SALVATION offered by Jesus: COMPLETED and IRREVOCABLE

[Marvin Knox]

Hello and good day.

You are as free as anyone to place your thoughts and we can respectfully discuss this with each other regardless if we know each other.

The examples I will use are as follows:

1- Revelation 2:10 = The audience is members of Christ, Christians. The Lord is talking directly to John to give message to each of the Christians in certain locations/areas.

When someone tells you "be thou faithful even unto death and I will give thee a crown of life", the sentence is indicating "do this AND I will do this".

The sentence has a condition, "be faithful unto death; I give you crown of life". This way of sentence structure automatically implies, "if you are not faith unto death, I will NOT give you the crown of life".

Even though it was a message for those Christians in Symrna it is still a message to ALL Christians. Why should they be told any different and have a different set of standards than us today? The gospel has not changed, neither should this message be misconstrued as something not for us.

2- We all sin, even if you are a Christian, we still do Romans 3:23. The Lord does not hear those who have done evil 1 Peter 3:12 combine with Hebrews 10:26-27. If one has "fallen from grace" Galatians 5:4, then we need our fellow brothers and sisters to help "restore" us Galatians 6:1; 1 Peter 3:12.

People who fall under that category the Hebrews 10:26-27 talk about can still be restored if the repent/turn away (Godly sorrow) otherwise, they have no hope.

3- 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9, need I even add commentary to this? If you are a Christian and you do not obey the gospel, one "shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord". These 2 verses automatically imply loss of salvation.

Example: "If you do not go to work, I will fire you" automatically that implies that if I do go to work, I will not be fired.

4- Demas = Found in Colossians 4:14; Philemon 1:24; 2 Timothy 4:10

You can obviously see that Demas is a "fellowlabourer" aka brother in Christ.

Paul is mentioning all the brothers to greet and accept etc etc in Colossians 4 and Demas is one of them.

In Philemon 1:23-24 Paul again states Demas as one of the 3 brothers of Christ.

Somewhere along the line Demas forsook Paul, Christ, and thereby losing his salvation because he returned to the "world".

5- Galatians 1:6-9, Paul is speaking with people who are already Christians. Yet, Paul is scolding them, people turning away from the gospel. What did Paul then say? Let any who turn away (Christians) and teach a different gospel be accursed. What is the meaning? Loss of salvation. You then come full circle back to what Matthew 7:21-23 and 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 tell us.

I appreciate your time and if I dont speak with you before then, have a wonderful weekend.

I've discussed the concept of eternal security over against possible loss of salvation many times and in many situations.

I can't recall many, if any, where so many assumptions were made in a single post by anyone trying to prove that the scriptures teach loss of salvation for truly born again believers.

 

[Marvin Knox]

To @Marvin Knox, It is clear from scripture that God promises to cut off those who don't continue in his goodness (Romans 11:20-22)

Actually it is quite clear. I agree.

But the passage is talking about the gospel going to the gentiles because of the lack of belief by Israel. It has nothing to do with the security or lack of security for believers.

It is clear from 1 John 2:17 that the one who does the will of God abides for ever,

Yes.

What is not clear is that a true believer who fails to do the will of God loses his salvation.

1 John 3:6, and that this is true eternal security.

I assume you meant to say that this is the mark of a true believer.

Obviously the passage cannot be saying that no believer can or does sin since that is contradicted by our life experiences as well as clear statements in the scriptures.

Matthew 7:21-23 and Matthew 13:41-42 show us that commiting iniquity will put you in the furnace of fire; Jesus will say to you, I never knew you.

No - they tell me that some people whom Jesus "never" knew will be put in the furnace of fire.

That cannot apply to anyone who has ever been a true believer and known by Christ. I assume that you have passed from death to life and been known by Christ just as I have.

By any measure of proper theological reasoning - these passages can never be used to support loss of salvation for true believers.

I contend that the redeemed are redeemed by the mercy of God, and this means the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Ghost. Living a life in freedom from sin must surely follow what is described in Titus 3:3-7.

Hopefully we all contend that.

We all agree that freedom from sin and good works follow true salvation in the life of a true believer.

What some of us do not agree about is that a believer who commits sin returns to the status of a vessel for wrath whenever he sins. (Which in my case has been all too often over the last 72 years.)

