SALVATION offered by Jesus: COMPLETED and IRREVOCABLE

[justbyfaith]

Please cite the post where I disagreed with 1 John 2:4. I do recall explaining what that verse means. So I disagree with your view of that verse. That doesn't mean I have disagreed with the verse itself.

There's a big difference.

Just start paying closer attention. I'm not going to do all your studying for you.

 

[justbyfaith]

But all words mean things. This just seems to be a big dodge in what John 10:28 clearly says.

Which is why I keep explaining John 10:28, even though it's clear enough.

Where's the clear enough verse that only if believers abide in Christ will they never perish? I haven't found it, in spite of reading through the NT monthly for over a decade.

John 10:28 wasn't the subject of my post.

 

[justbyfaith]

And I hear you, and disagree. Your understanding of "abiding" isn't found in the Bible. And your claim here is not found in the Bible. Or you would have provided a verse that says what you claim.

We are eternally secure, period. You'v added an action that we must execute in order to never perish. But Jesus gave NO SUCH CONDITIONS to recipients of eternal life.

And that is why I explain John 10:28. You've noted that just quoting/citing verses are clear enough in themselves. But it should be obvious to you that those who believe that salvation can be lost read John 10:28 and leave STILL BELIEVING that salvation can be lost.

So I explain what Jesus was teaching. He was teaching the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life. The CAUSE is himself. He is the Giver of eternal life. The EFFECT of having eternal life is never perishing.

And NO ONE has yet provided an explanation that Jesus wasn't teaching what i have just explained.

My understanding of abiding IS INDEED found in the Bible. I have quoted the verses numerous times. They are 1 John 2:17, 1 John 3:6, and John 15:6. If you can't see this, I can think of no other reason than what is spoken of in 2 Corinthians 4:4; maybe also 1 John 4:5-6.

 

[FreeGrace2]

John 11:25
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.

"I am the resurrection and the life" symbolizes that resurrection and life are from Him and not from another; "he that believes in Me" denotes, he that believes in the Lord's Divine and believes that He is the omnipotent and only God; and as no one can believe this except he that lives a life of charity, therefore a life of charity, is also meant by "believing in Him.

People can make up anything they want.

The Greek word for 'believe' does not include a "life of charity".

In fact, once a person believes in Christ, they are commanded to a life of charity.

So, you're having problems with a horse and cart, it seems.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Apparently you've not ever read 1 John 1:8 or 10.

I noticed you took one statement out of its context, ignoring the proof.

So, in answer to your response:

1 John 1:8 is speaking of indwelling sin, not practical sin in the present and future tense.

What evidence is there for this definition of what "sin" means in 1 Jn 1:8? Please explain yourself.

1 John 1:10 is speaking of practical sin in the past tense, not practical sin in the present and future tense.

Once more, please present evidence if this is true. What I'm seeing is an opinion, not stated fact.

The element of sin can be rendered dead (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8); so that it no longer has any say over our behaviour. It is put in remission (Acts of the Apostles 2:38, Hebrews 9:22). It is still there but is no longer a threat to the spiritual health

I guess by "spiritual health" is a reference to the believer's new nature which has been born again, and possesses eternal life. So, yes, a life that is eternal cannot be threatened by anything, since it is eternal.

And this directly relates to eternal security, which Jesus taught in John 10:28. Those given eternal life shall never perish.

just as a cancer that is in remission is no longer a threat to the physical health.

Except cancer CAN return. That's why doctors use the word "remission" instead of cure regarding cancer.

But what Jesus did was to CURE the effect of sin, which is eternal death. Believers shall never perish (die). Now, that's a cure. For sure.

And please allow me to add that when we allow the element of sin to control us, so that we commit sin in the practical sense, it immediately becomes a threat to our spiritual health. See James 1:14-16.

Please explain what you mean here. How does "sin in the practical sense" threatens our spiritual health?

You will need to define the phrase "sin in the practical sense" and differentiate it from "indwelling sin".

You will also need to define "spiritual health".

Thanks.

 

[FreeGrace2]

People have eyes to see, and will understand that the logical conclusion of your thinking, based on everything presented, is that Jesus is in the lake of fire.

What is the post # where I made this supposed comment? Do you have the proof or not?

But of course your thinking is faulty.

No, it is clear that your understanding of my thinking is quite faulty.

So I am quite alright, thank you.

It doesn't appear so.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Again, the Holy Ghost teaches us when we compare scipture with scripture; and nothing more is needed. Adding man's interpreetation only convolutes things and gives opportunity for error in the teaching of man.

If true, then why do so many people (the OSNAS crowd) not believe what John 10:28 plainly says?

That's WHY I've provided the explanation of the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life in that verse. Which cannot be refuted.

So eternal security stands, for every recipient of eternal life. Yet, many still refuse to believe that fact.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
I have NOT. I asked for a post #, and it seems you're only goin' on your memory. You need to do better than that.

