to turn to Christ, and have it turn out that you were never His.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"No one is saved from "day to day faith". That's what is called "lifestyle faith", or trusting God for one's daily necessities. Where does the Bible claim day to day faith for salvation? No where is where."

2 Corinthians 6:1-2, "TODAY IS THE DAY OF SALVATION". This is not merely a verse given so that the evangelist can call the sinner to salvation now, so that he doesn't put off his decision for Christ. It is telling us that ae salvation is from moment to moment, and has to do with us not hardening our hearts from moment to moment.

It seems my point was totally missed here.

btw, there is nothing in the Bible that suggests that our salvation is "from moment to moment". It is presented as a promised based solely on the person placing their faith in Jesus Christ for it.

Such an idea is contrary to what Jesus said in John 10:28a, which you've avoided dealing with to date.

 

[justbyfaith]

You want context? How about backing up a bit more, to v.9 in order to know who His sheep really are.

v.9 "I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.They will come in and go out, and find pasture."

It should be obvious to all that whoever is saved is one of His sheep. And v.9 is the WAY to become one of His sheep.

v.27 isn't a definition of who His sheep but a description of them.


Ok, another commonly held fallacy. Where does the Bible ever speak of sheep ceasing to be one of His sheep? Or the guarantee of salvation "no longer applying"?

Neither idea is found in Scripture.

Nor is the idea that a sheep can become a goat. So there's no evidence in Scripture for such changes to occur.

Yes, John 10:27 describes sheep. And if you don't act like a sheep, chances are you are not a sheep, no matter what experience of salvation you may have had. So if you act like a goat, I am not saying you were ever truly one of His sheep before that.

 

[justbyfaith]

I said:
"No one is saved from "day to day faith". That's what is called "lifestyle faith", or trusting God for one's daily necessities. Where does the Bible claim day to day faith for salvation? No where is where."

It seems my point was totally missed here.

btw, there is nothing in the Bible that suggests that our salvation is "from moment to moment". It is presented as a promised based solely on the person placing their faith in Jesus Christ for it.

Such an idea is contrary to what Jesus said in John 10:28a, which you've avoided dealing with to date.

On the contrary, 2 Corinthians 6:2 says it clearly. And if you fail to see that, you fail to see that on purpose (see Hebrews 3:7-8).

 

[justbyfaith]

1 Corinthians 15:31 also teaches it clearly.

 

[justbyfaith]

I have also dealt with John 10:28, with some contention from opposing parties.

 

[justbyfaith]

Jude 1:5 is relevant to this discussion.

 

[BNR32FAN]

What is clear from both passages is that whatever is spoken AGAINST Christ can be forgiven. That would include rebelling against Him.

What can't be forgiven is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. And neither verse actually describes what that is. It sure isn't ceasing to believe, because that is against Christ Himself, not the Holy Spirit.

The ONLY place that describes what blasphemy against the Holy Spirit looks like is where Pharisees ascribed the miracles of Jesus to the devil. THAT is against the Holy Spirit.

So anyone who tries to use any of these passages as support for loss of salvation are just barking up the wrong tree.

Please forgive me I was wrong. It wouldn’t make any sense if someone never accepted Jesus and denied Him their entire life even until death then what Jesus said wouldn’t really apply to that situation because He said you won’t be forgiven in this world or the world to come. I always attributed the miracles that Jesus performed to God The Father not the Holy Spirit. That’s very interesting. Please forgive my mistake and thanks for helping me to understand. God bless you sister. I can’t believe I didn’t catch that before.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Of course it states when faith ends

Again.

When you obtain the reality of your faith, in which you no longer hope for the thing but have obtained the thing you have been hoping for.

Obviously you don’t understand faith and what it is, and how it works.

To the contrary, I fully understand the Scripture. The "reality of my faith" is NOW. But it seems there is no reality to your faith, from what is being posted.

But please don't judge my faith. You have no idea. My faith is real. And I HAVE obtained the reality of my faith. What I haven't obtained yet is life in eternity.

But I KNOW what Jesus taught about possessing eternal life, and not just the "hope" for it at some future date. He plainly said that those who believe possess eternal life.

Do you believe that or do you believe that the gift of eternal life is given at some other point? And if so, please specify what that actual point is.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1

Great verse. And it refutes your notions. Faith here is a noun, a thing, a substance. Further, it is an EVIDENCE of unseen things. What is evidence if not substance?

As long as you have faith for something, you have the hope of obtaining the thing you have faith for.

So it seems you don't yet have salvation then. Sad.

You don't yet have have the thing you are hoping for, but you have the substance of it.

Sad also that the internal contradiction here isn't being appreciated.

We are saved now by faith in Jesus Christ, and eagerly hope for His return, to receive the salvation He promised to those who have faith.

More confusion. How can one be "saved now" and yet "eagerly hope for His return, to receive the salvation He promised"??

How do you not see the contradiction?

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:27-28

Are you not aware that there are 3 tenses of salvation? Apparently not. This verse refers to the future tense of salvation.

Past tense: we are saved from the penalty of sin. John 5:24 Justification

Present tense: we are being saved from the power of sin. Sanctification

Future tense: we will be sved from the presence of sin. Glorification

It always helps to know which tense is being referred to when salvation is the subject.

John 10:28a is a statement of the CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing eternal life.

When Jesus said "I give them eternal life" He was stating the CAUSE of possessing eternal life, which is Himself.

When jesus said "and they shall never perish", he was stating the EFFECT of possessing eternal life, which is eternal security.

Now, if you'd like, please refute these points from Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I would not want to give such a person the assurance of OSAS doctrine; but would exhort him or her that "Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity."

That is sad to me, because our Lord plainly stated eternal security in John 10:28a, by noting the CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing eternal life.

Most assuredly the Lord knows them that are His; but if you are walking in unbelief/disobedience you don't know if you are His and I wouldn't want to tell you that you are lest you put your trust in that and never repent to turn to Christ, and have it turn out that you were never His.

This indicates to me that the doctrines of divine discipline and blessings/rewards aren't known or understood. More sadness.