Oh I totally forgot about Roman 11. Nice work.

Romans 11 has nothing to do with loss of salvation for true believers - be they from the Israel or from the United States.

That is debate mode, and the Bible teaches that debate is of the wrong kind of spirit (Romans 1:29, 2 Corinthians 13:20).

Actually the scriptures tell us that it is of a very good spirit.

"I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires."
2 Timothy 4:1-3

I contend that it is particularly appropriate to so engage those who undermine the security of believers by the preaching of a gospel of works (which is no gospel at all).

 

[Acts2:38]

This has made me think that possibly the meaning of Hebrew 6:4-6 is saying that it is impossible for us as Christians proclaiming the good news to bring back those who were enlightened and not necessarily impossible for that person who turned away from God to be brought back if he should choose to turn back to God. What I think this is saying is because that person already knows the gospel we as Christians cannot teach him anything he doesn’t already know so we cannot bring him back to repentance but I think that person can bring himself back to repentance if he realizes his mistake and turns back to God.

“For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come— and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-6‬

What do you think?

I think you are on the right track with what I was trying to explain to others here.

For a Christian who once followed Christ and His teachings, to turn away and fall from grace due to transgression, would be considered blasphemy. This is the part were I was trying to tell people "Look, at this point here, one would have lost their salvation".

However, if one was to ever reconsider their position/ways and repent/ turn away from the sins that had them fall (Godly sorrow), they can be "restored" aka regain salvation.

From scripture I believe there are some things that one can return from sin themselves without other Christians aid 1 John 1, but I think there is a point reached where one would not be able to themselves and need the assistance of prayers and such from fellow Christians 1 Peter 3:12, Galatians 6:1 for example. One example I can think of is say, a Christian publicly for all to see, shaming Christ by their actions. I would say at this point, that said Christian would need assistance from his piers. This is why many churches offer up "invitation".

 

[Acts2:38]

I think perhaps you misunderstood what I was saying. I was saying why does it matter if we cannot lose our salvation or if we can because the question in the debate about OSAS always ends up with the question was that person saved to begin with. Because the Bible does give clear examples of people who claim to believe but fall away from grace. People who believe OSAS say that person was never saved to begin with and others say he could’ve been saved and fell away. Either way if the person was saved to begin with or not is irrelevant because they did not continue in their faith they still don’t receive salvation. I do agree that we should discuss the scriptures which is why I love this site because it allows me to test my beliefs and also get a broader perspective from other Christians. So I still believe that OSAS or OSNAS is still irrelevant because we must continue in our faith until the day we die or we will not be saved.

Oh I see. Apologies.

 

[Acts2:38]

There is nothing obvious about "falling" meaning loss of salvation in this passage. Such a view comes from a pretext.

Why not? The context implies that more so than "cut off from God's blessings". The whole premise in those verses was "belief" which one would have to continually do day to day. This tells us that one who had no longer believed (fallen aka lost salvation) could in fact return should they repent aka salvation regained.

If it were about blessings, the context would have been clearly different.

Also, I have to ask. What does it even mean to be "cut off from God's blessings"?

You can still have salvation but not blessings? What kind of blessings? Spiritual or physical?

Just some things I wanted to know so I am not assuming.

When the Bible says "obey the gospel" is means to believe the promise of the Good News. Obviously.

No. You are changing words meanings again.

Obey is a verb. An action.

It means "comply with the command, direction, or request of (a person or a law); submit to the authority of."

This is why I kept referring to John 14:15 and John 15:14. You actually have to DO something. You cant just sit there and say "I believe" and your saved. It does not work that way.
sample:
Mark 16:15-16

"He that believes and is baptized..."

You need obedience to the gospel, which is also why I kept stating 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9.

 

[Acts2:38]

I've discussed the concept of eternal security over against possible loss of salvation many times and in many situations.

I can't recall many, if any, where so many assumptions were made in a single post by anyone trying to prove that the scriptures teach loss of salvation for truly born again believers.

Hello. I hope this day is treating you well.

Look, I could have replied with the same statements back at you. However, because I study the scriptures daily, I just so happened to know this subject and gave you answers accordingly with scripture. I didn't even really need commentary, but this is how one discusses with another.

All I see is you side stepping the scriptures I gave you and deflecting them. Instead of being rude, maybe just say you disagree and you'd like to end the discussion there.