I said obedience isn't automatic or guaranteed on the basis of being born again. And I proved it by quoting 2 commands from Paul to believers:
1. STOP grieving the Holy Spirit - Eph 5:18
2. STOP quenching the Holy Spirit - 1 Thess 5:19

Hasn't it occurred to you WHY Paul gave these 2 commands? Because believers DO this. As shown by the imperative mood command which means to STOP.

Add to these commands all the other commands for holy living, etc, and we have proof that righteous living is neither automatic nor guaranteed.

So we have established that He CAUSES a man to obey His statutes and judgments as the result of the new birth.

It seems neither Eph 4:30 (typo in original post) nor 1 Thess 5:19 is true, or that God CAUSES even grieving and quenching of the Spirit by believers.

The spirit gives life. If you think and meditate on what is really being spoken, you will understand, as the scriptures are able to make you wise unto salvation.

I hear you LOUDLY, and I take this as a snarky snip that you don't believe that I'm saved, and have eternal life. That violates the rules of the forum.

You don't have the right to judge my spiritual status. Arrogance may motivate someone to make such a pronouncement, but that still isn't a right.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Please cite the post where I disagreed with 1 John 2:4. I do recall explaining what that verse means. So I disagree with your view of that verse. That doesn't mean I have disagreed with the verse itself.

There's a big difference.

Just start paying closer attention. I'm not going to do all your studying for you.

As I thought. You don't have any post # that indicates that I disagree with 1 John 2:4.

Your claims are empty words.

In the future, it would be wise to refrain from making claims that cannot be proven.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
But all words mean things. This just seems to be a big dodge in what John 10:28 clearly says.

Which is why I keep explaining John 10:28, even though it's clear enough.

John 10:28 wasn't the subject of my post.

I know. I used that verse as an example of WHY one needs to explain verses that they cite/quote, so other posters can understand HOW they are being understood.

 

[FreeGrace2]

My understanding of abiding IS INDEED found in the Bible. I have quoted the verses numerous times. They are 1 John 2:17, 1 John 3:6, and John 15:6. If you can't see this, I can think of no other reason than what is spoken of in 2 Corinthians 4:4; maybe also 1 John 4:5-6.

OK, I am going to quote each verse and show you WHY your view is in error.

1 John 2:17 - The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. NIV In this verse, the word "abides" means "live", obviously. We know the will of God from John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

1 John 3:6 - No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

This verse proves your error in what "abiding" means. If it meant to be "saved", then every saved person would "keep on sinning", but we know better. No believer achieves sinless perfection after salvation. And this verse doesn't teach it either.

John 15:6 - If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

It's never wise to use metaphors or figures of speech to formulate doctrines.

The beginning of this chapter is about fruit bearing, not how to get or stay saved. If a believer is out of fellowship by grieving or quenching the Spirit, how can they bear fruit? It's impossible. That is the Lord's point here. How can you disagree with this fact?

The better understanding is that those who have fellowship (intimacy, meaning they AREN'T grieving or quenching the Spirit) "keeps on sinning". Doesn't that sound much more reasonable than every saved person ceases to sin?

The last part of the verse indicates that the believer who does continue to sin doesn't really know (intimately, you know, fellowship) Him. They sure aren't having fellowship when they are grieving and quenching the Spirit.

Seems to me your understanding of "abide" is about maintaining relationship with God. But how is it possible to maintain relationship with your parents? That relationship cannot be changed or ended.

What does need to be maintained is fellowship with God. Which is only possible through confession for forgiveness of sins and purification of all unrighteousness, and being filled with the Spirit and walking by His means.

Your view leads to the false idea of sinless perfection. My view includes all the facts of Scripture about fellowship with God for fruit bearing, by being filled with the Spirit and walking by His means, and NOT grieving or quenching the Spirit.

This is why explanation is so important.

 

[EmSw]

People can make up anything they want.

The Greek word for 'believe' does not include a "life of charity".

In fact, once a person believes in Christ, they are commanded to a life of charity.

So, you're having problems with a horse and cart, it seems.

How true, you've been making stuff up constantly.

The Greek word for 'enter' does not include 'believe' nor 'faith'.

They are COMMANDED to a life of charity? Really? How do you separate this commandment from believing? Can one trample this command underfoot? Can one disregard this command? Can one ignore this command?

Without the horse, the cart goes nowhere.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"People can make up anything they want.

The Greek word for 'believe' does not include a "life of charity".

In fact, once a person believes in Christ, they are commanded to a life of charity.

So, you're having problems with a horse and cart, it seems."

How true, you've been making stuff up constantly.

Without any evidence, just another empty claim.

The Greek word for 'enter' does not include 'believe' nor 'faith'.

And your point?

They are COMMANDED to a life of charity? Really?