Freegrace2 should be your example in discussion with others. I applaud that person for pleasant, civil, and wonderful discussion.

 

[FreeGrace2]

““Anyone who isn’t with me opposes me, and anyone who isn’t working with me is actually working against me. “So I tell you, every sin and blasphemy can be forgiven—except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which will never be forgiven. Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭12:30-32‬

"Speaking against the Holy Spirit" is the context. And the other passage where the unpardonable sin is mentioned, it is specifically about ascribing the miracles of Jesus to the devil.

““I tell you the truth, all sin and blasphemy can be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven. This is a sin with eternal consequences.” He told them this because they were saying, “He’s possessed by an evil spirit.””
‭‭Mark‬ ‭3:28-30‬

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit would be ascribing His power in miracles to the devil.

But this was not the only time Jesus refers to blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

““I tell you the truth, everyone who acknowledges me publicly here on earth, the Son of Man will also acknowledge in the presence of God’s angels. But anyone who denies me here on earth will be denied before God’s angels. Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭12:8-10‬

The key always is "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit", which is ascribing the power of the miracles of Jesus to the devil.

According to Luke the Pharisees were blaspheming against the Holy Spirit because they didn’t acknowledge Jesus.

Well, where is the reference?

 

[FreeGrace2]

It could mean that it would be impossible for someone to teach them anything else that would bring them back to repentance since they were already enlightened and shared in the Holy Spirit.

But it doesn't say that. What it says is clear.

 

[FreeGrace2]

But John 5:24 doesn’t only say those who believe it says those who listen and believe.

““I tell you the truth, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬

Of course. How can one believe if they haven't HEARD what to believe?

If the gospel is presented to someone and they aren't paying attention, they can't believe what they didn't hear.

Now, please address the rest of my post where I showed CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing eternal life and that John 10:28a shows eternal security for recipients of eternal life. Which is from the MOMENT one believes in Christ, from Jn 5:24 and 6:47.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I think you are on the right track with what I was trying to explain to others here.

For a Christian who once followed Christ and His teachings, to turn away and fall from grace due to transgression, would be considered blasphemy.

That's an opinion that is not shared by the Bible. In the parable of the soils, Jesus was clear that the 2nd soil "believed for a while" but then "in time of testing/temptation" they "fell away". Yet, no mention of that being blasphemy. So your claim is an opinion.

This is the part were I was trying to tell people "Look, at this point here, one would have lost their salvation".

And this is the part where I tell people that I've looked and there isn't anything about losing salvation.

However, if one was to ever reconsider their position/ways and repent/ turn away from the sins that had them fall (Godly sorrow), they can be "restored" aka regain salvation.

See? Another opinion: that being "restored" means regaining salvation. Please cite the verse(s) that say this.

 

[Gr8Grace]

All I see is you side stepping the scriptures I gave you and deflecting them.

Really, I have seen over and over and over again folks who take all the 'loss of salvation' verses and give very truthful exegesis of them. Loss of blessings, loss of reward, discipline and the such.

But I have NEVER seen a loss of salvation adherent exegete a clear eternal security verse.

Freegrace has asked a thousand times for someone to exegete John 10:28 compared to his exegesis. I have yet to see someone in the loss of salvation crowd even attempt to exegete that verse. Personal opinions, interpretations and pitting scripture against scripture is all I have seen.

See, a true exegesis of John 10:28, if Freegrace is wrong.......will prove that "never perish" actually means......."may perish" or "might perish." But it can't be done so the loss of salvation crowd has to deflect or pit scripture against scripture.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"There is nothing obvious about "falling" meaning loss of salvation in this passage. Such a view comes from a pretext."

Why not? The context implies that more so than "cut off from God's blessings".

Then demonstrate from the text how this so-called "implication" exists.

The whole premise in those verses was "belief" which one would have to continually do day to day.

Which happens to be the point. No one is saved from "day to day faith". That's what is called "lifestyle faith", or trusting God for one's daily necessities. Where does the Bible claim day to day faith for salvation? No where is whrere.

This tells us that one who had no longer believed (fallen aka lost salvation) could in fact return should they repent aka salvation regained.

It doesn't tell us that at all. Just more assumption with opinion.

If it were about blessings, the context would have been clearly different.

How so?

Also, I have to ask. What does it even mean to be "cut off from God's blessings"?

It means loss of God's blessings.

You can still have salvation but not blessings?

Absolutely. Consider the human side of the comparison between Parent and child. When the child is obedient, they receive their Parent's blessings. But when they rebel, they receive, not blessings, but the Parent's discipline.

What kind of blessings? Spiritual or physical?

Both, of course.

Just some things I wanted to know so I am not assuming.

Well, we've seen enough of that.

I said:
"When the Bible says "obey the gospel" is means to believe the promise of the Good News. Obviously."

Your response:

No. You are changing words meanings again.

Once again, I didn't. Here is John 3:36 - Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects (apietho) the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

NT:544 apeitheo (ap-i-theh'-o); from NT:545; to disbelieve (wilfully and perversely):
KJV - not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving.

Obey is a verb. An action.

Sure is. Same as "believe".

It means "comply with the command, direction, or request of (a person or a law); submit to the authority of."

Show me where the Greek word pietho is used for submission to authority, or complying with commands for salvation.

This is why I kept referring to John 14:15 and John 15:14. You actually have to DO something. You cant just sit there and say "I believe" and your saved. It does not work that way.

Says you. Paul disagrees with your opinion.

Acts 16:
30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

There is NOTHING in the Greek word 'pisteuo' (believe) that even hints of obedience.

It's all about trusting in what Jesus did for you on the cross.

sample:
Mark 16:15-16

"He that believes and is baptized..."

You need obedience to the gospel, which is also why I kept stating 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9.

V.9-end of chapter does not occur in the earliest and most reliable manuscripts.

Further, there are NO OTHER verses in the entire Bible that say that one must be baptized to be saved.

 

[BNR32FAN]

"Speaking against the Holy Spirit" is the context. And the other passage where the unpardonable sin is mentioned, it is specifically about ascribing the miracles of Jesus to the devil.


Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit would be ascribing His power in miracles to the devil.


The key always is "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit", which is ascribing the power of the miracles of Jesus to the devil.


Well, where is the reference?

What is the key circumstance that remains the same with all 3 of the references to the unpardonable sin? They did not acknowledge Jesus they denied Him. I’m not saying for sure that the unpardonable sin is undoubtedly denying Christ. I’m saying that there is evidence to support this idea.

 

[justbyfaith]

Unless the passage clearly states being "cut off" from salvation, there is no reason to make this assumption.

You will need for the Holy Spirit to reveal to you that being graffed into the olive tree means salvation.

 

[justbyfaith]

Please define 'end of our faith'. What does it mean and WHEN does it occur?

And provide Scripture to support your answers.


The Greek word for "genuineness" is wrongly translated. It means approved. However, if the argument becomes an "unapproved" faith means non-saving faith, please provide Scripture that says so, rather than just a personal opinion.

I would contend that it is not wrongly translated. It is merely your unexpert opinion, that it is.

 

[justbyfaith]

Right. And I've done that. With John 5:24 and 6:47 to show from Scripture that WHEN a person believes, they POSSESS eternal life, by the phrases "whoever believes...HAS" and "the one believing HAS".

Then from John 10:28a I showed CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing eternal life.

The CAUSE of possessing eternal life is Jesus Christ, who said, "I give them eternal life". From the previous 2 verses, the "them" refers to whoever believes and the one believing. Obviously.

The EFECT of possessing eternal life is eternal security, by the phrase "and they shall never perish".

The "they" refers back to the "them" in the first phrase.

Therefore, at the very MOMENT one places their faith/trust in Jesus Christ for salvation, they POSSESS eternal life. And the result is very obvious; they shall never perish.

If you or anyone else can unpack these points, please proceed.

We must believe with the heart (Romans 10:8-10). And if we believe with the heart, a changed life will not be far behind (James 2:14-26). There is a diffetence between lip service and actual faith (Luke 11:39-40, Matthew 23:25-28, Matthew 15:8)

 

[justbyfaith]

I said this:
" And I've done that. With John 5:24 and 6:47 to show from Scripture that WHEN a person believes, they POSSESS eternal life, by the phrases "whoever believes...HAS" and "the one believing HAS".

Then from John 10:28a I showed CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing eternal life.