Those who know that the strongest word for "love" in the King James Translation is "charity". So, let's see what the Bible says about a life of love:

Matt 5:43,44, 19:19, 22:37, 39, John 13:34, 35, 14:15, 15:12, 17, Rom 13:8, 1 Cor 13:1-14:1 with special note of 13:13, 16:14, Gal 5:6, 13, 14, Eph 4:15, 5:2, 28, Col 3:19, 1 Thess 4:9 (taught by God to love each other), 1 Tim 1:5 (goal of this command is love).

This is just a sample of the commands to love each other, love your neighbor, love your enemies.

How do you separate this commandment from believing?

Easy. By consulting any Greek lexicon and reading the definitions of each word.

Can one trample this command underfoot? Can one disregard this command? Can one ignore this command?

Sure can. Why else would this command be given if it accompanied faith? That would make no sense. Kinda like a doctor telling a newborn to keep breathing. Or anyone, for that matter. Duh.

The very nature of a command is that it can be ignored or not followed.

Without the horse, the cart goes nowhere.

Are you really suggesting that faith without love goes nowhere?

Why does the Bible command believers to love God and love Jesus Christ then?

 

[EmSw]

I said:
"People can make up anything they want.

The Greek word for 'believe' does not include a "life of charity".

In fact, once a person believes in Christ, they are commanded to a life of charity.

So, you're having problems with a horse and cart, it seems."

Without any evidence, just another empty claim.


And your point?

By consulting any Greek lexicon and reading the definitions of each word. Is that the rule you live by? We shall see how don't consult any lexicon for definitions if they conflict with your belief.

Those who know that the strongest word for "love" in the King James Translation is "charity". So, let's see what the Bible says about a life of love:

Matt 5:43,44, 19:19, 22:37, 39, John 13:34, 35, 14:15, 15:12, 17, Rom 13:8, 1 Cor 13:1-14:1 with special note of 13:13, 16:14, Gal 5:6, 13, 14, Eph 4:15, 5:2, 28, Col 3:19, 1 Thess 4:9 (taught by God to love each other), 1 Tim 1:5 (goal of this command is love).

This is just a sample of the commands to love each other, love your neighbor, love your enemies.

Hmmm. Sounds like the commandments in which Jesus said to keep to enter eternal life.

Easy. By consulting any Greek lexicon and reading the definitions of each word.

Sure can. Why else would this command be given if it accompanied faith? That would make no sense. Kinda like a doctor telling a newborn to keep breathing. Or anyone, for that matter. Duh.

The very nature of a command is that it can be ignored or not followed.

Very true, the children of the devil ignore them, and the children of God obey them.

Are you really suggesting that faith without love goes nowhere?

Why does the Bible command believers to love God and love Jesus Christ then?

Yes, faith without love goes nowhere.

It shows they love Him, it shows they worship Him, it shows they have submitted to Him, it shows they are serious about Him, and it shows they can do nothing without Him.

John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

 

[justbyfaith]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
I have NOT. I asked for a post #, and it seems you're only goin' on your memory. You need to do better than that.

I said obedience isn't automatic or guaranteed on the basis of being born again. And I proved it by quoting 2 commands from Paul to believers:
1. STOP grieving the Holy Spirit - Eph 5:18
2. STOP quenching the Holy Spirit - 1 Thess 5:19

Hasn't it occurred to you WHY Paul gave these 2 commands? Because believers DO this. As shown by the imperative mood command which means to STOP.

Add to these commands all the other commands for holy living, etc, and we have proof that righteous living is neither automatic nor guaranteed.


It seems neither Eph 4:30 (typo in original post) nor 1 Thess 5:19 is true, or that God CAUSES even grieving and quenching of the Spirit by believers.


I hear you LOUDLY, and I take this as a snarky snip that you don't believe that I'm saved, and have eternal life. That violates the rules of the forum.

You don't have the right to judge my spiritual status. Arrogance may motivate someone to make such a pronouncement, but that still isn't a right.

It wasn't my intention to judge your salvation. I was merely thinking along the lines of what it says in 2 Timothy 3:15. If Paul haf been ministering to Timothy in a forum like this, would he have been judging his salvation and breaking the rules of the forum? I'll reiterate therefore and say that the scriptures are able to make EACH AND EVERY ONE OF US wise unto salvaton through continued faith in Jesus Christ; and that this is scriptural truth.

 

[justbyfaith]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Please cite the post where I disagreed with 1 John 2:4. I do recall explaining what that verse means. So I disagree with your view of that verse. That doesn't mean I have disagreed with the verse itself.

There's a big difference.

As I thought. You don't have any post # that indicates that I disagree with 1 John 2:4.

Your claims are empty words.

In the future, it would be wise to refrain from making claims that cannot be proven.

It was the post I originally responded to; but it seems you are willfully blind so that you cannot see this simple fact.