The CAUSE of possessing eternal life is Jesus Christ, who said, "I give them eternal life". From the previous 2 verses, the "them" refers to whoever believes and the one believing. Obviously.

The EFECT of possessing eternal life is eternal security, by the phrase "and they shall never perish".

The "they" refers back to the "them" in the first phrase.

Therefore, at the very MOMENT one places their faith/trust in Jesus Christ for salvation, they POSSESS eternal life. And the result is very obvious; they shall never perish.

If you or anyone else can unpack these points, please proceed."

And the non-responsive reply to what I said:

Thanks for ignoring the verses I posted. Why would anyone think the verses you've shared somehow remove the clear meaning of the verses I shared?

Anyhoo, this response did not unpack anything I posted.

If anything I posted is unbiblical, it should be easy to unpack.

How do your verses remove the clear meaning of the verses posted by him? The answer is, they don't, so you must needs take them into account when forming your theology.

 

[BNR32FAN]

"Speaking against the Holy Spirit" is the context. And the other passage where the unpardonable sin is mentioned, it is specifically about ascribing the miracles of Jesus to the devil.


Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit would be ascribing His power in miracles to the devil.


The key always is "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit", which is ascribing the power of the miracles of Jesus to the devil.


Well, where is the reference?

I’m sorry I thought you might’ve seen it.

“Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God: But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God. And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭12:8-10

““Anyone who isn’t with me opposes me, and anyone who isn’t working with me is actually working against me. “So I tell you, every sin and blasphemy can be forgiven—except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which will never be forgiven. Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭12:30-32‬

 

[justbyfaith]

Really, I have seen over and over and over again folks who take all the 'loss of salvation' verses and give very truthful exegesis of them. Loss of blessings, loss of reward, discipline and the such.

But I have NEVER seen a loss of salvation adherent exegete a clear eternal security verse.

Freegrace has asked a thousand times for someone to exegete John 10:28 compared to his exegesis. I have yet to see someone in the loss of salvation crowd even attempt to exegete that verse. Personal opinions, interpretations and pitting scripture against scripture is all I have seen.

See, a true exegesis of John 10:28, if Freegrace is wrong.......will prove that "never perish" actually means......."may perish" or "might perish." But it can't be done so the loss of salvation crowd has to deflect or pit scripture against scripture.

John 10:28 only applies to Jesus' sheep, who are defined in John 10:27. Context. Cease to be one of His sheep, the promise no longer applies.

 

[justbyfaith]

I said this:
"There is nothing obvious about "falling" meaning loss of salvation in this passage. Such a view comes from a pretext."

Then demonstrate from the text how this so-called "implication" exists.


Which happens to be the point. No one is saved from "day to day faith". That's what is called "lifestyle faith", or trusting God for one's daily necessities. Where does the Bible claim day to day faith for salvation? No where is whrere.


It doesn't tell us that at all. Just more assumption with opinion.


How so?


It means loss of God's blessings.


Absolutely. Consider the human side of the comparison between Parent and child. When the child is obedient, they receive their Parent's blessings. But when they rebel, they receive, not blessings, but the Parent's discipline.


Both, of course.


Well, we've seen enough of that.

I said:
"When the Bible says "obey the gospel" is means to believe the promise of the Good News. Obviously."

Your response:

Once again, I didn't. Here is John 3:36 - Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects (apietho) the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

NT:544 apeitheo (ap-i-theh'-o); from NT:545; to disbelieve (wilfully and perversely):
KJV - not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving.


Sure is. Same as "believe".


Show me where the Greek word pietho is used for submission to authority, or complying with commands for salvation.


Says you. Paul disagrees with your opinion.

Acts 16:
30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

There is NOTHING in the Greek word 'pisteuo' (believe) that even hints of obedience.

It's all about trusting in what Jesus did for you on the cross.


V.9-end of chapter does not occur in the earliest and most reliable manuscripts.

Further, there are NO OTHER verses in the entire Bible that say that one must be baptized to be saved.

2 Corinthians 6:1-2, "TODAY IS THE DAY OF SALVATION". This is not merely a verse given so that the evangelist can call the sinner to salvation now, so that he doesn't put off his decision for Christ. It is telling us that ae salvation is from moment to moment, and has to do with us not hardening our hearts from moment to moment.