 

[justbyfaith]

OK, I am going to quote each verse and show you WHY your view is in error.

1 John 2:17 - The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. NIV In this verse, the word "abides" means "live", obviously. We know the will of God from John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

1 John 3:6 - No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

This verse proves your error in what "abiding" means. If it meant to be "saved", then every saved person would "keep on sinning", but we know better. No believer achieves sinless perfection after salvation. And this verse doesn't teach it either.

John 15:6 - If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

It's never wise to use metaphors or figures of speech to formulate doctrines.

The beginning of this chapter is about fruit bearing, not how to get or stay saved. If a believer is out of fellowship by grieving or quenching the Spirit, how can they bear fruit? It's impossible. That is the Lord's point here. How can you disagree with this fact?

The better understanding is that those who have fellowship (intimacy, meaning they AREN'T grieving or quenching the Spirit) "keeps on sinning". Doesn't that sound much more reasonable than every saved person ceases to sin?

The last part of the verse indicates that the believer who does continue to sin doesn't really know (intimately, you know, fellowship) Him. They sure aren't having fellowship when they are grieving and quenching the Spirit.

Seems to me your understanding of "abide" is about maintaining relationship with God. But how is it possible to maintain relationship with your parents? That relationship cannot be changed or ended.

What does need to be maintained is fellowship with God. Which is only possible through confession for forgiveness of sins and purification of all unrighteousness, and being filled with the Spirit and walking by His means.

Your view leads to the false idea of sinless perfection. My view includes all the facts of Scripture about fellowship with God for fruit bearing, by being filled with the Spirit and walking by His means, and NOT grieving or quenching the Spirit.

This is why explanation is so important.

The way to life is narrow and few there be that find it. I believe you have rejected the kjv for the niv and others because of itching ears (2 Timothy 4:1-4); and in doing so you are attempting to enter in through a broader way than is prescribed by the Lord (see Matthew 7:134-14). I can see where the miscommunication lies. You are reading a Bible that says something ENTIRELY DIFFERENT than the Bible I am quoting from. God works all things to the good. So if I am not proving one point, at least I am proving another, that many Bible translations detract from unity.

 

[justbyfaith]

I said:
"People can make up anything they want.

The Greek word for 'believe' does not include a "life of charity".

In fact, once a person believes in Christ, they are commanded to a life of charity.

So, you're having problems with a horse and cart, it seems."

Without any evidence, just another empty claim.


And your point?


Those who know that the strongest word for "love" in the King James Translation is "charity". So, let's see what the Bible says about a life of love:

Matt 5:43,44, 19:19, 22:37, 39, John 13:34, 35, 14:15, 15:12, 17, Rom 13:8, 1 Cor 13:1-14:1 with special note of 13:13, 16:14, Gal 5:6, 13, 14, Eph 4:15, 5:2, 28, Col 3:19, 1 Thess 4:9 (taught by God to love each other), 1 Tim 1:5 (goal of this command is love).

This is just a sample of the commands to love each other, love your neighbor, love your enemies.


Easy. By consulting any Greek lexicon and reading the definitions of each word.


Sure can. Why else would this command be given if it accompanied faith? That would make no sense. Kinda like a doctor telling a newborn to keep breathing. Or anyone, for that matter. Duh.

The very nature of a command is that it can be ignored or not followed.


Are you really suggesting that faith without love goes nowhere?

Why does the Bible command believers to love God and love Jesus Christ then?

And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God IS SHED ABROAD IN OUR HEARTS by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

 

[justbyfaith]

If true, then why do so many people (the OSNAS crowd) not believe what John 10:28 plainly says?

That's WHY I've provided the explanation of the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life in that verse. Which cannot be refuted.

So eternal security stands, for every recipient of eternal life. Yet, many still refuse to believe that fact.

Probably the same reason wny you don't believe what it says in 1 John 2:17 and 1 John 3:6 say together in the kjv and a few other translations. They refuse to accept the testimony of scripture; and perhaps maybe even turn away from what the scripture is really saying to them by going to a watered-down version because of itching ears.

 

[justbyfaith]

You CAN walk in total victory over sin. If you want it, memorize 1 Corinthians 10:13, which says YOU ARE ABLE to deal with temptation victoriously. Philippians 4:13, which says you CAN DO ALL THINGS THROUGH CHRIST WHICH STRENGTHENETH YOU. Ephesians 3:16, which teaches that YOU ARE STRENGTHENED WITH MIGHT BY HIS SPIRIT IN THE INNER MAN. And Colossians 1:11, which says you ARE STRENGTHENED WITH ALL MIGHT ACCORDING TO HIS GLORIOUS POWER, UNTO ALL PATIENCE AND LONGSUFFERING WITH JOYFULNESS. The third time it shall do double damage; and I consider that the third and fourth verses quoted are practically one.